CA CA - Bob Harrod, 81, Orange County, 27 July 2009 - #15

[believe09]

If there are fires in the area, it can help find Bob. I grew up in SoCal and a few times when there were fires 1) fire would burn off the brush and uncover artifacts, junk, etc. and/or 2) firefighters would be tramping around areas that are normally not accessed and find something.

Of course, there is the possibility that it could burn evidence.

Right now the biggest fire is up in Ventura County. There is another one in Jurupa, in the Inland Empire (Riverside, San Bernadino Counties). None up in RS or at the foothills of Placentia.

I see what you mean though Deca. If there were a dead body, with firefighters all over the place, chances are, it might be found. The downside is that fire would destroy evidence.

It is hard to know what to hope for here, but if Bob was taken and dumped in that direction, I pray he is found. I wonder if there will be construction waste/debris of some kind found with him. Maybe that alone might signal his proximity depending on what it is.

For those of you in the affected areas, stay safe.

 

[Oriah]

Okay, I've tried and completely failed with the graph/timeline thing. I'm going to ask someone who is good at that sort of stuff if it's possible. It really is a waste of time for me to try and do it.

I think.......we really, really need a word from LE at this stage. Even if it is just to say the investigation is active, or ongoing. I mean, we have an old article here where LE says the investigation is 'dormant' but not cold, or something. That doesn't sound promising. And 'Long Lost Love' has been and gone.

I think.....people need guidance. Is this a 'recovery investigation'? Is there any possibility LE are looking for a live Bob? Where should people look, if they are looking?

I know the answer to most of us will be obvious, but to others it might not be. I wish those in charge of Bob's case would just say something - anything - officially. People, including the media, need something to go on, to keep his case alive.

BBM:
Not saying this is official in ANY capacity, but imvhe this is now a recovery. If I run a predictability assessment on a SAR program, using the SAR facts we have, it comes out as 97% likely to be a recovery.

But of course, hope springs eternal, miracles happen, and computers screw up.

 

[TDW59]

Wowza, ARH sure seems to have significant memory problems. Do 30ish year olds have dementia?

I wonder if it is possible that in the confidential settlement agreement that the court may have allowed them to sell that property to help re-coup the losses from the loans in default?
That would be a far bigger hit to the assets than all attny fees combined, no matter how it was handled.
That could surely be a cause of anguish for the conservators.

 

[bourne]

BBM:
Not saying this is official in ANY capacity, but imvhe this is now a recovery. If I run a predictability assessment on a SAR program, using the SAR facts we have, it comes out as 97% likely to be a recovery.

But of course, hope springs eternal, miracles happen, and computers screw up.

Hi Oriah, along the same vein, I recall your being a sniffer dog expert.

Do we know if sniffer dogs were used to locate Bob Harrod? What were the results of that search, if any?

If a search using sniffer dogs is made now, do you still believe it's possible for the dogs to find Bob?

 

[TDW59]

More anguish from much earlier on might be only making 3 payments of maintenance to Fontelle as required by the court and being in arrears of over $50,000 and it becoming an issue in the mandatory audit (also late).

I now count 3 who do not like paying on time. (or at all)

 

[Cubby]

Whatever fees the Co-Trustees/Conservators are granted within the terms of the Trust have been earned, together with anguish for which they are not compensated.

~jmo~

This tops the cake, Bob's daughters are complaining about not being compensated for their anguish?

Really? This is a case being investigated as a homicide with the motive being money. The day before Mr. Harrods 'disappearance' his daughters argued with him over his money. A few weeks before Mr. Harrod's 'disappearance' one of his daughters sent a nasty poison pen letter (about money) demanding answers about information that only a lawyer could answer based on how a court might interpret such language. It was reasonable in every aspect that Bob could not answer what an attorney would need to explain.

As much as they view themselves as victims and wish for others to join in on their pity party for themselves, Bob is the victim here. BOB, not his daughters.

If they are suffering any anquish it is of their own doing, by their OWN words and their OWN actions.

The vultures in them just never cease.

 

[believe09]

So where will Bob's remains be recovered? Oriah, I am not sure how the program works, but is there way to gather some information from it regarding the following scenarios?

