CA/Canada - Elisa Lam - 21 years old - Los Angeles/Vancouver - 31-Jan-2013 - #2

[Locomotive77]

What can we learn from thinking about the lid to the tank?

First, from the pictures, we can see that the lid is removable, not hinged. Has anyone who is researching these roof tanks gained any insight as to what this lid may be like? Was it made of metal, or could it have been fiber glass? Was it latched somehow or did it just fit snugly enough that it would stay in high winds but still be easy enough to remove?

Has anyone noticed the lid in any of the photos? I have not.

If the lid was replaced and intact, from I want I can gather about it, there would have to have been another person to replace it. The presence of another person would be a strong indicator of foul play.

If the lid were off or broken at the time her body was discovered, this would make it possible that her presence in the tank was either accidental or intentional, but unaided by another person.

Therefore, when the police say that there is a chance that her presence in the tank was accidental, it would appear that the cover was found off the tank or damaged enough that someone could have gone through it.

Further information about the condition and location of lid would highly influence the likelihood that someone else was involved, and also the likelihood that she could have somehow ended up in the tank through her own actions.

This makes the tank cover a fertile area of inquiry.

http://www.worldjournal.com/view/full_news/21788016/article-藍可兒命案-酒店四水塔-頂蓋都未蓋?instance=hota

Interestingly, according to this Chinese news, the plumber said the
hatches were supposed to be put in place to avoid birds falling into the tank;
but to his knowledge, when they found the body, all four lids were open.

 

[Peter Brendt]

I think you are right, I believe she was asphyxiated by a pillow or some other instrument placed over her mouth. Possibly strangled, but surely this might have been picked up in the autopsy?

Ligature strangulation would have shown in a regular autopsy because most likely the hyoid bone would break. Not so good chances for manual strangulation, even there is a good chance, that the impressions of the fingers remain even after weeks in the water (it takes some serious pressure to manually strangle someone). The nasty thing is asphyxiation with a pillow because the only evidence would be micro-fiber from that pillow in the bronchial system. And that takes some time in a lab because they have to do a lot of microscope work to find the fiber and then soem to compare it to textile samples.

 

[Robert White]

What about the case suggests such a thing?

Possible but unlikely someone travelling would participate in such a thing, unless they knew them very well. Even in relationships, I doubt this is practiced by most.

There is a lot that we don't understand or know about Elisa. Who on this board can verify what person she was on a personal level? Even if we can assess her via friends and family, it is rational and logical to believe everyone has a secret life. Do you have any knowledge of polygraphs and clearance levels? I do. You would be shocked to find out what people have to admit for government clearances, and these people have much more on the line in every sense. So no, I do not find it at all illogical that we take a moment and look at this option. If we were to dismiss everything on the notion that you don't think it fits her personality, then "sleuthing" loses its meaning, no?

 

[hopeitcanhelp]

Thanks for this. Can you link to the source? Also, does anyone think the writing here resembles the postcard fragment purported to have been sent by Elisa?

Wow it does!

Look at the capital E for Elisa at the end, very similar.
The C is also similar.
The lower case "a" is nothing like it though.
The R is very similar too.

Someone with more experience can verify? Do we have any handwriting examples from her other than this potential postcard of hers?

Also there appears to be no other graffiti on the roof. Kind of weird, especially since this one seems fresh, it can indicate it was made by someone who has been on the roof very recently, and it just happens to have similar handwriting to hers?

 

[Peter Brendt]

Have we as a collective group explored the notion of sex games going wrong?

Erotic asphyxiation I believe its called. I know it can be done singularly, although I know it has been popular in male/to female with one or the other applying oxygen limiting techniques (strangulation, etc).

Number of famous cases I'm sure we can all remember. I don't think the notion is too far off given what we have to go on.

Erotic asphyxiation comes in three forms:
Hanging games, which leave deep rope impressions and damage to vertebrae (which the reason it goes wrong, if it goes wrong). I can't imagine, this would be missed by a coroner. Well, by a coroner outside of NY and Suffolk County at least.
Choking, which is more in the sadistic range. Same problem, if it goes bad, it leaves often deep finger imprints, skin damage even after weeks in the water still visible and often hyoid or vertebrae damage.
That would leave us with the always popular plastic bags. Nothing can be said about that without a formal ME report and micro-fiber lab results.

