CA/Canada - Elisa Lam - 21 years old - Los Angeles/Vancouver - 31-Jan-2013 - #5

[Robert White]

As an extreme case, it's like saying a construction worker would know how to design a building "in some professional capacity". A doctor goes through many false positives daily and even they are unable to correctly diagnose illnesses sometimes.

Okay, let us be clear that professionals are not infallible. In every field, there are many mistakes made, some because of a lack of caring, others because they just shouldn't be at the professional level. Does that apply to the entire spectrum? Not at all. Refer to my last post in regards to the standards of education and designation. They do exist for a reason, although bad apples get through all the time.

I don't know what your profession is, but I think this is the crux of the disagreement. Does a video with no sound, or other context cues qualify as reliable evidence to think she was "probably" experiencing psychosis?

No, it is certainly not reliable evidence. Then again, there is no reliable evidence. Everything is based upon a scant amount of evidence, and theories being made up from it, and their own personal and professional experiences. As I said in the past, some are great, and some aren't. Some are supported well, and some aren't. However, let me say this again. When I have the mental health individuals on this board give their opinions, and my colleagues and friends (who are LE) support this (those conversations can be found on the previous threads for transparency), I will tend to believe them, rather then question whether an assessment can be properly made. You know why? Because I can speak personally to the experience of the latter.

I agree, a threat may not be present in the video at all. But that doesn't mean she wasn't acting rationally. Let's examine her actions and give rational explanations:

• Pressing multiple buttons - someone who doesn't want someone to know what floor they're going to may do this. Someone may do this just for *advertiser censored* and giggles. Someone may do this if they're playing a game of some sort. (although I find this unlikely, unless she's "played this game" before)
• Looking out the door both ways - if someone expects the door to close, and it doesn't, they may assume someone was holding the button from the outside and check
• Standing in the corner - someone who doesn't want to be seen, or someone who is angling at a better look at the outside button, making sure it's not being pressed
• The hop-step outside the elevator - used commonly by people wanting to make a noise with their feet, to make their presence known, especially if you suspect someone is hiding.
• Hands on her head outside the elevator - "What do I do now?" or "I think I'm getting paranoid" Non-crazy people do this too.
• Pressing the buttons again - "Why won't this stupid elevator work, damnit!"
• Swimming gestures - she could be talking to someone or to herself. It could indicate she's telling someone she can't see, or she could be pointing to the elevator as she's talking. It could mean a number of things - some people use a lot of hand gestures when they talk. Ever see a flamboyant gay man? Without audio, it's impossible to tell. It's like watching a movie without audio.
• Holding her fingers - normal people do this to emphasize points, either to themselves or to others

.

Well there is no point in disagreeing with this. We come from different backgrounds, and you assess it differently. I can see how you can make those conclusions and that's fine. Experience tells me otherwise, but I could very well be wrong. And if I am, I would own up to it like anyone should.

Doing something is one thing, but there needs to be a basis for it. How do I know you aren't a terrorist? I can rule out the likelihood based on your past behavior. I can see you have no motive. Or that you don't have the capability. Considering every single possibility is a waste of time.

And unfortunately, that's where you are wrong. You don't know. You may not know even if you knew me in person. There are dozens of indicators and nuances people are trained to detect, and I would strongly suspect this applies to the mental health field. People have become so caught up in fact that there is no evidence of previous behaviour. And from what? Social media posts, main stream media, her friends? You are never getting the whole story. You are speculating on the personality and past of someone you don't know - not even a little bit. Again, I go back to the terrorism aspect. We have seen such breaks in molds, we don't even know who to consider. Families come forward and say, "that can't be my son, he was a 4.0 GPA science student - he has no past, blah blah." Its easy to show the side you want to show.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - CA/Canada - Elisa Lam - 21 years old - Los Angeles/Vancouver - 31-Jan-2013 - #5

I'll look at this later, thanks.

