CA CA - Bob Harrod, 81, Orange County, 27 July 2009 - #17

[zwiebel]

Well, whaddya know.......I knew there had to be something.

It's those foolish, obvious shifts in the time that drive me mad. If they'd just swapped the years about, I probably wouldn't have noticed.

It's not just the time thing I'm noticing from those early posts, either. It is difficult, because posters are talking about posts elsewhere that they have seen and I have not, but........

Early on, people claiming to be Bob's family members, were laying seeds of doubt that Fontelle had known Bob back in MO. But they were not revealing Bob had asked eldest daughter PB to find Fontelle first.

They were posting about the 'new wife' changing the locks. But not revealing son in law's wife had told her to.

They were subtly suggesting Bob had 'dark' associates and business dealings

They were not so subtly accusing the hairdresser of disappearing him - in fact were calling her a POI ( although police never did)

I did notice in the Disappeared episode that a 'someone dark' suggestion came up again from a daughter - was it RB or PB? Maybe she (whoever it was) was that early poster suggesting Bob had dark 'dubious' business dealings. If he did, they are in charge of his money now. If they think it has been made in any illegal or nefarious ways, they have a duty to report it, I'd think.

In fact, I am absolutely sure that if a conservator of a trust believes the money they are charged with has dubious sources, they are absolutely obliged to report it. Bob was a defence contractor with security clearance, I should think. It could be a very, very serious matter if his money came from dubious sources, especially in this day and age. I think they should call in Homeland Security to check all his finances - just to be on the safe side.

I really think Bob's three daughters have manipulated people by telling half truths, or omitting very important information. It isn't too important to me what they did now though - it's the why. It could be, of course, that they had been fed a pack of lies by someone. I wonder who that could have been, if so?

 

[Cubby]

In some courts, half truths are considered outright lies, because they imply there is no further evidence to be found.

 

[Cubby]

IIRC, it was PB who suggested Mrs. Harrod change the door locks. I seem to recall JuM complaining on her community forum she was locked out of her dads house......

 

[Cubby]

Zwie's posts just reminded me of the omittance made by PB in the civil suit against the barber. Didn't PB choose to omit the hand written note her dad wrote indicating the money to the barber was a gift?

 

[zwiebel]

I think there was. A note/notes on yellow paper that PB declined to produce and which probably contributed to the daughters losing the case - and losing the estate's money, I presume?

It really begs the question why the note was not produced; because it contained firm proof Bob had given money, not loaned it and the case was frivolous? Because it contained other information the family did not want revealed at any cost? Because it had been destroyed, but PB did not want to admit that?

It is odd omissions like that the led investigators to say the details lie in the battle for the money, I think. And family haven't helped assuage those concerns by their actions - on one hand they've insisted Bob's money is a purely personal affair and not to be discussed, on the other hand;

they've happily put out details of money he gave to non-family members
what he did spend - or failed to spend on certain people
encouraged others to speculate on Mrs Harrod's finances and her motives in marrying Bob,
encouraged speculation about the finances of virtually everyone EXCEPT bio family
made blatant hints about how Bob may have come by his money in some illegitimate way
made some very unkind remarks about Bob's alleged meanness
apparently pretended they wanted control of the trust to 'help Fontelle', when really they did not want to help her financially at all, unless it was buying her a one-way ticket back to Missouri, imo
blamed their fierce unwillingness to respect their father's wishes and look after Fontelle, on their lawyer. (I know Bob did not get time to put in writing that he wanted his wife to be able to live in their home and have a living allowance from his millions, but does anybody really believe he would not have wished that?)

It has all been very, very foolish in my opinion. It has discouraged people from finding Bob and reflects really badly on the whole family too. Did they forget in casting these aspersions that this wasn't just Bob's money - it was the first Mrs Harrod's too? I don't believe Bob and the first Mrs Harrod gathered their fortune through anything but hard work and careful spending, myself. If police find evidence to the contrary, I'll have to amend that opinion. Doesn't look as though they have found anything so far though.

 

[Grainne Dhu]

I think there was. A note/notes on yellow paper that PB declined to produce and which probably contributed to the daughters losing the case - and losing the estate's money, I presume?