 

[tapu]

There is a lot that we don't understand or know about Elisa. Who on this board can verify what person she was on a personal level? Even if we can assess her via friends and family, it is rational and logical to believe everyone has a secret life. Do you have any knowledge of polygraphs and clearance levels? I do. You would be shocked to find out what people have to admit for government clearances, and these people have much more on the line in every sense. So no, I do not find it at all illogical that we take a moment and look at this option. If we were to dismiss everything on the notion that you don't think it fits her personality, then "sleuthing" loses its meaning, no?

Again, I'm not dismissing such a thing based on what we think she would do. I for one am suggesting that it is perhaps more effective to look at evidence and see where it leads. In this case, I can't even see where considering auto-asphyxiation could lead us anywhere at all--what would that advance anything?

It's like this: I'm not going to suggest a dingo put her in that tank until I hear it reported--at least--that dingo hair was found on the roof.

 

[jetsetsam]

We all know, now, that Elisa went missing sometime late Jan 31 or early feb 1.

But we only know that because the LA police issued a call for information on Feb 6.

So some pervert grabs her on Jan 31, and he has what he wants, someone to abuse, and he believes that no one would know what he has done because he has seen her alone in the hotel.

Who's going to look for her?

No one.

Then it hits the media a week later, and he knows he has to get rid of her.

He's smart, and knows the police can't search his room even if they start looking, because there is no crime at this stage, just a missing person.

But he waits a few days until the police have finished with the dogs, and then kills her.

But he can't take her down and out of the hotel, because the media is all over the outside.

So he goes up, where he buys drugs from Booger, and knows about the water tanks.

I still think the killer would need help.

Think about it. The workmans ladder probably wasn't available. It would be locked up in the utility room.

The body would have to be dragged up the fire escape, then the stairs to the top of the utility room, lowered to the top of the tank, the killer would then have to climb down to the top of the tank, take the body out of whatever it was wrapped in, take the lid off of the tank (without it falling off the tank), and then the body lowered into the tank. Lid goes back on to cover his tracks.

Then he would have to climb back up to the roof of the utility room, or even more difficult, jump off the tank. He probably couldn't hang from the edge of the tank and then jump down, because there is really no edge to the tank.

Look how difficult it was for the firemen to climb up on the tank, even with the ladder. And it looks like it was even more difficult for the firemen to pull themselves up from the tank top to the top of the utility room.

That's a lot to expect of a burned out pervert living on a bad diet, no exercise and some drugs in a low rent hotel.

But two could do it.

 

[Robert White]

Erotic asphyxiation comes in three forms:
Hanging games, which leave deep rope impressions and damage to vertebrae (which the reason it goes wrong, if it goes wrong). I can't imagine, this would be missed by a coroner. Well, by a coroner outside of NY and Suffolk County at least.
Choking, which is more in the sadistic range. Same problem, if it goes bad, it leaves often deep finger imprints, skin damage even after weeks in the water still visible and often hyoid or vertebrae damage.
That would leave us with the always popular plastic bags. Nothing can be said about that without a formal ME report and micro-fiber lab results.

Agreed. However, nothing can be verified about this entire case. Rope usage will always inflict marks, but not always vertebrae damage. Also depends on how much water damage/decomposition was inflicted. Fibers, etc are not always present if the bag itself is clean or it is a quality one, such as polyurethane.

 

[Robert White]

Again, I'm not dismissing such a thing based on what we think she would do. I for one am suggesting that it is perhaps more effective to look at evidence and see where it leads. In this case, I can't even see where considering auto-asphyxiation could lead us anywhere at all--what would that advance anything?

It's like this: I'm not going to suggest a dingo put her in that tank until I hear it reported--at least--that dingo hair was found on the roof.

Discussion continued via other means.

 

[tapu]

Then you really have nothing to go on in regards to this entire case do you..?

I am sorry if I have failed to make my general point. I'll stop trying so we don't bug everyone else to death.

 

[jetsetsam]

"Interestingly, according to this Chinese news, the plumber said the
hatches were supposed to be put in place to avoid birds falling into the tank;
but to his knowledge, when they found the body, all four lids were open.