Anyways, we have detracted enough from the real case. We know where we stand, and I respect what you have to say. We may disagree, and I believe that to be a product of our backgrounds both in profession/personal experience. Nothing wrong with that.

 

[tapu]

Snipped that up...


You know LAPD and Newport PD were on the phone till all hours last night comparing notes. As soon as the body in Newport was found everyone's ears perked up

Do you mean you have heard reports of that, or do you mean you imagine that is what happened?

 

[noodled1]

Do you mean you have heard reports of that, or do you mean you imagine that is what happened?

I imagine that's what would happen.

Only way it wouldn't if one of them knew for a fact they had a suicide or accidental death on their hands. Which could very well be in either case.

BTW here's an update on the case in OC
http://www.ocregister.com/news/police-498255-body-woman.html

 

[Sillybilly]

Further speculation and angles and possibilities are highly titillating...but let's call a duck a duck here...

Maybe you can make a quick call to LAPD ... would save them a lot of time and trouble.

 

[Qrious]

Her splayed fingers, hands where it looks like she is petting an invisible animal is the most troubling for me. According to research online it varies from anxiety, fear and a body language expert said she was relaxed and flirtatious. (which I find very odd).
I wonder if a breakdown induced by prescription drugs and possible drug overdose or alcohol combination is at the root of all of this.

Or maybe she had naturally loose joints? I posted earlier about this too. Hoping people here who knew her could help.

 

[BlazerJH]

No biggy here .. just a mild observation from the instagram pics and probably meaningless, but i'm tossing it out anyway.

In the instagram pic of her left hand with untended nailpolish, she is wearing a watch on her left wrist.

In the pic of Elisa on the George Stroumboulopolis set, she is wearing a watch on her left wrist.

In the pic where the she is wearing the black coat, where we can't see her face as she holds the little camera, with the tiny bit of the plaid hoodie showing, the watch is on her right wrist.

Oh, and no .. i don't have any theories to accompany it

I don't have the black coat photo in front of me, but that one was taken in a mirror. Is the watch on her right wrist even accounting for a mirror?

 

[OCSlacker]

Snipped that up...


You know LAPD and Newport PD were on the phone till all hours last night comparing notes. As soon as the body in Newport was found everyone's ears perked up

Don't know about that, perhaps. I feel kinda silly for posting the original link now. It was originally just my dark sense of humor by saying something to the effect of

if you are an Asian woman of slim build and in your 20's it's not really a good time to be in So Cal.

I think what struck me the most about this is that it is the first case of suspected homicide here that I've heard about in almost 6 yrs. Don't get me wrong crimes happen just not of this magnitude.

Anyway, my intention was not to detract from the EL case at all and if a mod wishes to remove the post I have absolutely no issue with that.. Didn't mean to confuse matters more by posting that link. Oh and I've tried to be very careful while typing on my tablet but as I said earlier it just isn't working out in my favor tonight.. sorry for any typos

correction- just remembered, there have been 2 others recently but not a body found on the beach involved in foul play.. just ignore me today. It is obvious I should be concentrating on work instead

 

[MesaVerde]

Or maybe she had naturally loose joints? I posted earlier about this too. Hoping people here who knew her could help.

That is weird because that is the same thing I thought about her.

 

[noodled1]

Don't know about that, perhaps. I feel kinda silly for posting the original link now. It was originally just my dark sense of humor by saying something to the effect of

if you are an Asian woman of slim build and in your 20's it's not really a good time to be in So Cal.

I think what struck me the most about this is that it is the first case of suspected homicide here that I've heard about in almost 6 yrs. Don't get me wrong crimes happen just not of this magnitude.

