CA CA - Bob Harrod, 81, Orange County, 27 July 2009 - #15

[zwiebel]

Blush. I obviously forgot to save. It is there now; the workshop thread at the very bottom of my sig. It has some interesting nuggets of legal docs there.

 

[Cubby]

BBM What is this in reference to? Who said Bob was phoning and irate with Jeff?

Forgive me if someone else answered already, I'm not caught up with the thread. The post was in reference to RB's comments within the body of the poison pen letter.

hth

 

[Cubby]

Fontelle tells us she called Bob every morning at 10 AM. (Not linking, I think we agree Fontelle makes this statement.)

Okay, coastal-dwelling sleuths, if Fontelle calls at 10 AM in Missouri, is it 8 AM in Placentia? Does she mean 10 AM in Placentia?

Has this been figured out & I missed it? If Bob speaks with Fontelle at 8 AM local time, does that push the (very fluid) timeline at all?

Did JeM possibly arrive while Bob was talking with Fontelle, and the interruption cause Bob to forget about making the bed?

Does the "Bob Harrod is Missing" window really open right after Fontelle's call?

:banghead:

Laughing

10:00 am was never mentioned in relation to the usual morning call time. The 10:00 was refering to the evening call and I am going to assume that is 10:00 pm MO time and 8:00 PM CA time. Otherwise were talking about Fontelle staying up and calling at midnight her time.......

There has been no confirmation that Fontelle spoke with Bob Monday morning. The 10:00 am call could have been anyone. It could have been his attorney who handled the trust and he could have spoken to him Monday morning about setting up an appointment to add Fontelle to some of his accounts.

Or perhaps he was going to make some changes to the trust as a result of what happened at the heated family meeting.

We just do not know what that 10:00 am call Monday morning was about.

 

[Cubby]

Several points about depression:
1) Clinical depression encompasses both exogenous and endogenous causes.
2) No one can diagnose mental illness over the phone or video. What I had given was my opinion that Bob LOOKED depressed, and given the circumstances and stressors he was in (whether external or internal), it is understandable that he would be depressed. He had to struggle, along with his first wife, over a terminal illness. Then she passed away. These are high stressors. Then his daughters gave him he77 over $money matters. This adds to his grief and loss and sadness. He then cut the daughters off from all contact for as much as SIX MONTHS at a time.

He isolated himself and apparently his best friend (a male) relocated to another state so Bob was all ALONE in his grief/sadness/depression. Then he asked Agnes the housekeeper to marry him because he "doesn't want to be alone and wants someone younger so she won't die on him". Additionally, according to his daughters, he might have had some intimate thing going with the barber Josie. And finally he reunites with Fontelle and abruptly marries her.

I'd say we should trust Bob's doctor regards to his health, and the doctor had said he was "the healthiest 81-y.o. he had ever met." I take that to mean Bob was mentally alert and competent. But regardless, given the circumstances, he likely suffered from depression (whether exogenous of endogenous).

However, as I mentioned in previous posts, it would be good to get a solid read on his mental state the DAY he went missing. In the absence of Bob, the only way we can do that is through whomever he made contact with (whether by phone, in person, emails, etc.). That would be the most accurate assessment of what and how he was feeling right before he went missing.

That's all I'm going to say about it. That's my opinion and I stand by it 100%.

Re: deception. How do you know Paula lied? Paula says they didn't speak about including Fontelle in the trust. I tend to believe her as even LE found NO EVIDENCE of Bob making notes of that effect. The trust is a very significant thing, correct?

Since Bob wrote detailed notes about including Fontelle in his checking accounts (which to me is not as important as adding someone to a family trust since the trust would entail hiring lawyers and such whereas adding someone to a checking account simply means a simple trip to the bank), a man this meticulous would surely have written notes about adding Fontelle to the family trust, no? But LE found NO such evidence, vis-a-vis the Disappeared episode.

Along these lines, it might have been that Bob was excited on Monday morning and with Jeff coming for house repairs and Agnes coming to house clean, he might have thought this is the perfect time to go to the bank and add Fontelle to his checking accounts. Perhaps that's where he was headed -- if the bank was within walking distance AND he had his eyeglasses on. This still doesn't jive with his bed being unmade though...

Are there no cameras down the street where Bob lives? I assume LE has checked whatever surveillance videos (homes, traffic, banks, etc.) they can find. Cameras HAD to have captured something...

First, I think Bob asking Agnes to marry him is rumor. I have never seen a legitimate source to that information.