That's really interesting, because the first videos of the firemen show three lids on and one lid off, and the lid that is off isn't placed on top of the tank adjacent to the access hole.

Maybe the maintenance man was diligent and concerned about bird crap going into 3 of the tanks and put the lids back on the 3 tanks.

 

[jetsetsam]

There is a very obscure Hong Kong movie named:

"Chung ngon sat luk ji shui seung chong see", where a body is found inside a water tank a top of an apartment building.

There aren't english subtitles readily available for this movie, but it could have been the inspiration for an asian killer to put the body in the tank.

 

[branwynbreeze]

It's all so perplexing, isn't it?!

Yes, I was thinking she died elsewhere in the hotel. And, then... there could be a two man (or woman) team... one person possibly lowering her body from above and another who goes to the tank and climbs ladder to lift the lid? Or one person does both. Simply guessing aloud.

There was the strange demise of a young lady not far from my home. Poor girl was found in a freezer. She was a troubled woman who battled with drug issues off and on and moved in with roommate days before her death. The much older man was taken in for questioning, but released. It had been brutally hot and she tried to cool off in freezer getting stuck with lid closed. That make me consider accidental, but at moment think EL was elsewhere in hotel when she passed.

 

[BunnyHop]

read elsewhere an interesting point about the video

"This video was obviously doctored by the hotel staff responsible. at 2:54 you can see the time counter in the bottom left corner freeze 3 times before the door closes. This means that the staff member used his key to unlock the elevator and he had to edit himself out of the video.."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TjVBpyTeZM

 

[Sillybilly]

Think about it. The workmans ladder probably wasn't available. It would be locked up in the utility room.

<rsbm>

From prior posts, we know that LAPD said there were ladders outside the tanks. In the following pic, there is what appears to be an aluminum ladder chained to the tank on the left:

http://www.cbc.ca/gfx/topvideo/elisa-lam-update-022013_lead_media_image_1.jpg

In that same pic ^^, can't help but notice the scuff marks (?) beside the hatch where Elisa went in; also, what appear to be black garbage bags on the tank behind the fireman.

 

[Robert White]

read elsewhere an interesting point about the video

"This video was obviously doctored by the hotel staff responsible. at 2:54 you can see the time counter in the bottom left corner freeze&#65279; 3 times before the door closes. This means that the staff member used his key to unlock the elevator and he had to edit himself out of the video.."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TjVBpyTeZM

Good points. I'm pretty sure there was a video specialist in the previous thread. Maybe he can clarify for me. I thought that the majority of CCTVs are now saved through either an on site server/database (electronic) or old school video tapes? If it is the latter, can they even be edited? If it was electronic, it would have an access time logged for modification, no?

 

[hopeitcanhelp]

Cameras often stop recording when the image doesn't change/no movement. The behavior is not unusual.

Can someone look back at the previous page where I compare her postcard handwriting with the graffiti? Isn't that a strange?

 

[Peace777]

Then you really have nothing to go on in regards to this entire case do you..?

Robert I think you are breaking 1 of the rules by making this kind of statement to tapu, we are NOT to attack or criticize other comments TY JMO

 

[Sillybilly]

Wow it does!

Look at the capital E for Elisa at the end, very similar.
The C is also similar.
The lower case "a" is nothing like it though.
The R is very similar too.

Someone with more experience can verify? Do we have any handwriting examples from her other than this potential postcard of hers?

Also there appears to be no other graffiti on the roof. Kind of weird, especially since this one seems fresh, it can indicate it was made by someone who has been on the roof very recently, and it just happens to have similar handwriting to hers?

We gave the endearing "booger" message around the corner, but other than that, I don't recall any other.

IMO, the "R" is almost identical as well.

FWIW, when I first saw that particular graffiti beside the tank, my first thoughts were it looks fresh, and looks female.

 

[jetsetsam]

I haven't seen any posts of the LAPD saying the ladders were chained to the outside of the tanks.

Could you post a few?

The building maintenance people would know that people go up on the roof. They can see the graffiti too. It's unlikely they would leave a ladder against the tanks, because they wouldn't want to risk someone putting something in the tanks that would contaminate the drinking water. Besides a body.

I saw the the scuff marks too, but they are in the place where at least one fireman has put his left boot climbing up onto the tank.

They must have had training in how to mess up a crime scene.