CA CA - Bob Harrod, 81, Orange County, 27 July 2009 - #15

[TDW59]

Andrew has already testified that his grandfather was not an email type person.
According to the memorablia list, there was a computer at Bob's that belonged to Andrew.

This deposition is long (not finished).....it is confusing. More than once the attnys become befuddled regarding the documents and spend considerable time attempting to sort them out.

Cubby, I think you are right. Any prosecution of this issue would prevent it being admissable later.

sweet dreams

 

[shana]

Andrew has already testified that his grandfather was not an email type person.
According to the memorablia list, there was a computer at Bob's that belonged to Andrew.

Not at all surprising. The man was 81 yrs old and didn't like working with a cell phone that the BL gave to him, either. It is not unusual for children or grands to place a computer in the home of an older relative, for a variety of reasons.

This deposition is long (not finished).....it is confusing. More than once the attnys become befuddled regarding the documents and spend considerable time attempting to sort them out.

Yes indeed, the atty who had called for this depo was highly disorganized. This has been addressed way upthread.

snipped

My responses are within, colored blue.

 

[ELB]

I'm new to WS and this is only my second post. I do have some ideas on the disappearance of Bob Harrod. If Fontelle had not re-entered his life, is it possible that he would have disappeared or met foul play anyway? Because clearly other family members were very interested in Bob's money. But because Bob married Fontelle, the plans to do something to Bob were sped up. Especially since he was going to put his new wife's name on his checking account, house and estate, and wanted this done before Fontelle came back on wednesday.
He was clearly upset and had been for a long time, by his money hungry family. Fontelle was his soft place to fall, which he desperately needed. She stated herself she was never interested in his money. I think the POI was able to get him in his/her car by suggesting he/her take him to the bank and other places to get Fontelle's name on what he wanted. To gain his trust, so he wouldn't have to drive himself, "you'll get this done faster" if "I" take you around. We really don't know what was said to him on those Monday morning phone calls. Also, according to his SIL, he went missing around the times that banks open, 10 am, and other such places. He, Bob, thought he'd back in plenty of time to let the cleaning lady in, if someone else drove him around and I think that's how he/she was able to get Bob in the car that led to his disappearance. I don't believe he went out for a walk.
I believe Fontelle when she said that Bob's daughters tried to kick her out of Bob's house. Interesting how different the daughters see every one else but themselves as being angry or argumentive, never them.
I want to know what took his SIL so long upstairs, when the CL wanted him to see if Bob was upstairs? Why was this the first time in 10 years that the CL said Bob's bed was unmade, even when his first wife was alive? Is that what the SIL was doing, unmaking the bed, but why, especially if Bob was still there until 10 am? Maybe there was a sheet or blanket missing. When I watched the Disappeared episode that featured this case I found it odd that neither his 3rd daughter Ju or his SIL was ever heard from, but the other two daughters were filmed and spoke. I remember when this actually happened as I too live in southern California.
It's too bad that Bob's generation didn't grow up with cell phones, because I assume he didn't have one, since it was never mentioned. This is one time a cell phone would come in handy for him. Poor Fontelle, she says the last thing on her mind is Bob, before she goes to sleep and he's the first thing she thinks of when she wakes.

 

[shana]

There is nothing nefarious about a 20-yo male changing his surname; furthermore, not knowing why Andrew chose to do so long ago is a considerable piece of missing information.

Such surname changes are done in some families, when there is no heir to carry-on the family name (Mr Harrod's children were all females).

It does not surprise me in the least that Mr Harrod was partial to his one & only grandson, and potential then eventual heir to the family name.

To add, I think directly naming AH to have possibly engaged in various unlawful acts as posted above is skating on the edge of a very slippery rink.

Finally, if you take the time to review the depo and its attachments, AH did NOT have a debt to Mr Harrod or the Family Trust anywhere near $700k; in fact, it's likely the Trust was satisfied. This too has been posted way upthread. It's simple math.