1.) If the last known alive is around 10AM and we accept that the CL arrived around 12PM and JeM was just coming back, where are some of the areas that seem likely for a search? We would need to take into consideration Monday morning traffic patters in OC right?

2.) Let's say the last known alive was actually early in the AM of 7/27/09 or possibly late evening 7/26/09, where are some areas that seem likely for a search?

3.) The last known alive is around 10AM but there was a hand off of Bob perhaps. We could look at maybe a 10 hour window in this case. What areas might be likely for a search? In this case we would have morning, afternoon and evening traffic patterns to take into consideration in OC.

 

[Cubby]

It's really a shame that the person(s) with the answers to Bob's whereabouts refuses to disclose them.

Perhaps on his/her death bed?

Mr. Harrod deserves to be found. There must be clues on his remains or why keep them hidden for so long? If the COD would not be found after decomp, why keep them hidden rather than found so he could be declared deceased and everyone could collect the big payout they've been waiting for since Georgia's death?

 

[Cubby]

Wowza, ARH sure seems to have significant memory problems. Do 30ish year olds have dementia?

I wonder if it is possible that in the confidential settlement agreement that the court may have allowed them to sell that property to help re-coup the losses from the loans in default?
That would be a far bigger hit to the assets than all attny fees combined, no matter how it was handled.
That could surely be a cause of anguish for the conservators.

BBM. Funny, I thought the same thing. With as many I don't recalls or I don't remembers given by AH, I'd think it quite possible a doctor diagnose him with early onset dementia. I mean, who forgets where they put more than a half million dollars?

 

[TDW59]

DEPOSITION OF ANDREW ROBERT HARROD PART 9

Q: Give me one second here, please.
MR ALGORRI: Terry, do you have any questions.

EXAMINATION

BY MR McGAUGHEY:
Q: Just a few questions going back on the background of the residence on Windlfower.
When you originally purchased the property in June of 1999, the purchase price at that time was approximately how much?
A: I believe 273,000, somewhere in that neighborhood.
Q: And the deed of trust that you executed at that time in favor of the Harrod Family Trust was the amount of $250,000. Was the balance of the purchase price paid for by you?
A: I believe there was a portion paid by me. I believe there was also a second on the property at that point in time.
Q: And who was the second to?
A: Harrod Family Trust.
Q: And do you remember the amount of the second?
A: I don't remember exactly, no.
Q: Then in August of 2003 you executed another deed of trust in favor of the Harrod Family Trust. This is the amount of $325,000; correct?
A: Sounds right.
Q: I can show you Exhibit D, if you'd like to refresh your recollection.
A: That looks correct.
Q: So that basically increased the amount of your obligation to the Harrod Family Trust by $75,000?
A: No, I don't believe so.
Q: Well, the original deed of trust was $250,000?
A: Again, I told you I believe there was a second.
Q: For approximately how much money?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Okay. You said, though, the purchase price was around 270,000?
A: Around there, yes. 270 to 300,000, somewhere in that neighborhood.
Q: Okay. All right. So the second deed of trust to the Harrod Family Trust at the time of purchase then would have been something less than $50,000; is that correct?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Okay. Getting back to the one that was done in 2003 for $325,000, did you receive additional funds at that point in time from the Harrod Family Trust?
A: No, I did not.
Q: What was the purpose, then, of increasing the amount owed to the Harrod Family Trust to $325,000.
A: Again, I explained I don't believe I increased the amount I owed to the Harrod Family Trust with that transaction. I feel like you're asking me the same question over over again.
Q: Well, if you had originally at the time of purchase executed a first deed of trust to the Harrod Family Trust for 250,000, which we have a copy of, and a second which we don't have a copy of, but you've indicated the purchase price was no more than $300,000?
MS KEMP: Objection, mistates the testimony. He's estimating approximately 270 to 300,000.
MR McGAUGHEY: I said no more than 300,000.
MS KEMP: I don't believe he said that. He said it's an approximation.