Anyway, my intention was not to detract from the EL case at all and if a mod wishes to remove the post I have absolutely no issue with that.. Didn't mean to confuse matters more by posting that link. Oh and I've tried to be very careful while typing on my tablet but as I said earlier it just isn't working out in my favor tonight.. sorry for any typos

Shouldn't be a problem. with a case with so few actual facts to discuss and so much of the discussion being based off of personal views I can't see how mentioning a case that took place yesterday and an hour away from Elisa's with a couple similarities can be considered wrong or going to far off topic

 

[bessie]

MOD NOTE: ^^^^ Look up at the thread title. The subject of this discussion is Elisa Lam.

Thank you.

 

[Fei]

That sign "Kingston" to the left of the Telus sign is the old Kingston Hotel that was one of the buildings that was to remain when Telus Garden went in. That shot had to have been taken from around the corner of Richards and W. Georgia. I think she may have been up in the Vancouver Public Library on W. Georgia to get that shot of that particular sign on the side of the Kingston.

I still think it's from the Bay store building in downtown Vancouver, not the library... here's a view from The Bay Store, and the red dot is where I think EL was (approximately, and inside of the building) when she took those two pics. According to her tumblr, I think most likely she was working there.

 

[hello people]

Maybe you can make a quick call to LAPD ... would save them a lot of time and trouble.

I don't think so...they have probably already come to some kind of similar conclusion

 

[Sillybilly]

I don't have the black coat photo in front of me, but that one was taken in a mirror. Is the watch on her right wrist even accounting for a mirror?

LOL ... thanks Blazer !! Of course you are right if it was taken in a mirror.

Nap time for billy

 

[TheRoger]

I have been reading about this case for a while but have not chimed in until now. I am amazed at the amount of info thathas been deduced by everyone with little to go on. Very good. I find myself fascinated by this case as I have been with others in the past such as JtR, another bizarre and incredibly mysterious red herring. Have been trying to put together a scenario that fits everyithing including the video and I think i may have one.

When I was first told about this case a day or two after Elisa was found I read some MS news reports and watched the elevator video. Immediately my gut feeling (always trust my gut) even before knowing some of the inner workings of the Cecilas uncovered here, was that a staff memeber was involved. The video is definiely bizarre and prob is not as significant as everyone thinks and only serves to muddy the waters. But what about this? Elisa decided to head up to the rooftop to take pics or see the lights at night or whatever. She entered the roof throught the stairwell door and DID set off the alarm in the lobby. Security/night watchman/doorman was alone at his post and heads up to investigate or has already seen elisa heading up on the CCTV. Upon noticing that this is a lone young girl, and possibly knowing that she was planning to check out (buys perp more coverup time) or has been 'keeping an eye on her', perp decides to act.

Perp heads upstairs, either stair or elevator and uses his key to 'lock' elevator. (I believe most have a key hole in the hallway by up and down buttons). Elisa on roof hears perp come through the door and heads down fire escape, (or perp entrance and her exit could be vice versa). Elisa heads down hurriedly, losing glasses in process but being spooked and realizing someone has pursied her she carries on (could have slipped on the ladder and dropped off fire escape). Getting to the 15th floor the sound of her goign through the grate tips off perp that she has gone down off the roof and he goes down the opposite waythat she did. Or he was calling to her and she fled. Elisa reaches elevator and a bit flummoxed but much more calm as she hears no one apporaching presses the buttons and waits nothing happening. Hears door close. Peeks into hall, nothing. Becomes more tense, hides in corner. Upon coming out from corner can hear perp coming, possibly calling out to her. She hears perp coming (or sees him in the mirror) or she has been spotted and recognizing him as hotel employee she lets her guard down and 'jumps' out in a playful manner, thinking shes only busted for being on the roof and trying to lighten the mood. Perp says soemthing like 'Miss what are you doing on the roof at this houryou shouldn't be up there, why didn't you stop when i called' She puts her hands to her head (classic child's 'busted' pose) as she tries to talk her way out of it. Perp persists 'you are trespassing, come along with me'. Elisa thinking this is bs heads back into elevator looking fed up tries buttons again including door close perp says 'elevator is locked and isn't going anywhere, come with me your'e in trouble' or 'elevator is broken youll have to take the stairs' She comes out a final time and gestures are her saying something to the effect of 'i'm jus trying to go down and i don't know whats going on here with the elevators'. Feeling spooked she does not turn directly to perp who is in the hallway and keeps her back half to the elevator this whole time. The finger counting is her pleading that 'i'm lost, lost my glasses you scared me, i just want to go' perp insists she come along, finally seeing no recourse whe goes along and while being led perp grabs her from behind, covers mouth and takes her quickly either to roof or vacant room/utility room and assaults her, prob suffocates her during assault and already had tanks in mind as dumping place.