Second, Bob's handwritten notes about adding Fontelle to his accounts, is pictured in the disappeared episode. When you view it again, look for legal size yellow paper. That is the paper Bob used for his notes about adding Fontelle to his accounts.

Maybe someone who has the show on their computer can take a screen shot of those notes and post it?

 

[zwiebel]

Here is the post again about what Georgia left the daughters. It was just a few personal pieces it seems to me, whereas I got the impression from RB's letter the daughters were expecting much more.
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

 

[tamild]

Blush. I obviously forgot to save. It is there now; the workshop thread at the very bottom of my sig. It has some interesting nuggets of legal docs there.

Thank you, thank you, thank you! I thought I had dreamed the whole thing for a minute anic:

I'm not sure what those nuggets are from. Is the full document available anywhere? TIA!

 

[TDW59]

Bourne, My partner just noticed that Bob's ADLs seemed to be okay...going for walks, making the bed, to do lists that got done etc. It was said he wasn't eating properly.
The last known mental status was that he was frustrated and quite upset Sunday night following the family meeting. (Fontelle via phone)
(adls=activities of daily living for those of you unfamiliar with mental illness terminology).
It would be odd if he did not still carry grief for his wife of 59 years.
I agree with going by his Dr's statement and that he had no known medical problems.

Mere curiosity over the euphenism "dark place". It's been used a few times in this case but I have never heard anyone I know say that. Local dialects interest me. No biggie. (and I pay no attention to celebrities either)

Thank you for posting Georgia's wishes! I had never seen that. I did save reading documents until the end..(now).

I am still gobstopped by the one whereby they only made 3 payments to Fontelle, were $50,000 in arrears and then the list of "memorabilia" by which they "denuded" the house.
That made a HUGE impact on my thinking!
Combine that with the vituperous postings made shortly after Bob's disappearance and yes, I think it adds a dimension unseen in the televised brief of the case.

 

[bourne]

First, I think Bob asking Agnes to marry him is rumor. I have never seen a legitimate source to that information.

Second, Bob's handwritten notes about adding Fontelle to his accounts, is pictured in the disappeared episode. When you view it again, look for legal size yellow paper. That is the paper Bob used for his notes about adding Fontelle to his accounts.

Maybe someone who has the show on their computer can take a screen shot of those notes and post it?

Thanks, I only heard about the marriage proposal between Bob and Agnes via a PM, so I have no idea how true it was.

I saw the video, and the narrator/LE said that there was no evidence that Bob was adding Fontelle to the trust. They said there was only evidence in notes that Bob was adding Fontelle to his CHECKING accounts, which I had already stated in prior posts. If there was PROOF re: Bob having written NOTES re: adding Fontelle to the family trust, I did not see it in the video and the narrator/LE clearly states otherwise.

 

[TDW59]

Here is the post again about what Georgia left the daughters. It was just a few personal pieces it seems to me, whereas I got the impression from RB's letter the daughters were expecting much more.
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

They WERE!!!
Remember the 80+ item list, including krugerands? :drumroll:
But, no, I know what you mean.
The 10,000 to Andrew must have been pocket change in light of the missing several hundred thousands of dollars.

I still find that inclusion of pawn slips very, very strange.

 

[Cubby]

Thanks, I only heard about the marriage proposal between Bob and Agnes via a PM, so I have no idea how true it was.

I saw the video, and the narrator/LE said that there was no evidence that Bob was adding Fontelle to the trust. They said there was only evidence in notes that Bob was adding Fontelle to his CHECKING accounts, which I had already stated in prior posts. If there was PROOF re: Bob having written NOTES re: adding Fontelle to the family trust, I did not see it in the video and the narrator/LE clearly states otherwise.

I did not say trust, I said accounts and it was more than just the checking account.

But fwiw, what Fontelle was to be added to, or not, is really irrelevant here other than the civil case is a means for her to keep a spotlight on ensuring things being done with Bob's money is kept on the up and up. And pressure remains on Bob's 'disappearance' until the case is solved.

If not for Fontelle, Bob's daughters, SIL and Grandson would have had a free for all already with Bob's money and his case would have been long since forgotten.

 

[bourne]

Bourne, My partner just noticed that Bob's ADLs seemed to be okay...going for walks, making the bed, to do lists that got done etc. It was said he wasn't eating properly.
The last known mental status was that he was frustrated and quite upset Sunday night following the family meeting. (Fontelle via phone)
(adls=activities of daily living for those of you unfamiliar with mental illness terminology).
It would be odd if he did not still carry grief for his wife of 59 years.
I agree with going by his Dr's statement and that he had no known medical problems.