 

[zwiebel]

BBM:
Not saying this is official in ANY capacity, but imvhe this is now a recovery. If I run a predictability assessment on a SAR program, using the SAR facts we have, it comes out as 97% likely to be a recovery.

But of course, hope springs eternal, miracles happen, and computers screw up.

Thanks for helping out with that one Oriah. It's no surprise. I think hope in such a case is for loved ones, who may really need it to survive the lives they have to. We'd all wish for a miracle, of course.

I'm guessing, if LE have run a predictability program, they've got the same result. Although I have a feeling they came to a conclusion a long time ago - with or without a program - and that is that Bob will never be coming home, unless someone brings him.

 

[zwiebel]

So where will Bob's remains be recovered? Oriah, I am not sure how the program works, but is there way to gather some information from it regarding the following scenarios?

1.) If the last known alive is around 10AM and we accept that the CL arrived around 12PM and JeM was just coming back, where are some of the areas that seem likely for a search? We would need to take into consideration Monday morning traffic patters in OC right?

2.) Let's say the last known alive was actually early in the AM of 7/27/09 or possibly late evening 7/26/09, where are some areas that seem likely for a search?

3.) The last known alive is around 10AM but there was a hand off of Bob perhaps. We could look at maybe a 10 hour window in this case. What areas might be likely for a search? In this case we would have morning, afternoon and evening traffic patterns to take into consideration in OC.

I'm not trying to answer for Oriah, but I have got a view on this so I hope you don't mind if I share.

In my opinion, if we've excluded passing highway killers who may travel far and wide (exclusion reasons being Bob lived in a cul de sac, no-one was just 'passing through'), then we're going with LE. This was not a stranger abduction.

So it was someone Bob knew. Bob knew and socialised with local people. Bodies are usually disposed of within a killer's 'comfort zone'.

This is usually somewhere within the area they know, but far enough away from their own residence that they feel safe. I've forgotten what the distance usually is. I think I recall the thread where a much wiser person than me explained this, and posted a map including the deceased person's location, long before the person was found. I'll go look.

My own feeling is that there was nothing complicated about how and where Bob was left. No storage units or landfills. I think he was driven an hour or so into the hills, discarded like unwanted construction waste and then his killer turned and headed back the way he'd come, hoping his own life could go on just the way it had, while knowing in his heart he'd ruined everything, forever.

I think the person who did this to Bob knew certain nature areas well, and I don't think it was a woman who ended Bob's life and took him away. I think it might be thanks to a woman he is eventually found though.

 

[Seajay]

Fontelle said she talked to Bob every morning and every evening. Yet when she talks about her last convo with Bob, after the "family meeting", I get the impression it was the last time she did talk to him. She didn't talk to him at all on Monday morning??? There has been no mention of a call between Fontell and Bob on Monday morning. I'm wondering about that. And if she didn't talk to him on Monday morning, was she concerned about it??? If she did talk to him on Monday morning, that could be the 10 am verified phone call LE talked about.

 

[Seajay]

What anguish??? I never saw any anguish out of the daughters, other than the anguish over Bob's money. They showed no anguish as they were blasting him online and saying those retched things about him. I have seen no anguish of them pleading in front of cameras for their father's safe return.

Had they spent half the effort trying to find their father as they've spent wanting to be compensated for taking care of Bob's financial affairs, I might be able to see some anguish, but as it is, there has been none.

Without all the lawsuits they've started, taking care of Bob's financial affairs was NOT a full time job as conservators. Paying his bills, making sure his money is safe. If it's gotten complicated and more work, it's due to their own behaviors, not normally associated with a conservatorship. How did they know so early this was going to be a full time job that they quit their day jobs??????

 

[Cubby]

We need to then go over those in the "inner circle"'s comfort zones. I wonder what AH and JeM's routes were too and from their places of employement, when they were employeed.

I also want to consider any undeveloped area's they were familiar with from their HS days. Any undeveloped, more rural hangouts for the Monrovia HS late 60's through early to mid 70's graduating classes.

Though, maybe that should be discussed in more detail down in the SAR thread?

 

[deca]

I'm not trying to answer for Oriah, but I have got a view on this so I hope you don't mind if I share.

