CA/Canada - Elisa Lam - 21 years old - Los Angeles/Vancouver - 31-Jan-2013 - #5

[MesaVerde]

Also the possibility of Elisa having a mental breakdown at the time of her death doesn't actually preclude what the cause of death was. She still could have been murdered, or death by accident or misadventure or whatever. She just wouldn't have been fully cognizant while it was happening.

That is a somewhat spurious argument to make at this point because the repeated assertion on this board has been that she climbed into the tank herself because she is crazy or under the influence of some substance. I think you may have made that argument yourself but I might be wrong. I don't want to reread through all the threads so just tell me if you haven't.

 

[MesaVerde]

No I never said I believed either way. I just said it's hard to imagine all of that happening without someone seeing something. But, thanks for putting words in my mouth.

But there are only two options. When you go out of your way to name one as unbelievable, by inference wouldn't a reasonable person assume you have neglected to likewise mention the other option because you don't find it unbelievable.

So if I misunderstood you, please explain more fully what you meant.

 

[Marlon]

That is a somewhat spurious argument to make at this point because the repeated assertion on this board has been that she climbed into the tank herself because she is crazy or under the influence of some substance. I think you may have made that argument yourself but I might be wrong. I don't want to reread through all the threads so just tell me if you haven't.

I figured out its wise to just wait untill the report

Evrything here is just speculation, accident or murder..

We know nothing

Just fantasies based on a vid.

So LE

HURRY !

 

[Joe Friday]

Hiding a body to conceal a crime usually is hard work. I think that is why more people don't kill people. If it was easy, there are a few people I would have made things square with myself if you know what I mean.



Obviously because she might have had blood or other bodily fluids of the killer on her. He might have thought the water would get rid of a lot of evidence. And it is always better for the criminal if the body is not found. Usually no body, no crime. He might have thought the tank was a great hiding place.



Why would you think she would be put in the suitcase alive? What is the source of this assumption?



Who says? Is law enforcement operating on your time schedule?

<modsnip>

Second why must the killer always be a man and refereed to as "he", don't women kill too?

Third, if she was dead when she was put into a suitcase or other means to be hoisted to the top of the tank, how do you figure the killer murdered her? She obviously didn't die from some sort of violent trauma to her body.

And yet you have no trouble conceiving that Elisa Lam climbed up a fire escape and ladder (on drugs or stark raving mad) and opened a water tank and climbed in it herself without anybody seeing her do it.

Yep, I'm going with hypnosis. After careful consideration it is the only reasonable explanation to explain how and why Elisa ended up in the tank at the hand of someone else without a fatal wound to her body, since she obviously had to be killed by someone and she couldn't have just had a mental break down and accidentally or purposely killed herself by climbing to the tank.

JMO

 

[littlegreycells31]

But there are only two options. When you go out of your way to name one as unbelievable, by inference wouldn't a reasonable person assume you have neglected to likewise mention the other option because you don't find it unbelievable.

So if I misunderstood you, please explain more fully what you meant.

I didn't say I find either one of those options unbelievable. It seems you are taking peoples comments out of context and making of them what you will.

I would expect that police might be able to find someone who SAW something if her body was indeed carried up to the roof, especially if it was not through an elevator. I happen to feel strongly that foul play was involved if you must know. But I am still wondering how this could have been done on top of an open roof in a big city with no witnesses. However, the police may have some witnesses that saw something. Who knows.

 

[Norwegian]

Hi,

I've had an interesting day.

My sister have no knowledge of this case and it was therefore interesting for me to show my sister the elevator video. I didn't give her any information beforehand, just wanted to see what my sister's reaction was.

After Elisa pushes the buttons again and again, my sister laughs "obsessive compulsive disorder". After that she goes through verbs like "playing, fiddeling, acting (as in talking to oneself). But my sister really thinks she was there by herself the whole time.

When I told her about the case, my sister said that Elisa never appeared fearful or honestly scared in the video.

My sister narrowed it down to Elisa playing some sort of elevator game and that she could be waiting for someone.

My sister happens to be the size of Eliza, while I am the big, strong girl of the family. I lifted my sister with no trouble and walked up a couple of stairs. But I honestly can say that I would not have been able to walk up a ladder carrying dead weight in a strange form.

From this we concluded that Elisa could have been killed at the top of the watertank.

