CA/Canada - Elisa Lam - 21 years old - Los Angeles/Vancouver - 31-Jan-2013 - #2

DNA Solves
DNA Solves
DNA Solves
Status
Not open for further replies.
Hello from the secret shadowy organisation which is ruling the world!

This is my first post here and registered because of this thread. RIP Elisa Lam.

I don't have much to comment yet about the lift CCTV, its just one of the most bizarre things I've ever seen. I am convinced she is talking to someone out of shot on the right hand side.

With regards to how she was found in the water tank and if it was suicide/murder: I don't think suicide could be ruled out but it is just absolutely unlikely, there are far more convinient methods to accomplish this. My gut feeling is she overdoed on a drug which was forcibly given to her, or strangled or killed in some unusual way. I have no doubt she was dead by the time she was put in the tank.

If it was suicide, the autopsy would have found water in the lungs. But as that was inclusive, they are really not sure yet and waiting for the tox reports back.

There are still several pieces missing such as:

1) What happened to the mobile phone? Have the contents been examined?
2) I believe only one report mentioned she was found nude, though other news agencies have not followed this. Can this be confirmed? I think this point is REALLY important, as it would certainly conclude if this was suicide or murder.
3) Have they started interviewing employees?

Also what does LE mean? I am from the European branch of MJ12 so sorry I'm not aware of some of the American acronyms :)
 
]I'm actually very surprised that so many people think Elisa's death was a suicide due to a mental breakdown or drug overdose (certainly not a voluntary suicide). That seems to me to be forcing an explanation since it absolves the need to explain the person's behaviour or actions. [/B]

So while I think it's possible for her to have been experiencing some mental breakdown or was drugged in the elevator video (I'm unconvinced of this at the moment), her death is likely to be directly caused by someone else.

The beauty of this forum is that we listen to each others theories. I haven't read any posts that "force" an explanation. There are some of us who watched her video, have a history of experience in the mental health field and believe we see some things that are associated with psychosis. As for myself, I in no way feel this in itself infers either suicide or homicide. People who are experiencing psychosis (Not saying I believe 100% that she was, are at a great risk of being the victim of crime. That being said:

"Almost 2 million Americans currently suffer from bipolar disorder. An estimated 3 percent to 20 percent of persons diagnosed with bipolar disorder die by suicide.
The death rate for untreated bipolar patients is higher than that of most types of heart disease and many types of cancer.
Studies of bipolar patients indicate that 25 percent to 50 percent of persons with this illness make at least one suicide attempt."

http://www.afsp.org/index.cfm?page_id=050CDCA2-C158-FBAC-16ACCE9DC8B7026C

I'm in the camp that believes that mental health issues should be treated as any other illness. I'm really tired of the stigma that still seems to be attached to mental illness. However, I also believe that by not remaining open and honest about the fact that some people who suffer from mental illness do commit suicide, we are downplaying the seriousness of this disease.
 
I saw this elsewhere:

"To me the video looks like she is playing elevator tag with someone in the other elevator. Based on the color of the wall, I think she is floor 15 and working her way down. Her body language is playful, she jumps out to catch her playmate messing with the elevator buttons. She finally gets frustrated with the elevator and wanders off, perhaps to the roof since she was already on 15.
I can't speculate on her gesticulating - trying to make the sensors work? At the very end she appears be doing a little dance, she does not appear frightened in any part of the video that I can see."

thoughts?

I tend towards this assessment of the video for now too. Plain and simple. Imagine this variation: She's fooling around with someone at the hotel. He says, Let's go to the roof (with sexual or vi0lent intent). She playfully (and perhaps seriously not feeling right about head to the roof) runs off to the elevator instead. Pushes all the buttons to be cute. But then, he doesn't follow her. The rest of it is her just waiting, exasperatedly, for him to show up. As someone stated earlier, what you do when you're alone and bored like that and figure no one sees you can be an awful lot like what you see Elisa doing.
 
Hello from the secret shadowy organisation which is ruling the world!

This is my first post here and registered because of this thread. RIP Elisa Lam.

I don't have much to comment yet about the lift CCTV, its just one of the most bizarre things I've ever seen. I am convinced she is talking to someone out of shot on the right hand side.