In my opinion, if we've excluded passing highway killers who may travel far and wide (exclusion reasons being Bob lived in a cul de sac, no-one was just 'passing through'), then we're going with LE. This was not a stranger abduction.

So it was someone Bob knew. Bob knew and socialised with local people. Bodies are usually disposed of within a killer's 'comfort zone'.

This is usually somewhere within the area they know, but far enough away from their own residence that they feel safe. I've forgotten what the distance usually is. I think I recall the thread where a much wiser person than me explained this, and posted a map including the deceased person's location, long before the person was found. I'll go look.

My own feeling is that there was nothing complicated about how and where Bob was left. No storage units or landfills. I think he was driven an hour or so into the hills, discarded like unwanted construction waste and then his killer turned and headed back the way he'd come, hoping his own life could go on just the way it had, while knowing in his heart he'd ruined everything, forever.

I think the person who did this to Bob knew certain nature areas well, and I don't think it was a woman who ended Bob's life and took him away. I think it might be thanks to a woman he is eventually found though.

BBM. Great writing, by the way.
Like you , I am not an expert.
I agree with everything you said.
Given the proximity of Bob's house to many mountain roads, passes and camps, my guess is he is up there.
My guess is he is not more than an hour away from the house, probably less. IIRC you can get up to the mtns in about 15 minutes?. Think about it. You just killed someone. Maybe you didn't kill him- but he is dead. How long do you want to drive around with a body in your car? Every other car that passes you would bring your blood pressure up. What if they see something? What if they remember your car? God forbid- what if you get pulled over?*
As soon as you find a private place you would try to get rid of him.


*I think it was Marjorie Gayle McCaffery (excuse spelling) whose husband was found speeding on a deserted mountain road on the dead of night hours before he reported her missing? He might have gotten away scot free except some bored small town trooper pulled him over for speeding

 

[zwiebel]

I did hope a ticket could turn up in this case, but I guess it would have surfaced by now, if it existed.

 

[zwiebel]

We need to then go over those in the "inner circle"'s comfort zones. I wonder what AH and JeM's routes were too and from their places of employement, when they were employeed.

I also want to consider any undeveloped area's they were familiar with from their HS days. Any undeveloped, more rural hangouts for the Monrovia HS late 60's through early to mid 70's graduating classes.

Though, maybe that should be discussed in more detail down in the SAR thread?

60s, surfing. Laguna beach. Unless you were a biker, of course.

I wonder where the girls would have hung out? Fairy strict upbringing, but parents nearly always relax with the last one. JuM met JeM fairly young, so they may have run in the same circles. I wonder if they're 'alternative' types.

I agree that finer details might be better off in the SAR thread.

 

[TDW59]

Anguish would be an expected human response to keeping deadly secrets and burying lies. It would be living a nightmarish life; a hated familial bond to some at least, I would like to hope. Continuing to dig in behind denial worsens it. Lashing out doesn't relieve it. Greed and trophies of materialism do not satisfy it. Time does not make it go away. It seems that it has gone on so long that they are entrenched, having lost the possibility or thought of it of revealing and relieving the horror. I wonder if in their innermost hearts they hope LE will do it for them?
Just to have it over with? In the mean time they keep trying to sublimate it in the same old same old that never worked once and only alienates them from the public willing to help and instead makes them repugnant to them.
I refer to the accessories after the fact in this, of course.

 

[Oriah]

Hi Oriah, along the same vein, I recall your being a sniffer dog expert.

Do we know if sniffer dogs were used to locate Bob Harrod? What were the results of that search, if any?

If a search using sniffer dogs is made now, do you still believe it's possible for the dogs to find Bob?

Hi bourne, to the best of my knowledge K9's were not used in any initial searches for Mr. Harrod, which quite honestly is astonishing to me. Not only does that area of CA have excellent dogs and handlers, but an 81 year old man left his residence apparently on foot and never returned. Talk about a live trail.

As for whether or not K9's could still be useful- if there were a particular area of interest to LE, there are K9s trained in forensics and aged scent that are also very good, although few and far between. But there is a team N of Mr. Harrod's residence that has been contacted re: his case.