Mere curiosity over the euphenism "dark place". It's been used a few times in this case but I have never heard anyone I know say that. Local dialects interest me. No biggie. (and I pay no attention to celebrities either)

Thank you for posting Georgia's wishes! I had never seen that. I did save reading documents until the end..(now).

I am still gobstopped by the one whereby they only made 3 payments to Fontelle, were $50,000 in arrears and then the list of "memorabilia" by which they "denuded" the house.
That made a HUGE impact on my thinking!
Combine that with the vituperous postings made shortly after Bob's disappearance and yes, I think it adds a dimension unseen in the televised brief of the case.

I think we're focusing too much on what my impression is about Bob's mental state.

What we should concentrate on, instead, is how Bob himself felt right before he went missing. It's his PROXIMATE state of mind before the disappearance that matters, not what any of us think who weren't with Bob the Monday he went missing.

"Dark place" is not a local term as I've resided in different parts of the US (from the west coast, to midwest to south to east) and also internationally and I've heard similar words used nearly everywhere. It's not a clinical term or local vernacular, it's just a descriptive phrase people likely acquired from reading Hemingway and other literary sources, and means basically that one's sad or something's not quite right. I don't think it contains profound meaning...I hope I've explained it sufficiently.

I haven't caught up with all of the daughters' posts subsequent to Bob's vanishing so I cannot give an opinion as to how vituperative or not they were. Can you provide links to them so I can peruse some of them? TIA

 

[Cubby]

Many of Bob's daughters posts were on the now long gone In Sessions forum, so there are no links...... Someone had saved some of them. Hopefully they'll repost some of them.

Also, if you go back and see CA-EXILE's posts, or his blog, you will see where he mentions copying and saving/printing all the pages before Bob's 1st thread went poof and was taken down at his daughters request at IS.

hth

 

[Cubby]

For those new or newer to Bob's case, here is the link to his friend and neighbor's blog.

http://paulkestes.blogspot.com/2010/07/bob-harrod-missing-one-year.html

 

[bourne]

I did not say trust, I said accounts and it was more than just the checking account.

But fwiw, what Fontelle was to be added to, or not, is really irrelevant here other than the civil case is a means for her to keep a spotlight on ensuring things being done with Bob's money is kept on the up and up. And pressure remains on Bob's 'disappearance' until the case is solved.

If not for Fontelle, Bob's daughters, SIL and Grandson would have had a free for all already with Bob's money and his case would have been long since forgotten.

Yes, and I've also stated the same in the earlier posts. LE has evidence of Bob wanting to add Fontelle to his checking accounts. So I'm not sure what we're disputing here?

It's not irrelevant if Fontelle believes/states that Bob intended to add her to the family trust because THAT was what Fontelle said was THE CRUX of the heated argument on Sunday!

If including Fontelle in the family trust is the reason all he77 broke loose in the family meeting, then that would be MOTIVE for why Bob went missing -- whether of his own accord or as a result of what the daughters/other family members/someone did to him.

I'm not saying Fontelle was lying. I'm questioning whether she heard what she wanted to hear from Bob, that he was considering adding her to the family trust. This is VERY IMPORTANT.

Here's a hypothetical. Let's say you're Bob. You're fed up with your daughters and grandson and SIL hounding you about the trust and money matters. Suddenly you get married to someone whom you assumed was the love of your life. Then this love of your life starts asking you whether you are including her in the trust that your family has been causing you distress over. Don't you think that is significant?

 

[Cubby]

Yes, and I've also stated the same in the earlier posts. LE has evidence of Bob wanting to add Fontelle to his checking accounts. So I'm not sure what we're disputing here?

It's not irrelevant if Fontelle believes/states that Bob intended to add her to the family trust because THAT was what Fontelle said was THE CRUX of the heated argument on Sunday!

If including Fontelle in the family trust is the reason all he77 broke loose in the family meeting, then that would be MOTIVE for why Bob went missing -- whether of his own accord or as a result of what the daughters/other family members/someone did to him.

I'm not saying Fontelle was lying. I'm questioning whether she heard what she wanted to hear from Bob, that he was considering adding her to the family trust. This is VERY IMPORTANT.