 

[shana]

It is not atypical for Trustee(s) to set-out at inception some assets outside of the Trust itself. Part of the process of setting-up the Trust is its funding: houses, cars, bank/investment accounts, etc. I do not recall the guidelines but the sum of $100k comes to mind. The purpose in keeping some liquid/cash assets OUT of the Trust is so they can be accessed more readily upon the death of the Trustee(s) as well as incapacity.

Also to add, again, Trusts are not typically recorded. One of the benefits of creating one is that they do NOT have to be recorded or public.

Setting-up your own Trust or being involved in the Administration of others is a way to understand. As well, there is so much information on the Internet to help those not in such positions to learn.

Once again, re the so-called and badly named Poison Pen Letter:

Trust Beneficiaries’ Bill of Rights

Just a simple primer, but helpful nonetheless.

 

[Cubby]

I think the 10K Bob designated for AH in the estate shows just how 'partial' Bob was to his only grandson.

 

[shana]

So, to follow-up on my post above, it seems that Mr Harrod may have intended to include his new wife on one or some of his personal checking accounts (however many he retained...I'm thinking just one). He could not have included her on those which were setup for the Trust, obviously, as she was not a Trustee.

I also think there is a good possibility that Mr Harrod intended to put her name on some household accounts; namely, those for utilities and such. As Trustee (the house is in the Family Trust), he could have authorized her as a contact person. Example: She might want a phone jack in another room, but the telco would not take her order unless Mr Harrod had placed her on his verizon account.

Once a property is placed in Trust, only the named Trustee(s) can deal with such things, minor though they may seem.

Also, considering Mr Harrod's history, I seriously doubt he would be ready after such a short time to place anyone in a position of authority in matters related to the established Family Trust, and most particularly including his own assets. There is a good and sound reason he had not done so after his quick marriage. He may have, in time, for his 1/2 of the Estate, but not so quickly...or he may not have. I give him due credit because I figure he was just that careful with his finances.

Finally, he may have considered a bequest for her to be added, but I doubt he would have upset the Trust by changing his half in such a material way. He appears to me to be just too smart for that.

As always, the above is my opinion only.

 

[shana]

I think the 10K Bob designated for AH in the estate shows just how 'partial' Bob was to his only grandson.

Mr/Mrs Harrod may have felt that leaving the family trust/assets to their children in equal shares was sufficient and proper. This is not unusual. A small sum of $10k could be construed as a remembrance as well. And apart from all of that, posts above seem to indicate that AH was treated quite favorably...it can't be both ways.

 

[shana]

It amazes me that ppl are considering with such seriousness a TV drama produced well over a year ago. Do you really think that what is seen is all there is? Welcome to Hollywood! There are hours of interviews on the cutting room floor, and the snippets that were selected, together with the voice-over narrative, were designed to make the show more intriguing and appealing.

I am appalled that anyone is even trying to armchair DX the interviews with Mr Harrod's 2 daughters 'as seen on TV'. Doing that f2f in such few moments would be bad enough. :-/

The best way to know what is factual in this case and then work from there is to collect exactly what LE has released, and such does not include MSM with its frequent mistakes, only some of which have been noted above. And make of them what you may, it also does not include what Mr Harrod's daughters may have posted on a long-defunct message board. Last of all, it does not include selected 'legal' docs from one side only (as well as irrelevant).

<modsnip>

As again, jmo.

 

[zwiebel]