With regards to how she was found in the water tank and if it was suicide/murder: I don't think suicide could be ruled out but it is just absolutely unlikely, there are far more convinient methods to accomplish this. My gut feeling is she overdoed on a drug which was forcibly given to her, or strangled or killed in some unusual way. I have no doubt she was dead by the time she was put in the tank.

If it was suicide, the autopsy would have found water in the lungs. But as that was inclusive, they are really not sure yet and waiting for the tox reports back.

There are still several pieces missing such as:

1) What happened to the mobile phone? Have the contents been examined?
2) I believe only one report mentioned she was found nude, though other news agencies have not followed this. Can this be confirmed? I think this point is REALLY important, as it would certainly conclude if this was suicide or murder.
3) Have they started interviewing employees?

Also what does LE mean? I am from the European branch of MJ12 so sorry I'm not aware of some of the American acronyms :)

LAW ENFORCEMENT ie : police !
 
LAW ENFORCEMENT ie : police !

Thank you, that makes sense! I've already cracked some of the others. E.g COD=Cause of Death (not call of duty) and perp=Perpitrator?? :rocker:

Anyway I really hope her family gets their answers and closure as soon as possible. Alone, abroad and by themselves is what a lot of parents would worry about their children, and this is their worst nightmare :(
 
Hello from the secret shadowy organisation which is ruling the world!

This is my first post here and registered because of this thread. RIP Elisa Lam.

I don't have much to comment yet about the lift CCTV, its just one of the most bizarre things I've ever seen. I am convinced she is talking to someone out of shot on the right hand side.

With regards to how she was found in the water tank and if it was suicide/murder: I don't think suicide could be ruled out but it is just absolutely unlikely, there are far more convinient methods to accomplish this. My gut feeling is she overdoed on a drug which was forcibly given to her, or strangled or killed in some unusual way. I have no doubt she was dead by the time she was put in the tank.

If it was suicide, the autopsy would have found water in the lungs. But as that was inclusive, they are really not sure yet and waiting for the tox reports back.

There are still several pieces missing such as:

1) What happened to the mobile phone? Have the contents been examined?
2) I believe only one report mentioned she was found nude, though other news agencies have not followed this. Can this be confirmed? I think this point is REALLY important, as it would certainly conclude if this was suicide or murder.
3) Have they started interviewing employees?

Also what does LE mean? I am from the European branch of MJ12 so sorry I'm not aware of some of the American acronyms :)

Welcome mj12 !!

LE = law enforcement (also LEO, law enforcement officer)

1) we don't have confirmation re whether her cell phone was among her belongings left behind; her blog says she lost her cell on Jan 27, but as at Jan 31 she was still in touch with her family in Canada, so ??? When reporters asked one of the investigators (Teague) about the cell phone, comment was ""I don't want to talk about the cell phone, right now, very much, we have some of her property and she was in regular contact with her parents until 6 days ago."

2) Only one media article wrt "nude", so whether inaccurate or LE put a lid on it, we don't know for sure

3) apparently LE has spoken with employees of the hotel because we know that 2 staff members were supposedly the last to see Elisa.

If you want a lot more background, here's a link to Thread 1:

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=198048"]Found Deceased CA/Canada - Elisa Lam - 21 years old - Los Angeles/Vancouver - 31-Jan-2013 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]


hth (= hope that helps)
 
Help!


I remember i read somewhere somebody seen a post on her thumbler about she had a goal going to some farm sometime???

Anyone?
 
Okay, still catching up and by far not completely in this case, but I got a few first impressions. Please don't take that as complete profile and I consider it far from "stable". And all I say in the following is IMO (just to clam down the usual posts following that all I say is only IMO anyway). And be warned - even first impressions can be multi-parters:

1.) I think Elisa Lam was in that tank since she disappeared. Usually small bodies, and she was petite and light weight as in she had not much volume, have because of that small volume not much buoyancy (dive physics 101). Now such a tank has, when water is used a slight currency working basically from the surface to the outlet into the pipes leading down. So at the time, the body was fresh, not decomposed, physics indicates, that if the force of that currency is higher than her anyway little buoyancy, her body would go down and at some point block the outlet into the pipes. That would cause temporarily flow problems for fresh water in the lower stories.
This is also consistent with the noise Bernard Diaz claimed to have heard. The tanks are metal, so are the pipes. A harsh metallic noise, like slamming that hatch shut would be transferred through the pipes like through a speaking tube. The more the emptier the tank.
In the following half day, up to about 2 to 2 1/2 weeks, decomposition does it's work. Decomposition means aside of other things, gas. Gas creates buoyancy. The body stays up because after some gas comes together, F(buoyancy, upwards) > F(currency downwards). And I really would like to know whether I can insert OO Math here ...
So, for the next weeks, there are no unusual problems with the water flow. However, when decomposition progresses, tissue dissolves and therefore the gas concentrations become untight. The buoyancy of the remains will decrease and therefor the current when someone is using water will be stronger than the buoyancy. Therefore, the blocking starts again. Up to here, that's pretty simply physics.

2.) The concentration of bacteria and poisonous byproducts of decomposition would be in such a tank system low. First of all, the tank is quite big, so it would take time till any concentration is high enough to become dangerous and would show up in symptoms on those who used the water. And in fact, this point of concentration will not be reached because there is always water going out (people use water) and fresh water coming in (when the tanks refill). Additionally, the permanent outflow of water and the periodical refill plus the water covering most of the body would render cadaver dogs effectively worthless. So it is no surprise, the dogs couldn't find a thing, especially not at a time, when the body was still fresh because, as pointed out in 1.) the body would have been UNDER water.

3.) The flooding, Bernard Diaz mentioned, can't be caused by the body itself. The system providing fresh water has to be necessarily a closed system ni the sense, that faucets block usually any outlet in the floors under the tanks. Otherwise there would be always flowing water. So this flooding can only be caused by waste water. Back-flow from toilets, sinks, tub-outlets, in short everything, used water goes out. Which is physically separated from the fresh water coming out of the faucets.
Now, it can be coincidence, but IMO, it would be a little too much of it to have flooding exactly the day, a dead body is put in the tank on the roof. So something went down the waste water system, stuck there for a time, then disappeared. I haven'T seen any reports, any janitor has used Drano or something similar harsh chemical on those pipes that day and no reports someone snaked it out. But, given the clothing, Elisa Lam was wearing in the elevator video, I can see nothing, that would stuck in a pipe and survive a good aggressive pipe chemical pipe cleaner for long. And for sure no heavy clothing except for the shoes, which look to me more like sandals than flip-flops (no expert there though), that could resist such a chemical in-pipe-treatment for longer.
It's some assumption on my side now, but if a dead body pops up in a tank nude and at the same time, something blocks the waste water pipes, the idea that it was clothing appears IMO not too far. However, if I am right, that would mean, either Elisa Lam wasn't killed on the roof or the unsub returned down to dispose of her cloth. There is no access to the waste system from the roof, no toilet house, no bathroom. Only the floors under the roof have toilets. Given, that the flooding was in the area of third and fourth floor and the improbability that cloth, even ripped to pieces, would make it far through such an old plumbing, the entry point is, IMO, most likely in the area fourth to sixth floor. Which would place the unsub in the part of the Hotel known as The Stay if I understand the descriptions right.

4.) The "official" access to the roof leads through a locked door with alarm system. Now the point is, everybody expects a door supposed to be locked is actually locked. And the alarm system hot and active. But we talk here about a roof and there are also fire escape ladders. Those are also expected to be secured by the very same alarm system, right. And still we hear, sometimes people lived in the elevator room. So, how did they come up there without cause alerts? Some long time residents appear to have been up there quite often. I don't know, having a beer, smoking, talking, whatever. The point is, a lot of people knew, the alarm system wasn't actually active. Or had at least significant gaps. And if people go up there, for entirely hapless reasons, other people can watch them. Which means, the access to that roof, neither by physical obstacles, nor by alarm system nor by lack of knowledge. is so limited as it appears on the first glance. You don't need to be an employer to know that. Any longtime resident, anybody who knew longtime residents and visited them often enough could have known, there was a way to get up without causing an alert. And every guest, despite the obvious attempts to separate those two kinds of clientele, could have made contact with longtime residents.