Here's a hypothetical. Let's say you're Bob. You're fed up with your daughters and grandson and SIL hounding you about the trust and money matters. Suddenly you get married to someone whom you assumed was the love of your life. Then this love of your life starts asking you whether you are including her in the trust that your family has been causing you distress over. Don't you think that is significant?

But Detective Loomis said Fontelle was unaware of Bob's net worth until after he went missing. So, we can eliminate the possibility of Fontelle nagging Bob about money before his disappearance.

Let me look around for that info from Loomis and when I find it, I will post it. Unless someone else finds that info from Det. Loomis.... I am going to eat before I look for it.

 

[Angelo]

Narrator: Fontelle says the conflict was not over the trust, instead it had to do with another announcement Bob made.

Fontelle: He told the girls that as soon as I got back from Missouri, he was going to add my name to the house, to his checking account, and also to the estate.

Narrator: But, Bob's daughters dispute that he ever said such a thing.

PB: The meeting that was held was not about Fontelle at all. She was not part of the discussion that day. Dad does not share his private or personal matters with anyone. He never had and he continued not to and that's his choice.

Narrator: Police see a possible motive in this discrepancy. Did a family member kill Bob before he could make changes to the trust? They carefully look for any evidence of Bob's intentions regarding Fontelle and his financial holdings.

Det. Radomski: I was able to find that there were talks between Mr. Harrod and Fontelle as far as getting her on checking accounts and stuff of that nature, but there were no changes or amendments made to the trust involving Fontelle.

 

[Cubby]

More importantly, Harrod hadn't signed anything over to Fontelle Harrod by the time he disappeared, and both Loomis and Fontelle Harrod herself said Fontelle had no idea how rich Bob Harrod was before he disappeared.

http://www.ocregister.com/articles/-214111--.html

I'd say it is kind of hard to argue about something prior to one's learning about it. Clearly, Fontelle could not have nagged Bob about something she knew nothing about.

 

[Angelo]

But Detective Loomis said Fontelle was unaware of Bob's net worth until after he went missing. So, we can eliminate the possibility of Fontelle nagging Bob about money before his disappearance.

Let me look around for that info from Loomis and when I find it, I will post it. Unless someone else finds that info from Det. Loomis.... I am going to eat before I look for it.

"Fontelle Harrod and her children by previous marriages wouldn't have anything to gain by Harrod's disappearance, either.

Loomis said that though Fontelle's family isn't wealthy, they are solidly middle-class. More importantly, Harrod hadn't signed anything over to Fontelle Harrod by the time he disappeared, and both Loomis and Fontelle Harrod herself said Fontelle had no idea how rich Bob Harrod was before he disappeared."

http://www.ocregister.com/articles/-214111--.html

 

[bourne]

But Detective Loomis said Fontelle was unaware of Bob's net worth until after he went missing. So, we can eliminate the possibility of Fontelle nagging Bob about money before his disappearance.

Let me look around for that info from Loomis and when I find it, I will post it. Unless someone else finds that info from Det. Loomis.... I am going to eat before I look for it.

A person doesn't need to know someone's net worth to ask about the trust, especially if Bob had informed Fontelle on previous occasions that his daughters were being problematic and harassing him about the family trust.

In this case, it'd be important to narrow down WHEN Fontelle first heard about the trust. Was it only the Sunday evening of the "family meeting", the day before Bob disappeared? Or did she hear about the infighting in the family and about the trust earlier? IDK I'm only asking Q's as every other poster. lol

Disclaimer: I hope nobody thinks I'm siding with the daughters or anyone because I'm not. I have no personal ties to anyone in this case. I know nobody involved. And as always, I try to be as objective as possible in WS cases so we can siphon out the truth and facts from fiction and misinformation. If the daughters or whoever is found to be guilty of having done Bob harm, then I'm all for seeking justice to the fullest extent of the law. As it is, I have no idea who, if anyone, did Bob harm.

 

[Cubby]

Michaels said he returned to the house after 3 p.m. to find the Harrods' longtime maid sitting on the front stoop, saying the door was locked. Bob Harrod talked to the housekeeper on the phone earlier that morning and told her to come.

http://www.ocregister.com/articles/-214111--.html

Well, we know that's a lie because the disappeared episode confirmed the 3:04pm reciept was from the 'second' trip to Home Depot, and it was after the 1st trip to HD he found the housekeeper sitting on the front stoop.

I don't for a second believe Agnes lied about the time she arrived, and I am certain it was before the second trip to HD.