It really begs the question why the note was not produced; because it contained firm proof Bob had given money, not loaned it and the case was frivolous? Because it contained other information the family did not want revealed at any cost? Because it had been destroyed, but PB did not want to admit that?

It is odd omissions like that the led investigators to say the details lie in the battle for the money, I think. And family haven't helped assuage those concerns by their actions - on one hand they've insisted Bob's money is a purely personal affair and not to be discussed, on the other hand;

they've happily put out details of money he gave to non-family members
what he did spend - or failed to spend on certain people
encouraged others to speculate on Mrs Harrod's finances and her motives in marrying Bob,
encouraged speculation about the finances of virtually everyone EXCEPT bio family
made blatant hints about how Bob may have come by his money in some illegitimate way
made some very unkind remarks about Bob's alleged meanness
apparently pretended they wanted control of the trust to 'help Fontelle', when really they did not want to help her financially at all, unless it was buying her a one-way ticket back to Missouri, imo
blamed their fierce unwillingness to respect their father's wishes and look after Fontelle, on their lawyer. (I know Bob did not get time to put in writing that he wanted his wife to be able to live in their home and have a living allowance from his millions, but does anybody really believe he would not have wished that?)

It has all been very, very foolish in my opinion. It has discouraged people from finding Bob and reflects really badly on the whole family too. Did they forget in casting these aspersions that this wasn't just Bob's money - it was the first Mrs Harrod's too? I don't believe Bob and the first Mrs Harrod gathered their fortune through anything but hard work and careful spending, myself. If police find evidence to the contrary, I'll have to amend that opinion. Doesn't look as though they have found anything so far though.

BBM

The hinting around that Bob had illicit income is so stupid. Anyone with half a brain can look at the dates of his life and figure out that he was one of those fortunate people who participated in the biggest investment/real estate booms in history. Urban sprawl turned land that was "near LA" in the 1950s into part of the LA metroplex by the 1980s.

I have a friend and student who lives in the house her parents bequeathed her. It's the same house she grew up in back in the 1960s and I've stayed there. It's a nice house but modest by Iowa standards, which fits her description of her family as being solidly middle class but not wealthy. By LA metroplex standards, it's worth a couple million dollars because it is located extremely well and has a large lot. She says just paying the property taxes on it is like making a mortgage payment.

Bob had a professional career with a professional income and it sounds like he was frugal by nature, as many of the people of his generation have been. Their parents had them during the Great Depression, after all, so they grew up with having to scrimp. Anyone with half a brain knew LA was growing outwards quite fast, so investing in real estate that was modest in price at the time would no doubt increase dramatically in value over the run of a couple decades made perfect sense for a man who had his eyes on the long term goal.

And lo, so it came to be!

Iowa farmland, it's the same thing. It's an inflation proof long term investment and is the reason why so many farmers are "cash poor but land rich." Good farmland in Iowa never loses value except by very unusual circumstances. The world is never going to get tired of eating and Iowa is located on top of some of the most fertile land in the world. Doesn't take a genius to figure out that land will never lose value. It didn't, even in the recent real estate crash; my little farmhouse lost a few thousand in valuation (was still worth more than I paid for it) but my little acreage gained enough more to offset the theoretical loss.

Nothing sinister about any of it. The thing to do if his descendants really think Bob's wealth was ill gotten would be to have a forensic accounting done.

Of course, that is more likely to reveal hinky doings after Bob's disappearance rather than before it. My prediction is that the co-conservators will never willingly consent to anything like that.

 

[sreshowtime]

Accessory and/or Obstruction...rather ranks up there with murder or manslaughter, no?

the CYA-ness is amazing

 

[zwiebel]

Police seem to have come to the same conclusion as you Grainne - they said Bob was a mini real-estate mogul.

Why family couldn't work it out, I don't know. And if they really did think some 'business dealings' were questionable and might have led to Bob's disappearance, why couldn't they just say so, and voice the fears openly and honestly? Instead they seemed to take the form of hints and passing references that are very vague......'a dark person', for example, doesn't give police a lot to go on.