I'm new to WS and this is only my second post. I do have some ideas on the disappearance of Bob Harrod. If Fontelle had not re-entered his life, is it possible that he would have disappeared or met foul play anyway? Because clearly other family members were very interested in Bob's money. But because Bob married Fontelle, the plans to do something to Bob were sped up. Especially since he was going to put his new wife's name on his checking account, house and estate, and wanted this done before Fontelle came back on wednesday.
He was clearly upset and had been for a long time, by his money hungry family. Fontelle was his soft place to fall, which he desperately needed. She stated herself she was never interested in his money. I think the POI was able to get him in his/her car by suggesting he/her take him to the bank and other places to get Fontelle's name on what he wanted. To gain his trust, so he wouldn't have to drive himself, "you'll get this done faster" if "I" take you around. We really don't know what was said to him on those Monday morning phone calls. Also, according to his SIL, he went missing around the times that banks open, 10 am, and other such places. He, Bob, thought he'd back in plenty of time to let the cleaning lady in, if someone else drove him around and I think that's how he/she was able to get Bob in the car that led to his disappearance. I don't believe he went out for a walk.
I believe Fontelle when she said that Bob's daughters tried to kick her out of Bob's house. Interesting how different the daughters see every one else but themselves as being angry or argumentive, never them.
I want to know what took his SIL so long upstairs, when the CL wanted him to see if Bob was upstairs? Why was this the first time in 10 years that the CL said Bob's bed was unmade, even when his first wife was alive? Is that what the SIL was doing, unmaking the bed, but why, especially if Bob was still there until 10 am? Maybe there was a sheet or blanket missing. When I watched the Disappeared episode that featured this case I found it odd that neither his 3rd daughter Ju or his SIL was ever heard from, but the other two daughters were filmed and spoke. I remember when this actually happened as I too live in southern California.
It's too bad that Bob's generation didn't grow up with cell phones, because I assume he didn't have one, since it was never mentioned. This is one time a cell phone would come in handy for him. Poor Fontelle, she says the last thing on her mind is Bob, before she goes to sleep and he's the first thing she thinks of when she wakes.

Welcome Elb! Thank you for posting on Bob's thread!

It's fascinating that you recall the time when Bob originally disappeared. Could you tell me, do you recall thinking or hearing about the case after that? Did you know Bob was still missing, or did you presume he had been found by now?

Did you get any impression when he first vanished, about what might have happened to him?

 

[zwiebel]

BBM

It amazes me that ppl are considering with such seriousness a TV drama produced well over a year ago. Do you really think that what is seen is all there is? Welcome to Hollywood! There are hours of interviews on the cutting room floor, and the snippets that were selected, together with the voice-over narrative, were designed to make the show more intriguing and appealing.

I am appalled that anyone is even trying to armchair DX the interviews with Mr Harrod's 2 daughters 'as seen on TV'. Doing that f2f in such few moments would be bad enough. :-/

The best way to know what is factual in this case and then work from there is to collect exactly what LE has released, and such does not include MSM with its frequent mistakes, only some of which have been noted above. And make of them what you may, it also does not include what Mr Harrod's daughters may have posted on a long-defunct message board. Last of all, it does not include selected 'legal' docs from one side only (as well as irrelevant).

Critical thinkers would do well to research this case for facts, not theories, about the relatives of a MP and their alleged culpability in his disappearance.

As again, jmo.

Do you mean released via press releases or by some other means? Do you have a collection I've missed? If so, could you possibly share? I hate to think there is a load of info out there I've missed.

 

[TDW59]

BBM


Do you mean released via press releases or by some other means? Do you have a collection I've missed? If so, could you possibly share? I hate to think there is a load of info out there I've missed.

Indeed, that would be most critical information and much appreciated.

I am not finished with inputting the deposition. Mr. Algorri would be somewhat confused by the documentation as this was the first he got to see what was produced and brought to the hearing. Ms. Kemp should have been on top of all that.

If there is a particular legal document that we have missed or that would shed light into this case, I would be happy to hear of it. I haven't finished reading the documents yet, instead I read all the threads/posts first...and have started re-reading them again as it is too much to take in at one time.

 

[cloudajo]

It amazes me that ppl are considering with such seriousness a TV drama produced well over a year ago. Do you really think that what is seen is all there is? Welcome to Hollywood! There are hours of interviews on the cutting room floor, and the snippets that were selected, together with the voice-over narrative, were designed to make the show more intriguing and appealing.

I am appalled that anyone is even trying to armchair DX the interviews with Mr Harrod's 2 daughters 'as seen on TV'. Doing that f2f in such few moments would be bad enough. :-/

The best way to know what is factual in this case and then work from there is to collect exactly what LE has released, and such does not include MSM with its frequent mistakes, only some of which have been noted above. And make of them what you may, it also does not include what Mr Harrod's daughters may have posted on a long-defunct message board. Last of all, it does not include selected 'legal' docs from one side only (as well as irrelevant).

