GUILTY CA - Classic (Orson West, 3) & Cincere (Orrin West, 4), still missing, Calif. City, *Mistrial on counts 4 & 5)* 21 Dec 2020 #8

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Frodosdojo said:
I was 8 when I told my fantastical story to the police. I never saw it as lying. I vividly saw it and recounted it.
Click to expand...
Yes; my kids were all about the same age when they told me fantastical tales, and I did the same thing around that same time.
It's a milestone that helps us learn to reason, learn about consequences, and learn how to keep ourselves alive if we must.
"No, I didn't see you shoot anyone."
"No, I won't call the cops if you go home now."
"No, I won't remember a thing."
Every person MUST be able to do it when the chips are down, and you were just flexin' your muscles. :)

Sadly, that same important behavior also forces everyone to question a child's credibility, and I can't blame anyone for harboring a reasonable doubt when a murder trial hinges on a child's testimony.

ETA: Interesting links
www.parents.com

Lying Is an Important Developmental Milestone for Kids

Lying is nothing unusual for small children, and a new study says it's actually an important developmental milestone.
www.parents.com www.parents.com
 
UrsulaWrenn said:
Yes; my kids were all about the same age when they told me fantastical tales, and I did the same thing around that same time.
It's a milestone that helps us learn to reason, learn about consequences, and learn how to keep ourselves alive if we must.
"No, I didn't see you shoot anyone."
"No, I won't call the cops if you go home now."
"No, I won't remember a thing."
Every person MUST be able to do it when the chips are down, and you were just flexin' your muscles. :)

Sadly, that same important behavior also forces everyone to question a child's credibility, and I can't blame anyone for harboring a reasonable doubt when a murder trial hinges on a child's testimony.
Click to expand...
I don't agree with your characterization - I think more likely I enjoyed the audience. :D

If all these children tell similar stories, i.e., they were told Orrin and Orsin went to live elsewhere, it all adds up.
 
Asked did Orson and Orrin move to new house and he says yes. He does not remember the previous answers he told in his interview. Mostly I do not remember.

State is playing part of his interview. I really think putting these kids on the stand was a bad idea for everyone and might not go as hoped.

This kid was six at the time.
 
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When Stallings asked him if he minds her asking him a few questions and he says yes.

I just realized all of these children are divided up as siblings using the same 2 letters. Starting with O and O and C and C. and 2 bio kids and 2 other adopted kids have same letter in first name as sibling.
 
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He said he last saw grandma Wanda yesterday. He pretty much said Orson and Orrin helped with the Christmas tree and each slept in a room shared by other brothers. He is excused.

Next boy is bio child and he is 9 y/o. I expect nothing to come of any of these testimonies. He does not remember his rooms nor what they looked like nor moving to Cal City.

He just stated the other boys in the van moving and living in Cal city but does not say Orson or Orrin. Does not remember the room in Cal city he is being shown pic of. He still does not remember the room. One sibling slept at top. He says he does not remember Orrin and Orson. He said he does not remember them living in Cal city.
He is being shown a picture of Orson and Orrin.

He said he does not recognize Orson and Orrin. WOW!!

He said he does not remember going to Grandma Wandas at Christmas nor talking to police officers. State is playing video I suspect of interview. After seeing the video he says he does not remember the interview with Police.
( The eight year old remembered speaking to police ) He seems to be just saying he does not remember to most questions.
But he only named 3 other siblings being in Cal City, being in the van and being at grandmas.
 
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Well in the interview he says Orrin and Orson did not move to Cal City because they cried a lot. He names the 3 other siblings in the van going to Grandmas at Christmas but not Orson and Orrin.

He just said after watching the interview he still does not remember it. He said Orson and Orrin went home. He again named only 3 other siblings at Cal City and did name O and O at the apt.

Stallings on cross. Asking questions about how many times he has seen the prosecutor. Now she is asking about " mistakes" and the color of the sky. She is trying to establish the boys made a mistake in their first interviews, IMO.
Very memory of his mom and dad is his favorite.

He does not remember eating pizza with family even though I think there is a picture there.
He added Orson and Orrin to an answer only after Stallings asked him about them.
Now she is basically saying there were many different children who were not his siblings going in and out of the home.
Done for today.
 
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All Stallings needs is one " Casey Anthony Juror ".
One more bio brother after the 8 y/o and that one is 12 y/o I believe.

Please forgive any typos or misspellings or even if it makes little sense. It should be cleared up with the KGET tweets.

They are not making a "mistake" not naming the boys as living there, they are not saying the names because they were not there or not for long.

My thinking is Orson and Orrin were not happy children and expressed it often and the other brothers noticed they did not get goodies and were punished often. I do not think they played much together. I bet they were kept separate from the others and possibly not taught any type of home schooling. Just put them elsewhere so the others can learn. JMO!
 
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I do think Stallings won a point about the police writing up reviews incorrectly with the older teen getting upset about his statements being falsely written. He was making statements of having a talk with the officer after court.
 