Again though, what's been said doesn't add up. Bob was such a very private person about his financial affairs apparently, his family had no idea what he was worth. Yet at the same time we are asked to accept that he told them his business affairs were somewhat dark, and maybe we are expected to forget they seemed to be well aware - and worried - that he was giving money to people outside the family?

The most useful things family could have discussed in public are the timeline for the 48 hours in which Bob went missing, and why he was worth finding. And how people could help, and which family member or friend to contact if they wanted to volunteer. I bet Bob's friend PE would have helped co-ordinate things or drum up support if he had been asked.

All the wasted opportunities to find Bob make me sad. And I feel even sadder for Fontelle who has always made it clear Bob is worth finding, but still hasn't got him home.

 

[Oriah]

Z, I've a question about your post upthread a bit, about Mr. Harrod's wallet, keys, glasses. Do you know if there are any conflicting news reports about what was found during the initial search? I'm curious because of the possibilty of those items being found shortly after Mr. Harrod's disappearance. In particular, vehicle keys.
TIA.

 

[Cubby]

Accessory and/or Obstruction...rather ranks up there with murder or manslaughter, no?

the CYA-ness is amazing

I've always thought LE had enough evidence for at least obstruction charges but are waiting for the big fish, rather than settling for the little fish.

 

[Cubby]

Z, I've a question about your post upthread a bit, about Mr. Harrod's wallet, keys, glasses. Do you know if there are any conflicting news reports about what was found during the initial search? I'm curious because of the possibilty of those items being found shortly after Mr. Harrod's disappearance. In particular, vehicle keys.
TIA.

Not really an answer to your question, Oriah, but your post made me wonder if anyone had taken Bob's car out of the driveway between the time LE did the well being check Monday evening, and the ramped up investigation on Wednesday the 29th.

I'm going to guess LE did not search the contents of the car until the 29th? When they found the address info for the friends in Balboa Island.

hmm

 

[zwiebel]

Z, I've a question about your post upthread a bit, about Mr. Harrod's wallet, keys, glasses. Do you know if there are any conflicting news reports about what was found during the initial search? I'm curious because of the possibilty of those items being found shortly after Mr. Harrod's disappearance. In particular, vehicle keys.
TIA.

From the very earliest media reports (and son in law's wife JuM was the first to speak to media) Bob's wallet, keys and glasses were said to be missing.

I haven't found anything that particularly refers to vehicle keys, but some of the reports follow 'keys are missing' with 'but his car is in the drive'. I think they are connecting the two, and mean Bob's vehicle and housekeys were gone.

The wallet and keys were gone theme has never changed, as far as I can see.

The missing glasses has. Later, it changed to family not being sure how many pairs he had. Fair enough, but if they didn't know, what made them so sure at first a pair were missing?

I wonder if it was Fontelle returning, and pointing out Bob's glasses were still in the house, that caused that turnaround.

There are a couple of little things about the vehicle keys. I guess Bob had spares. JuM knew where the safe keys were, so I guess she knew where the spare vehicle keys were kept too. Didn't family bother checking the vehicle? If they did, why didn't they find the note police did, indicating Bob had recently been to see old friends?

The second thing is, the Tuesday morning after Bob vanished, JuM turned up at the house and, according to her sister, was 'ambushed' by a camera crew (sister used that as a reason why JuM didn't make a lot of sense with the time). I think it's true they were the last thing she expected to find there. They filmed the outside of the house and the position of Bob's car. That was the morning after the housekeeper was there, and I wonder if she recalled if Bob's car was usually parked there, or if it's position had changed overnight, when he was already missing? Or if police recalled where it was parked when the carried out the welfare check, the night before?

Trouble is, that's the kind of question that has to be asked very soon after the event, because it's not the sort of info most people retain.

So no, I haven't seen any info about anything being found. I don't know if some of our other posters might have noticed a little gem of info over the years though. If you have, please say!

 

[zwiebel]

Sorry, does anyone know what a swap meet is?

ETA I have googled, but it's not clear - is it an organised market, or people selling stuff from vehicles?