Critical thinkers would do well to research this case for facts, not theories, about the relatives of a MP and their alleged culpability in his disappearance.

As again, jmo.

I understand this is your opinion, but I personally look at and consider any/all information made available to me. And that includes the daughters' postings on 5 different message boards, including this one.

 

[TDW59]

Hey guys, I wanted to add something. As some of you know, I have obtained the court documents from the courthouse. Since I stated that, I have had requests to put the documents online so all can view them. I am reluctant to do that for many reasons, primarily because I have not been immersed enough in the case to feel comfortable enough taking certain steps or divulging certain things. I;m not trying to be cryptic at all, or evasive. I just don't want to do anything that could hurt the investigation in any way or that could hurt Mrs. Harrod.

For example, in the probate case, the girls have demanded that a certain document be sealed and kept secret. That would be the grandson's deal with the girls, regarding the house Mr. Harrod gave him. Once of the arguments for keeping the agreement secret was that Mrs. Harrod was allowing documents to be posted online. Which is laughable. Many people now have those documents.

In any event, there may be some documents that I feel comfortable posting myself but right now, that's not the case. However, anyone can get them. They are unavailable via online but you can order them by mail:

Ordering Copies:

Certification and Copying Fees Schedule
Copies are available per page. If a document is to be certified, an additional fee is required per document.
Exemplifications (Authentications) can be issued if requested
Clerk's Certificates of Facts may be purchased for a fee.
You may request copies by mail.

Requests by Mail

You must indicate “Probate Operations” on the envelope to ensure proper delivery; if the request is not addressed properly it may be returned to you.

Send your written request, including a self-addressed, stamped return envelope with sufficient postage. List the form number or the exact title of the form in your request. Mail to:
Superior Court of California, County of Orange
Probate Operations
341 The City Drive
Orange, CA 92868
You will need to include the following in your request:
Case number
Case name
Indicate “entire file” or specify the documents by title
Specify the date filed (if unknown, give approximate year of filing)
Make check payable to “Clerk of the Court”
Include a self-addressed return envelope with sufficient postage for the return of copies
http://www.occourts.org/directory/pr...formation.html


Here are the relevant case numbers: 30-2009-00297798-PR-TR-LJC (the trust case) and 30-2009-00291267-PR-CE-LJC (the conservatorship case).



30-2008-00068771-PR-OP-LJC (Georgia Harrod's safekeeping will case. But note that I saw no evidence of recorded documents in that case).


The title for the conservatorship case is HARROD - CONSERVATORSHIP.


The title for the probate case is HARROD - TRUST.


The title for Georgia's case is HARROD-SAFEKEEPING WILL.



In order to know what documents you need and thus how much money you should send to the clerk for your copies, (don't forget return postage costs and boxes or large mailers for the documents), you can find a list of each documents by searching for the case you want to access, here: https://ocapps.occourts.org/ProbPubv2/Home.do

It's 50 cents per page and do not get certified copies. You don't need them certified and that is an extra $25.00 per document.

I hope that helps, guys.

ETA: The total amount of documents for both files is about two reams of copy paper. So weigh that and figure out postage for that. That's what you will need to send to the court if you want the whole file. It's MUCH cheaper to order single docs.!!!
____

 

[believe09]

There is nothing nefarious about a 20-yo male changing his surname; furthermore, not knowing why Andrew chose to do so long ago is a considerable piece of missing information.

Such surname changes are done in some families, when there is no heir to carry-on the family name (Mr Harrod's children were all females).

It does not surprise me in the least that Mr Harrod was partial to his one & only grandson, and potential then eventual heir to the family name.

To add, I think directly naming AH to have possibly engaged in various unlawful acts as posted above is skating on the edge of a very slippery rink.

Finally, if you take the time to review the depo and its attachments, AH did NOT have a debt to Mr Harrod or the Family Trust anywhere near $700k; in fact, it's likely the Trust was satisfied. This too has been posted way upthread. It's simple math.

If he was partial to his one and only grandson.

What link do you have indicating that Bob wasnt comfortable using a phone that BL gave him, shana? I must have missed that piece of information.