5.) Elisa Lam, as alone traveling women, was there for almost a week before she disappeared. It is impossible, she never changed a word with anybody. She maybe didn't start big friendships, but at least, she was there and said maybe "good morning" or "hello" to someone. And this most likely happened in the lounge of The Stay. She lived, if I understood right, on fourth floor, four to six are guest rooms and share that lounge. So whoever, she made contact with, he used that lounge. She would on her own, not be the kind of person, IMO, to go to the floors with the longtime residents. Some of those are pretty spooky. And the flooding the day she disappeared, indicates IMO, the entry point of her cloths into the waste water pipes was somewhere 4th to 6th floor.

6.) There was a lot about drugs and depression and mental disorder. Elisa Lam was diagnosed with MILD depression. Even if those were connected to an underlying bi-polar disorder (which as far as I can see was more rumor than actually confirmed), depressions that lead to suicides bring people to jump from roofs, slit their wrists, hang themselves or any other kind of straight forward suicide. Drown in a water tank would be a new one. So, IMO, the way she was found contradicts a suicide theory.
Now, I read, her behavior in the elevator would indicate a psychotic break. But one of the most significant symptoms, nerve twitching was missing. That doesn't include a short term break caused by drugs (whether taken voluntarily or not), but it contradicts a psychotic break caused by an underlying long term mental condition. And schizophrenia? Well, if schizophrenia sets on, it would be admittedly age appropriate, but then that is all. I can't see her in the video looking over her shoulder and even when she hides in the rh-corner of the cabin, her body language appears rather relaxed to me, playful, not panicky. So, if any drugs were involved, it would be the kind, that makes rather a little incoherent, maybe undignified, loosing inhibitions. Does that sound rather like roofies than hardcore recreational drugs?

7.) Her glasses! She didn't have her glasses with her. She doesn't wear them on the elevator movie and they were found later in her room. Now, for someone, who is actually as blind as a bat, that would be something next to unthinkable. But for someone only half as blind as a bat (like me), it sometimes happens. One goes quickly over to somewhere, knows, no need to read a thing there ... so fine. Susan Rancourt, one of Ted Bundy's victims, went to the campus laundry without her glasses, just as an example.
That makes me think, she was on her way to somewhere or on the way back. She showed some weird behavior, even it doesn't appear panicky to me. We will see in some weeks, what comes back from the lab. But there are some little key pieces. She had no glasses with her, so it was near and she didn't expect to be there long. And she had no towels or vanity bag with her, so she wasn't on the way to a shared bath. The only reason to assume, she was on 14th floor or any of the higher up floors is, she pressed that elevator button, it went on and off immediately again. Which could be cause as easily by something stuck in the elevator door. Kids doing mischief with elevator doors in my youth used chewing gum paper in the light beam for that thing.
So, putting all of that together, I think (translated: IMO), she was on the way back (if at all she was already in that playful mood that was caused or not caused by drugs) and the place she was, was a normal hotel room. Given, as earlier pointed out, that her main area to socialize in the hotel was the lounge of The Stay, I would guess, a hotel room somewhere on floor 4 to 6.

8.) There is a time discrepancy in all of that. I don't think, one can place a body without terrible risk in that tank in the time between early afternoon and midnight. Because since so many people know and occasionally use that roof, the probability to run in a sunbathing long term resident who wants to ask whose body you are carrying around is just too big. Thus, IMO, Elisa Lam was put in this tank either January 31st before noon or February 1st after midnight. However, before noon means, there would be, if not on the roof, but in the hotel itself, some traffic. Thus, if it was Jan 31st, short time after the elevator video, Elisa was alive when she was brought up. Only, I can't imagine, how to make her going up there. At least the body language in the elevator video doesn't indicate to me actual and acute threat. So my bet would be, she was killed in a hotel room and transported up there later. If someone could find, what Bernard Diaz actually said about the time of the flooding (all I find is "the day, she disappeared, which can, depending on his lifestyle easily include the time into the morning hours of February 1st), we could pinpoint that better. But each of those solutions to the problem would indicate, the unsub is a good observer and at least on an instictive level someone knowing about his fellow human beings and their behavior.