 

[zwiebel]

There is a very interesting trial taking place in New England at the moment, where a man is charged with murdering his wife in 1984 and hiding her body in a dry well, beneath the floor of his barn. She was discovered by the new owners in 2010. A tip in the form of a photo of bedding is being used as evidence:

"... a family photo that incidentally portrayed bedding that was similar to the bedding in which Mrs Heath's skeletal remains were wrapped...Det Insalaco had provided that photo...after receiving it from a Heath family friend."

http://www.newtownbee.com/news/news...iner-describes-attack-heath-murder-tri/166257

I'm still wondering if any of Bob's bedding was missing, and if Mrs Harrod was able to tell police what it looked like, if it was.

 

[Grainne Dhu]

The missing glasses has. Later, it changed to family not being sure how many pairs he had. Fair enough, but if they didn't know, what made them so sure at first a pair were missing?

I wonder if it was Fontelle returning, and pointing out Bob's glasses were still in the house, that caused that turnaround.

SBM

Oooooooh, good hypothesis. I remember there was a time when the whole glasses missing/not missing was debated on WS and no one could come up with a likely possible reason for the discrepancy.

I think you did.

I have noticed in over 50 years of wearing glasses that there is a steady turnover of frame styles. Sure, you can go ahead, use your old frames when you get a new prescription but the frames tend to get beat up and they usually need to be replaced as well.

So, you go to the store and there's a bajillion different and ever-so-slightly different frames to choose between. But usually no frames that are identical to the ones you had before.

Which works out fine because if you keep the old pair as emergency backups, you need some way to differentiate between the old and the new when you don't have your glasses on.

Fontelle would certainly recognise the current pair Bob was using. She probably spent more time staring into his eyes in the few weeks they got to spend together than all three of his children did in the last ten years of Bob's life. After all, Fontelle loved him.

All of which makes me wonder if the perp or one of the perps had a mental list of the things that needed to go missing when Bob went missing to make it look like a voluntary disappearance for at least a while. His keys needed to be gone, his wallet needed to be gone, his glasses needed to be gone... but they picked up the wrong pair of glasses.

Slightly tangential: I can't recall for sure but I seem to remember that the Sunday meeting was at Bob's house. One result of that meeting was that it ensured there was an innocent explanation for any fingerprints, hairs or touch DNA found in Bob's house. None of this inconvenient "So-and-so hadn't been in Bob's house for nearly a year, why would that person's fingerprint be found overlaying all others on the <object>?"

 

[Grainne Dhu]

Sorry, does anyone know what a swap meet is?

ETA I have googled, but it's not clear - is it an organised market, or people selling stuff from vehicles?

The California boy (aka Mr Dhu) tells me that when he lived in California, swap meets were usually organised by renting a space from the property owner or organiser. Sometimes the venue provides tables, sometimes it is bring your own fittings. The rental fee is how the venue is paid for.

At outdoor swap meets, most booths had some type of awning set up over them that the individual vendor brought with them.

He said some swap meets, very informal ones, were run out of vehicles in a parking lot but the great majority rented out booth space.

 

[Jo in Calif]

Sorry, does anyone know what a swap meet is?

ETA I have googled, but it's not clear - is it an organised market, or people selling stuff from vehicles?

A place where people come to buy, sell and or trade various goods. You can find all kinds of goods at these types of places including electronics, clothes, furniture and so on. Similar to a flea market.
Usually at a large area, fair grounds and such. They even have indoor swap meets. Sometimes the articles are brand new, sometimes they are old

 

[Grainne Dhu]

There is a very interesting trial taking place in New England at the moment, where a man is charged with murdering his wife in 1984 and hiding her body in a dry well, beneath the floor of his barn. She was discovered by the new owners in 2010. A tip in the form of a photo of bedding is being used as evidence:

"... a family photo that incidentally portrayed bedding that was similar to the bedding in which Mrs Heath's skeletal remains were wrapped...Det Insalaco had provided that photo...after receiving it from a Heath family friend."

http://www.newtownbee.com/news/news...iner-describes-attack-heath-murder-tri/166257

I'm still wondering if any of Bob's bedding was missing, and if Mrs Harrod was able to tell police what it looked like, if it was.

I've always wondered why the sisters wanted that special set of bed sheets that JuM had gone down the hill to put on the bed in anticipation of Fontelle's return. Wanting them back seemed really tacky to me.