And I agree implicity that there is simple math involved in the co conservators jettisoning of AH's monstrous debt, I just dont agree with yours fwiw. If the trust was satisfied, then why the need for a secret agreement absolving him of it? :waitasec:

 

[TDW59]

Believe, IIRC there was one or more postings about Bob and the cell phone on ROTW or the other one.

The particular comment that sticks in my mind as closely as I can remember it is that:
"He did not know how to answer it. chuckle."

I think I also read that he found the keys too small.

For levity (and also maybe a bit about that generation)....my sis gave my 79 year old father a cell phone and made all payments on it.
Now my Dad is a very smart, well educated and traveled man, do not misunderstand.
But when he drove over 1000 miles to see my sister..she kept calling the cell and got no answer.
:drumroll:
He had put it in the trunk. To him, it was to use in case of emergency..vehicular breakdown or etc.
:floorlaugh:
My niece...the young texter generation gave him a schooling on it when he arrived!
I don't know where the cell is now and don't even have the number. He has no use for it.
His nod to changing technology is to finally use his voicemail.


Now, apologies, I have just discovered that I missed reading the better part of a thread such that I have been redundant. :blushing:
I am getting caught up now, I may have missed more than that.

In the deposition of Andrew Robert Harrod, he names his grandfather's accountant. This would be the person to do Bob's taxes rather than PB -- logically.

Does anyone know the career that PB retired from??

ETA: PB worked in accounting.

 

[bourne]

It amazes me that ppl are considering with such seriousness a TV drama produced well over a year ago. Do you really think that what is seen is all there is? Welcome to Hollywood! There are hours of interviews on the cutting room floor, and the snippets that were selected, together with the voice-over narrative, were designed to make the show more intriguing and appealing.

I am appalled that anyone is even trying to armchair DX the interviews with Mr Harrod's 2 daughters 'as seen on TV'. Doing that f2f in such few moments would be bad enough. :-/

The best way to know what is factual in this case and then work from there is to collect exactly what LE has released, and such does not include MSM with its frequent mistakes, only some of which have been noted above. And make of them what you may, it also does not include what Mr Harrod's daughters may have posted on a long-defunct message board. Last of all, it does not include selected 'legal' docs from one side only (as well as irrelevant).

<modsnip>

As again, jmo.

I find the self-righteous indignation amusing given that this same person picks and chooses from the FEW scanty pieces of information we have as evidence to make her own arguments. :banghead: First, the Disappeared episode is an investigatory factual documentary of what happened to Bob Harrod. It contains pertinent real evidence given by LE and the POIs. So the video has evidentiary information on the case and should be used as ONE piece of information in assessing what may have happened to Bob.

Furthermore, the main gist of WS is to use whatever available information we have garnered from whatever sources necessary in order to entertain discussions of cases, including possible theories. Otherwise, there'd be no point to anyone posting anything in the forum.

 

[dillysmom11]

I'm just joining this discussion after watching the "Disappeared" episode on Bob. Which I found very informative, and an excellent source for getting to know the "players" and their personalities.

One concern I have, and I'm not accusing Fontelle in any way, is that it really isn't typical for a couple to be asked if they want to marry right then- immediately after receiving the license. Has this been discussed? Sorry for coming in late!

Thank you to those who are transcribing and sticking it out for Bob!

 

[TDW59]

Even though the deposition of ARH is lengthy and cumbersome, it IS relevant. LE has stated the motive as money.

Some states have a wait time between marriage license and marriage and others do not. I have lived in many places and seen many variations.

I don't think per WS rules we can discuss BL as a POI.

 

[bourne]

Bourne,
Not trying to put too fine a point on this, but IMO using the term "POI" for Josie the barber would be incorrect. LE has stated that she and her family have solid alibis for the day Mr. Harrod disappeared. She certainly adds a "interesting" aspect to the situation though.

Yes, I understand that. But we're only talking about whether Bob would confide in Josie regarding his personal money matters and his private disputes with his daughters. Prior to Bob gone missing, no one's a POI. lol

To me, I wouldn't trust Josie with a ten-foot pole, given how she had asked Bob for large sums of $money in the past and may/may not have returned the money.