9.) Either way, the unsub would have to transport her or her body in one of those two time windows. Which either way would not only be a display of physical strength but also nerves made from steel. Together with the way, he had to estimate correctly the times and milling ways of other people in the hotel, this has the first few hallmarks of someone with an anti-social personality disorder at least in a secondary diagnosis. Psycho- and sociopaths can't "feel" social behavior, they learn early in their youth to simulate it. How? By observing "normal" people, their behavior, their patterns. That doesn't mean, this is a serial killer, I think, rather not (I think = IMO). But it is someone who is cold because he is emotional so distant, he can keep his nerves even under what would be a stressing thing for normal people (like killing someone). Half of the rapists, who kill for the first time, run away screaming "oh gosh, what have I done". Not this guy. He makes a plan and works it.

10.) Cause of death. The coroner has to wait for tox, maybe DNA (I doubt that, the body was too long in water), maybe micro-fiber. But that tells me already, there is no "obvious" COD. No gunshot wounds, no stabbing, no broken hyoid bone, no blunt force trauma. Nothing that obvious. Which reduces the possibilities basically already now to poisoning (waiting for tox) or asphyxiation (micro-fiber of lungs and bronchial system). Now, poisoning takes a little time and is pretty uncontrolled. Asphyxiation, for example by pressing a pillow on the victim's face calls for some strength but otherwise is very controlled. So, my bet is, somewhere 4th to 6th floor on January 31st, a pillow had bite marks. Which of course wouldn't be recognized by the room service.

... to be continued in the next post
 
I agree in regards to her medication. In my practice I have never known people with Bipolar to be prescribed that much anti depressant and an amphetamine. Your just asking to flip them into mania.

Thanks for the info. I wonder why she was?

A comment about her eyesight: I'm 3/4 of the way to legally blind, and without my glasses, I would have clearly been able to see which button was my floor number, and which one was the door hold button, at the distance her face was from the buttons. I also have a friend who is about 7/8 of the way to legally blind, and I'm sure she would be able to make out the buttons if her head was 6" to a foot away as well.

Also, if I was being followed, and I was blind as a bat, I would make damn sure I put my head 1 inch away from the buttons to ensure I pressed the right floor number and make triple sure I did not press 'door hold.' I don't think she pushed all the buttons due to poor vision.

No. She walked in and sort of twirled her right hand with flourish before poking it down systematically on each button of the middle row. Her body language was not, IMO of someone who couldn't see or of someone who was scared or nervous at that moment. It was just dramatic and odd.

If she was indeed found nude floating face up in the tank, then it seems virtually impossible to conceive that she put herself in the tank. But it is also hard to conceive that someone would risk hauling a body up there and placing it in the tank themselves. Either way is hard to believe!

My only concern is that maybe the initial report was inaccurate and she was actually clothed when found in the tank.

People in a psychotic state often take their clothes off though: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjdH2LDH5LM"]New Jason Russell Video -- UP-CLOSE Naked Meltdown -- Kony 2012 - YouTube[/ame]

Seems a friend of Elisa's went on Reddit and posted that she has "disappeared before." I think it's legit, the poster had no previous activity on Reddit, and subsequently posted about roaming cell phone charges. Google search of the user name yields nothing else, though.

http://fr.reddit.com/r/MorbidReality/comments/18udw8/breaking_body_found_at_hotel_where_missing/

I think it is legit as well. It mentions that her family was reluctant to mention her mental problems, that she had had episodes before and that everyone suspected schizophrenia.

I have done a bit of puttering around on the internet and schizophrenia is often first diagnosed as bi polar disorder or bi polar disorder is sometimes diagnosed first and then the person develops schizophrenia.

I think Elisa was experiencing some of the first onset throes of schizophrenia.

Killers are often "invisible" until they're caught.

If it were a suicide, at least she was polite enough to close the lid after herself. :waitasec:

Could you link to something stating the lid was closed?

1361522179123201302220032567_46318.jpg


Anyone know what the graffiti means? It looks rather new and fresh looking next to the water tanks. Was it written with chalk?