I can easily see her meeting someone (someone who saw her as an easy target since she was travelling alone) and they agree to be adventurous and go up on the roof together. They climb up on the watertanks together. Elisa is killed and easily dumped into the tank.

 

[cthomas]

It maybe big enough with effort to squeeze in but It would not have been an ideal entry point.

mjak

Generally tanks, pieces of equipment like this, have what are usually called manholes, for access/maintenance. The point of that square access point on that particular water tank is almost certainly for a person to fit through, so it probably wouldn't have taken very much effort at all to get through.

 

[MesaVerde]

<modsnip>

Second why must the killer always be a man and refereed to as "he", don't women kill too?

JMO

<modsnip>

Well, usually the killers of women are men. It could be another woman but that would be very, very unusual. But, I don't know...Does Amorosa have an alibi? (am I allowed to say that, it's a joke).

If there isn't trauma then I think she was suffocated with tape or a pillow or plastic on her face or else drowned with her head in a toilet or bathtub. If you plan to put her in a watertank later, drowning her in the bathtub would be the smartest way to do it. No marks and an autopsy would show she...drowned. Nothing to see here folks.

 

[MesaVerde]

I would expect that police might be able to find someone who SAW something if her body was indeed carried up to the roof, especially if it was not through an elevator. I happen to feel strongly that foul play was involved if you must know. But I am still wondering how this could have been done on top of an open roof in a big city with no witnesses. However, the police may have some witnesses that saw something. Who knows.

I apologize for misinterpreting you. As to the other, how many people out of a 1000 do you think are up at say 3 am and would choose to spend their time standing up staring out their window at a what seems to be viewed as a sleazy hotel below them?

 

[catatonia]

I lifted my sister with no trouble and walked up a couple of stairs. But I honestly can say that I would not have been able to walk up a ladder carrying dead weight in a strange form

From a logical point of view: if you carry someone on your shoulders and want to climb up a ladder, you need to secure the body with at least one hand (especially when your movements are shaky, as one has to balance oneself) - hence that makes it impossible unless you've got a third arm/hand.

A backpack might be easier to carry.

 

[MesaVerde]

My sister happens to be the size of Eliza, while I am the big, strong girl of the family. I lifted my sister with no trouble and walked up a couple of stairs. But I honestly can say that I would not have been able to walk up a ladder carrying dead weight in a strange form.

It is a mistake to conclude that the limitations of your strength are the limitations of the strength of an average man.

I can easily see her meeting someone (someone who saw her as an easy target since she was travelling alone) and they agree to be adventurous and go up on the roof together. They climb up on the watertanks together. Elisa is killed and easily dumped into the tank.

Possible.

 

[RhiannonR]

It maybe big enough with effort to squeeze in but It would not have been an ideal entry point.

mjak

Well, my brother is a plumber and he squeezes into spaces this tight.

 

[MesaVerde]

I think it is fair to say the elevator was not used to transport Elisa's body to the roof.

Now that is some tight logic.

 

[Theforeigner]

Today Mesaverde posted:

The roof was accessible at all times to anyone who can climb a fire escape. Elisa Lam weighed 115 pounds. Most American men are strong enough to carry her up a fire escape if they want to.

I wonder if police checked the fire escape ladder, that take you up on the roof, for EL's DNA? to see if she went up there by herself? I mean if there is DNA on where you put your hands when you climb that fire escape ladder that could point to that she went up on the roof by herself (either by free will of forced) in contrast to beeing carried.

 

[Socrates]

First off I'm glad you're lazy.

Second why must the killer always be a man and refereed to as "he", don't women kill too?...

Yep, I'm going with hypnosis. After careful consideration it is the only reasonable explanation to explain how and why Elisa ended up in the tank at the hand of someone else without a fatal wound to her body, since she obviously had to be killed by someone and she couldn't have just had a mental break down and accidentally or purposely killed herself by climbing to the tank.

JMO

I agree with MesaVerde that it's just vastly more likely that a man killed her than a woman... I'll find a better source and more recent info if you want but, according to [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_and_crime"]Gender and crime - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame] "In 2004, males were almost 10 times more likely than females to commit murder, including rape-homicides." And the fact that she was found naked suggests to me a sexual assault (though this is by no means established fact yet), which again makes a man a much more likely perpetrator.