Sorry this is real long and probably reads like a stream of consiousness style, but my gut is screaming employee right now. Employee might know that she was cheking out that morn and would buy him some time before anyone came looking for her. Perhaps she had previously mentioned she was 'drifting' around cali and he saw a chance that night, or seeing she was alone he had an eye on her. Her glasses, room key, phone and clothes will be huge clues in this case. There is an unsubstantiated chinese report that an employee was found in possession of her room key. If this is indeed the case he could have removed items from her room that identified her afterwards (phone, glasses, computer, wallet, etc.) and destroyed them or hidden them.

 

[Myst]

Steven and Gloria Cott file class-action lawsuit against Cecil Hotel in L.A.

http://www.wptv.com/dpp/news/world/elisa-lam-update-steven-and-gloria-cott-file-class-action-lawsuit-against-cecil-hotel-in-la

"The lawsuit was filed Tuesday in Los Angeles Superior Court by Steven and Gloria Cott. Deeming it a "class action," the complaint specifies it could apply to "all persons similarly situated" -- meaning anyone who stayed at the hotel between February 1 and 19 this year."

(2nd couple, to my knowledge, who has filed against Cecil)

 

[TheRoger]

I am not a professional by anyy stretch, just an amatuer sleuth like everyone on here which means i go with my gut feeling at all times on these cases. The image that keeps popping into my head of the killer is a male, 25-35 years old, thick stout build, swarthy complexion, overwight but not obese, round head and thick neck, short crewcut, and a short light goatee in a security uniform. No backing at all for this just how i picture him in my head.

Also I keep thinking about that scene in LA confidential where two guys had a girl tied up and gagged for days in order to repeatedly assault her and feel something like this may have happened in this case as well.

 

[TheRoger]

I believe she was on the 15th floor. I had read on here somewhere that the 14th floor button lights up red instead of green and that's why its dim/not as noticable in the video.

 

[bessie]

I am not a professional by anyy stretch, just an amatuer sleuth like everyone on here which means i go with my gut feeling at all times on these cases. The image that keeps popping into my head of the killer is a male, 25-35 years old, thick stout build, swarthy complexion, overwight but not obese, round head and thick neck, short crewcut, and a short light goatee in a security uniform. No backing at all for this just how i picture him in my head.

Also I keep thinking about that scene in LA confidential where two guys had a girl tied up and gagged for days in order to repeatedly assault her and feel something like this may have happened in this case as well.

Have you posted in one of the theory threads?

 

[TheRoger]

No I haven't, didn't know they exist. Would prefer to post in here as this is the one i've been following. Will keep the blantant speculaitve profiling to a minimum.

 

[jennydreadful]

I'm saying people don't think of it because they are normally hidden from view and have their access restricted. In rural areas they'd be more common, and probably in India.

Yeah, in India rooftop water tanks are very, very common. Before I went there (stayed in New Delhi for 2 months), I never thought about water tanks and had no awareness of having seen them. It's much easier to get to rooftops there as well--much of the time, no one cares. A lot of people dry the laundry on rooftops.

Also, Indian newspapers give a lot of headlines to murders, and are much franker about unpleasant details. I've seen them print pictures of murder victims for identification. So, you're absolutely right--in India and countries like India, a watertank as a place for a body (or suicide) would be much more prominent in the public consciousness.