Thanks for this. Can you link to the source? Also, does anyone think the writing here resembles the postcard fragment purported to have been sent by Elisa?

I agree; and as I've said before on this forum, it's dehumanising/belittling of anyone to assume a situation involving the demise of someone who is mentally ill is a consequence of their mental state. Just because she has been diagnosed with something doesn't mean suicide is on her mind - it's just one of those 'things', I don't think I've ever known someone my age who hasn't had the thought of suicide cross their mind (even those who aren't considered 'mentally ill'). Being a young person can be stressful at times, especially if she was restless in her routine. At most, her mental state may have kept her up all night (some medication does this too) and that's why she was walking around etc. but who are we to say...?

P.S. I'm in Melbourne too - hi!

How is it dehumanizing or belittling to believe that someone's death may have something to do with their mental condition? It is called mental illness for a reason. people with certain serious, mental issues are more susceptible to suicide, accidents, early death from physical illnesses (like breast cancer because they ignore symptoms) and from predators who take advantage of any confusion or paranoia.

That's just a fact. There are studies, stats, etc., all over the place regarding this.

Also, Elisa's drug combo seems like something to pay attention to according to posters. Withdrawing could cause problems and so could just taking them in concert.

Finally, bi polar disorder isn't just some teen dilemma. It is very serious. I had a friend with bi-polar disorder. Often she was okay - bright, intelligent, incredible artist. But she had to hole up away from people a lot in debilitating depressions and then came the psychotic hallucinations of animals.

It was very scary. I lost contact with her as she roamed around the country, engaging in quick and intense relationships with people of both sexes, then moving on, being involved in violent relationships, being beaten by a husband and going in and out of mental hospitals. But I just heard she is back in the hospital.

It is not belittling or dehumanizing to consider mental issues as the source of Elisa's demise. Mental illness is real and dangerous and should be taken very seriously.
 
No, no, good sir. Not like that. :) You don't look for evidence that a female was NOT involved. You ask, is there any evidence yet to indicate it might have been a female rather than a male? NO. Is there any evidence that it might have been a male rather than a female? YES, statistics and physical reasoning: overwhelming stats that males are more commonly perps; physical considerations like average strength/abilities of a male over female w.r.t. overwhelming a female and getting the body disposed of in the manner here.

Let me clarify: I am NOT ruling out a female. I am just not focusing on that kind of extreme outlier when there is nothing at all to indicate it's worth pursuing.

I can respect your reasoning, and I thank you for it. I welcome any reasoning that will allow me to change my perspectives. As stated, I come from an industry that looks at threats (so forth) in a very distinct manner, and we often do not consider other options. So this forum is indeed a welcome reprieve and a learning experience as well.

I saw this elsewhere:

"To me the video looks like she is playing elevator tag with someone in the other elevator. Based on the color of the wall, I think she is floor 15 and working her way down. Her body language is playful, she jumps out to catch her playmate messing with the elevator buttons. She finally gets frustrated with the elevator and wanders off, perhaps to the roof since she was already on 15.
I can't speculate on her gesticulating - trying to make the sensors work? At the very end she appears be doing a little dance, she does not appear frightened in any part of the video that I can see."

thoughts?

Good points. In my previous assessments, and that of those I've spoken to, I had not considered that she is being playful. It would take into account many of the exaggerated movements that we see in the video. I would consider this a strong option in place of the mental/drug line I've been running with.
 
Thanks! I understand basic mechanics of scent dogs training competitive hunting dogs, just trying to figure out what conditions are plausible to obviate scent on roof.

If it did not happen on roof, perhaps she was in one of the rooms not searched by police. If that's the case, how many might be involved? I cannot see one person doing it. Yes, it could be done, but not easily.

It's all so perplexing, isn't it?!

Yes, I was thinking she died elsewhere in the hotel. And, then... there could be a two man (or woman) team... one person possibly lowering her body from above and another who goes to the tank and climbs ladder to lift the lid? Or one person does both. Simply guessing aloud.
 