I have long thought that the reason for the "gift" of sheets was to hide the fact that another set of sheets had been disposed of.

Watching the Disappeared episode, it looked like the bed still had sheets on it but was not made when the CL was there. Most people have more than one set of sheets, of course, so any missing sheets would have been missing from the linen closet.

 

[zwiebel]

BBM

SBM

Oooooooh, good hypothesis. I remember there was a time when the whole glasses missing/not missing was debated on WS and no one could come up with a likely possible reason for the discrepancy.

I think you did.

I have noticed in over 50 years of wearing glasses that there is a steady turnover of frame styles. Sure, you can go ahead, use your old frames when you get a new prescription but the frames tend to get beat up and they usually need to be replaced as well.

So, you go to the store and there's a bajillion different and ever-so-slightly different frames to choose between. But usually no frames that are identical to the ones you had before.

Which works out fine because if you keep the old pair as emergency backups, you need some way to differentiate between the old and the new when you don't have your glasses on.

Fontelle would certainly recognise the current pair Bob was using. She probably spent more time staring into his eyes in the few weeks they got to spend together than all three of his children did in the last ten years of Bob's life. After all, Fontelle loved him.

All of which makes me wonder if the perp or one of the perps had a mental list of the things that needed to go missing when Bob went missing to make it look like a voluntary disappearance for at least a while. His keys needed to be gone, his wallet needed to be gone, his glasses needed to be gone... but they picked up the wrong pair of glasses.

Slightly tangential: I can't recall for sure but I seem to remember that the Sunday meeting was at Bob's house. One result of that meeting was that it ensured there was an innocent explanation for any fingerprints, hairs or touch DNA found in Bob's house. None of this inconvenient "So-and-so hadn't been in Bob's house for nearly a year, why would that person's fingerprint be found overlaying all others on the <object>?"

I did wonder if anyone else in Bob's close circle wears glasses? They are the kind of thing a non-spectacle wearer might not think of picking up at all.

In a pic after Bob disappeared, his glasses are shown sitting on a table. If he often left them there when in the house, they might have come to seem like a 'fixture' to a regular visitor; something that no longer even registers so is easily missed.

There is also the possibility the housekeeper noticed Bob's glasses during her tidying up I guess. I don't know when police first spoke to her or what she was asked, so it could be the first media reports of Bob's glasses being missing led her to call police and tell them she had seen his glasses in the house after he vanished.

 

[cloudajo]

By October 2, people claiming to be family are saying son in law last saw Bob at 2pm and the housekeeper arrived at 2.45pm.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - CA CA - Bob Harrod, 81, Orange County, 27 July 2009 - #1

So between August 29, 2009 and October 2, 2009, the time of son in law's last sighting of Bob changed from 11am to 2pm and whoever those family members were, they also changed the housekeeper's arrival to 2.45pm.

It is worth noting here; The first media reports and posts by Bob's family say the housekeeper arrived around noon (there was no word from the housekeeper herself). Later, they change the housekeeper's arrival time to 2.45.

The housekeeper herself, to camera in Disappeared, says she arrived around noon. Yet I have seen recent posts from someone claiming to be a family member suggesting she must be mistaken. So that couldn't be one of the the same family members who said, back in Aug 14, 2009, that the housekeeper arrived around noon?

Hi there. To clarify the housekeeper did not say she arrived at Noon in the Disappeared episode. The narrator said that. The housekeeper only said she was at Bob's for about 3 hours.

I'm not saying she didn't arrive at Noon, just that it came from the narrator.

From the transcript for Disappeared:

Narrator: But Jeff was not the only person at Bob's house that day. Agnes, Bob's housekeeper of more than 10 years arrived around noon. Normally, she cleans Bob's house on Tuesday, but this week she'd arranged to come on Monday.

Agnes: And he said, "That will be fine, I will be here. Jeff is coming and he's going to take care of a couple of things in the house before Fontelle comes." So, I went to the house, knocked on the door. Nobody answered. I looked in the mailbox because that's where he normally leaves me the key. The key wasn't there, so I sat on the bench in front of the house.

[snipped]

Agnes: I was there altogether about three hours. I can honestly tell you that during the whole time I was there I was very concerned. I kept thinking, where is he at?