As for hypnosis, my understanding is that it's difficult or impossible to hypnotize someone who doesn't want to be hypnotized. Here is an expert who attests to that. So if she was in an altered state that made her more suggestible or vulnerable, some kind of drugs or mental breakdown would seem more likely.

Also, as MesaVerde points out, the reports that she did not have any signs of trauma on her body could imply suffocation or for that matter poisoning or overdose, right? It doesn't necessarily mean she went up to the roof and into the tank voluntarily (which always seemed to me a highly unlikely scenario). As I wrote before, though, I don't claim any expertise in forensics, so someone more informed is welcome to correct me.

Once again, though, until the toxicology report comes out and the coroner's office renders its final verdict, it's hard to say with any certainty.

PS: Apologies for the redundant Wikipedia link

 

[MesaVerde]

I wonder if police checked the fire escape ladder, that take you up on the roof, for EL's DNA?

As well as dusted for prints. Actually, if she went up the tank on her own, there should be prints on the ladder and on the tank itself, wouldn't you think? Not sure how well they hold up to (acid) rain so maybe not.

 

[Norwegian]

It is a mistake to conclude that the limitations of your strength are the limitations of the strength of an average man.

I am telling you that I am no average girl, strength-wise

I get your point!

I still think even a very strong man would have trouble carrying 115lbs of dead weight up a ladder.

 

[MesaVerde]

"In 2004, males were almost 10 times more likely than females to commit murder, including rape-homicides."

Not only the rates of murder, but also the patterns of murder differ between men and women. Men are more likely to kill a stranger. Women are more likely to kill their own family (husband, boyfriend, children.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1635092

"In contrast to men, who killed nonintimate acquaintances, strangers, or victims of undetermined relationship in 80% of cases, women killed their spouse, an intimate acquaintance, or a family member in 60% of cases."

 

[OCSlacker]

LOL. I am lazy. I mean...hide a body...*&$#...I don't even want to do the dishes in my sink.

Well, usually the killers of women are men. It could be another woman but that would be very, very unusual. But, I don't know...Does Amorosa have an alibi? (am I allowed to say that, it's a joke).

If there isn't trauma then I think she was suffocated with tape or a pillow or plastic on her face or else drowned with her head in a toilet or bathtub. If you plan to put her in a watertank later, drowning her in the bathtub would be the smartest way to do it. No marks and an autopsy would show she...drowned. Nothing to see here folks.

I've looked into suffocation by pillow etc. and from what I have read it is quite possible that no bruising would occur. Below is a link to one of the sites of a book on forensics.

http://books.google.com/books?id=59...a=X&ei=Lvo0Uae2NeW-yQGav4CgAQ&ved=0CDoQ6AEwAg

If find it very possible that someone entered her room, raped her, used a pillow to muffle her cries for help and either accidentally suffocated her or intentionally murdered her. It's quite possible that the video has nothing to do with her death or that someone in the hall noticed her, forced her into a room ( which is a bit hard to explain as there would be some sort of struggle) or noticed which room she returned to and attacked her while sleeping.

As for the removal of her body and the water tank, can you imagine what you would do if you were a panicked person having just murdered someone whether intentional or not? If familiar with the building, a long time resident or employee, you couldn't just walk out the front door with a body in a suitcase but you may think of the rooftop water tanks. An employee would have no issue dumping a body in a tank, they aren't using the water for hygiene or drinking purposes and could have easier access to the roof via the stairs. A long time resident could also have a key. I read somewhere that some residents are former military, they could have an old army duffle bag or used some sort of bag to strap to themselves and carry it to the rooftop via the fire escape. As dangerous as it may be to climb a fire escape in the middle of the night with a body, if your alternative is life in prison or the death penalty that's a hell of a reason to give it a try.

I can't get past the fact that search dogs were used to locate her and no trace of her was found on the roof or I would also include that it is possible she went there on her own. Perhaps to watch the sunrise or take photos on her last day in LA. But if something happened to her on the roof wouldn't someone be concerned about someone seeing them attack a girl on a rooftop, wouldn't she yell her head off? If she was dragged into the maintenance room, wouldn't the dogs have picked up that scent? But who's to say they didn't pick up her scent and that is one reason they searched the roof to begin with. Having overlooked the water tanks is a bit careless on the part of LAPD though.

 

[MesaVerde]

I still think even a very strong man would have trouble carrying 115lbs of dead weight up a ladder.

I think it would be easier than 115 pounds of wriggling weight.