10.) Cause of death. The coroner has to wait for tox, maybe DNA (I doubt that, the body was too long in water), maybe micro-fiber. But that tells me already, there is no "obvious" COD. No gunshot wounds, no stabbing, no broken hyoid bone, no blunt force trauma. Nothing that obvious. Which reduces the possibilities basically already now to poisoning (waiting for tox) or asphyxiation (micro-fiber of lungs and bronchial system). Now, poisoning takes a little time and is pretty uncontrolled. Asphyxiation, for example by pressing a pillow on the victim's face calls for some strength but otherwise is very controlled. So, my bet is, somewhere 4th to 6th floor on January 31st, a pillow had bite marks. Which of course wouldn't be recognized by the room service.

I think you are right, I believe she was asphyxiated by a pillow or some other instrument placed over her mouth. Possibly strangled, but surely this might have been picked up in the autopsy?
 
Thanks for the info. I wonder why she was?



No. She walked in and sort of twirled her right hand with flourish before poking it down systematically on each button of the middle row. Her body language was not, IMO of someone who couldn't see or of someone who was scared or nervous at that moment. It was just dramatic and odd.



People in a psychotic state often take their clothes off though: New Jason Russell Video -- UP-CLOSE Naked Meltdown -- Kony 2012 - YouTube



I think it is legit as well. It mentions that her family was reluctant to mention her mental problems, that she had had episodes before and that everyone suspected schizophrenia.

I have done a bit of puttering around on the internet and schizophrenia is often first diagnosed as bi polar disorder or bi polar disorder is sometimes diagnosed first and then the person develops schizophrenia.

I think Elisa was experiencing some of the first onset throes of schizophrenia.



Could you link to something stating the lid was closed?



Thanks for this. Can you link to the source? Also, does anyone think the writing here resembles the postcard fragment purported to have been sent by Elisa?



How is it dehumanizing or belittling to believe that someone's death may have something to do with their mental condition? It is called mental illness for a reason. people with certain serious, mental issues are more susceptible to suicide, accidents, early death from physical illnesses (like breast cancer because they ignore symptoms) and from predators who take advantage of any confusion or paranoia.

That's just a fact. There are studies, stats, etc., all over the place regarding this.

Also, Elisa's drug combo seems like something to pay attention to according to posters. Withdrawing could cause problems and so could just taking them in concert.

Finally, bi polar disorder isn't just some teen dilemma. It is very serious. I had a friend with bi-polar disorder. Often she was okay - bright, intelligent, incredible artist. But she had to hole up away from people a lot in debilitating depressions and then came the psychotic hallucinations of animals.

It was very scary. I lost contact with her as she roamed around the country, engaging in quick and intense relationships with people of both sexes, then moving on, being involved in violent relationships, being beaten by a husband and going in and out of mental hospitals. But I just heard she is back in the hospital.

It is not belittling or dehumanizing to consider mental issues as the source of Elisa's demise. Mental illness is real and dangerous and should be taken very seriously.

The "Thanks" button just wasn't enough.
 
Have we as a collective group explored the notion of sex games going wrong?

Erotic asphyxiation I believe its called. I know it can be done singularly, although I know it has been popular in male/to female with one or the other applying oxygen limiting techniques (strangulation, etc).

Number of famous cases I'm sure we can all remember. I don't think the notion is too far off given what we have to go on.
 
<snip>

Good points. In my previous assessments, and that of those I've spoken to, I had not considered that she is being playful. It would take into account many of the exaggerated movements that we see in the video. I would consider this a strong option in place of the mental/drug line I've been running with.

When I was little, my parents and their friends would take all us kids to hotels and we would run wild. One of the things we did then was to run in the elevator first and push all the buttons. Then we'd shriek about it when the other kid(s) got there. We looked exactly like Elisa does in that video, including hiding back against the wall then just to add to the frolics.

Everything after that is her just futzing around, confused and frustrated that whoever is not showing up.
 
Have we as a collective group explored the notion of sex games going wrong?

Erotic asphyxiation I believe its called. I know it can be done singularly, although I know it has been popular in male/to female with one or the other applying oxygen limiting techniques (strangulation, etc).

Number of famous cases I'm sure we can all remember. I don't think the notion is too far off given what we have to go on.


What about the case suggests such a thing?
 
Have we as a collective group explored the notion of sex games going wrong?

Erotic asphyxiation I believe its called. I know it can be done singularly, although I know it has been popular in male/to female with one or the other applying oxygen limiting techniques (strangulation, etc).

Number of famous cases I'm sure we can all remember. I don't think the notion is too far off given what we have to go on.

Possible but unlikely someone travelling would participate in such a thing, unless they knew them very well. Even in relationships, I doubt this is practiced by most.
 
... continuing from #650

11.) Since all possibilities for Elisa to socialize in the hotel are more or less limited to the lounge of The Stay, I assume, she has been seen with her future killer earlier. Earlier as in maybe Jan 29th-30th. But nobody remembers that. Which makes me think, he can't be African-American or Hispanic because those combinations often pull more attention than Cacausian-Asian combinations. So that is not solid as a rock, but my guess would be Caucasian or Asian or a mix of that. He must be tall and strong (I come to team/pack arguments a moment later) and in pretty good shape to get a body on that tank and then in. I am not sure, which tank Elisa was found in, but I go out on a limb here and assume the one with the white color on it or the one behind. Because right-handers are so much more common than left-handers.

12.) Some ideas circle around a team or pack, as in multiple unsubs, mostly because of the physical strength needed to bring a body up there. Problem is, on a stair, or over a fence (as in the Hillside Stranglers) a second guy can help. But climbing up a ladder? Not really because he is either in front of the one carrying the body or behind, but from neither position, he can actually help.
However, since we have the elevator video, we have a time in which Elisa was already on the way back and in this suspicious playful mood. Whatever happened to her, it happened afterwards to her. Or in other words, whoever killed her, decided only after that to kill her. Now packs and teams have a tendency to lose time with fruitless discussion what to do and not to do. Single perpetrators don't have that problem. And whoever killed Elisa after she was in that elevator, he had to do it fast, there was some risk, other guests would see her in the state she was. Nobody did. So whatever happened, it happened short after and that left not much time to make a decision. IMO, this points to a single unsub.

13.) I take it, LAPD would have noticed a serial killer with that signature in the ares. Actually PDs in California generally delivered a pretty good work on that front lately. So, lets assume (as in IMO) this isn't a serial. Then this was a first-timer. A first-timer with enough anti-social personality disorder is maybe able to react cold and logic even under stress, but also the world's worst psychopath can't win experience without doing. Thus also a psychopath first-timer will show a certain lack of experience. He will consider the pros and cons of leaving earlier than his reservation ends and he will decide not to do that because it would pull attention to him. However, he will stay for the rest low, spend much more time in his room. If there is flooding or any other problem with waste or fresh water, he will not be the one complaining.

14.) Since that's a hotel which is frequented more or less by younger travelers who may not did their hotel research thoroughly enough, there is a good chance, he is maybe from another country. That can be Canada or also almost any country in Europe. Which means, a part from such a suspect pool would come over long distance and would have stopped along the way in other places. So, while I don't think, that's a serial, I like to be on the safe side and it would be interesting to know whether on the route of one of those travelers other girls went missing or found dead under suspicious circumstances. The victim description would be small, dark haired, maybe Asian. Just to cover the bases.

15.) Given the social environment, this unsub appears to me (as in IMO) as most likely Caucasian, male, about 6ft at least, 180-220 lbs, right-handed, non-threatening in appearance (as in at least half.way well groomed). He has not much money, that makes me think, he maybe has no regular income or is on a travel budget. Age-wise, I would estimate something in the lower half of the 25-35 bracket. He has most likely left the hotel in the meantime and continued his travels. Wherever he is, he will follow the news and also probably scan the internet for more details. If I'm right with my estimations, when he is caught, LE will find in his past minor crimes and misdemeanors like petty theft, maybe minor forgery or fraud. In this case, I don't think setting fires, but assault is a possibility. But all of that is not written in stone, please, just a first impression to get the ball rolling.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
94
Guests online
3,342
Total visitors
3,436

Forum statistics

Threads
604,421
Messages
18,171,786
Members
232,557
Latest member
Velvetshadow
Back
Top