Morning Testimony, Part 1
DAY FOURTEEN - May 1, 2023
https://twitter.com/KGETnews

Ashley Penland is testifying via Zoom at the trial of Trezell and Jacqueline West. She lives in Arizona and previously lived in California City. #WestsTrial

Penland testified she became aware of the search for Orrin and Orson West the evening of Dec. 21, 2020. Cal City police went to her home. #WestsTrial

Penland said she never had contact with the Wests but knew where they lived. A sidebar has been called. #WestsTrial

Trezell and Jacqueline West are charged with crimes including murder in the deaths of Orrin, 4, and Orson, 3, their youngest adopted children. Their bodies have not been found. Authorities say evidence indicates the boys died 3 months before reported missing. #WestsTrial

Sidebar is over and Penland has resumed testifying. She said she did not have a working security system on her house the night the boys were reported missing. #WestsTrial

Prosecutor Eric Smith finished his questioning and defense attorney Timothy Hennessy is cross-examining her. #WestsTrial

Penland said she recently figured out when she bought the wires to set up the camera, and it wasn't until March 2021. #WestsTrial

Hennessy finished and defense lawyer Alekxia Torres Stallings is asking questions. Penland said there were no street lamps on the road at the time and she didn't know any of her neighbors. #WestsTrial

Penland has been excused. #WestsTrial

Court will be in recess for 10-15 minutes. #WestsTrial
 
Morning Testimony, Part 2
DAY FOURTEEN - May 1, 2023
https://twitter.com/KGETnews

Court is back in session. Ramon Hernandez has been called to the stand. #WestsTrial

He lived at a home on Aspen Avenue at the time of the boys' disappearance. #WestsTrial

Hernandez has pointed out his home on a map displayed in court. He had a surveillance camera on his home. #WestsTrial

Hernandez has described what he could see through his camera as it faced northwest. The Wests lived in the house across the street. #WestsTrial

Hernandez testified he didn't see children at the home and the people there would run inside when they say him. #WestsTrial

On the night of the reported disappearance, police came to his home to view the footage his camera captured, Hernandez said. #WestsTrial

The footage showed the Wests' white van leaving and then returning, Hernandez said. #WestsTrial

The footage he saw didn't show children walking in the street. The camera shoots continuously, Hernandez said. #WestsTrial

The officers did not request him to download the footage and did not return to get it, Hernandez said. The footage is stored for a year. He said law enforcement never returned for it. #WestsTrial

Hernandez said he doesn't have any stored footage from that day. Smith ended his questioning and Torres Stallings has begun cross-examination. #WestsTrial

Hernandez said he was not aware that his wife and Jacqueline West talked together on occasion, or that his wife brought them cookies after the children were reported missing. #WestsTrial

He testified he and his wife talked about the Wests being "odd." #WestsTrial

Torres Stallings is asking Hernandez to describe the officers who went to his home. He said one was slim, tall, with hair and no beard. He said the other officer was a little more chunky. Both were white. #WestsTrial

Hernandez testified he believes one of the officers wrote information down. He believes they were in his home between 5:30 to 6 p.m. #WestsTrial

Hernandez said he can't recall if officers asked to see footage taken before the Wests' van left. #WestsTrial

Hernandez testified he doesn't recall seeing Jacqueline West leave the home with her dog and walk down the street, or seeing Trezell West return and stand in the middle of the street. #WestsTrial

On April 19 -- just last week -- an investigator spoke with Hernandez. This is the first time he's talked about the footage. #WestsTrial

No one asked to look at footage from Dec. 19, 2020, and he didn't view it, Hernandez said. #WestsTrial

Asked about his comment that the Wests ran when they saw him, Hernandez said he was outside painting his gate days before the disappearance. #WestsTrial

Torres Stallings is showing an image of footage taken by another camera showing both the West house and Hernandez's house across the street. She asked about a next door neighbor, Hernandez said he talked to the man a few times. #WestsTrial

Asked if he ever saw the man carry an AK-47 at night, Hernandez said no. Prosecutor Eric Smith objected and Judge Charles R. Brehmer sustained the objection and ordered the answer stricken. #WestsTrial

Torres Stallings asked Hernandez about a person seen walking into an enclosed area on his property on Dec. 19, 2020. Hernandez said this is the first time he's seen this footage and he doesn't know who the person is. #WestsTrial

Hernandez said he doesn't recall seeing the Wests go into the van on Dec. 19, 2020. He said he worked from home at the time. #WestsTrial

Asked how many times he saw the Wests outside in December 2020, Hernandez said maybe twice. Maybe once in November, and couldn't recall in October or September. #WestsTrial

He said he can't recall the exact date the Wests moved in. #WestsTrial

Torres Stallings ended cross-examination and now Victor Nasser, one of the attorneys representing Trezell West, is questioning Hernandez. #WestsTrial

Hernandez said he can only see the lot to the west of the Wests' home from his camera, not the right lot. #WestsTrial

The camera captures about half of the garage, the left side if you're facing the house, Hernandez said. #WestsTrial

The officers didn't ask for any dates of surveillance footage to view from September 2020, only the one day in December, Hernandez said. #WestsTrial

Hernandez confirmed he was contacted by a detective on April 19, 2023. Before then, the only time he spoke with officers was the night they came to his house in 2020, he said. #WestsTrial

Nasser ended his questioning. Under redirect, Hernandez said there was some footage the officers reviewed that included daylight hours as well as night footage. #WestsTrial

Hernandez has been excused. #WestsTrial

Court is in recess for 15 minutes. #WestsTrial
 
Morning Testimony, Part 3
DAY FOURTEEN - May 1, 2023
https://twitter.com/KGETnews

Back in session. AT has been called to the stand. He's a sophomore in high school. #WestsTrial

AT lives in foster care, he's been there for years. He had brothers in the system. #WestsTrial

AT said he was 4 years older than the others. #WestsTrial

AT testified he was in foster care in the apartment of Trezell and Jacqueline West about 6 years ago. He identified the Wests two other adopted children as ones he lived with. It's the Wests' older adopted children, not Orrin and Orson. #WestsTrial

AT said he lived with the Wests for about a year before he moved to his aunt's house. He said he also met the Wests' biological children. #WestsTrial

AT said Jacqueline West would scream at the adopted children, hold them down. He said she would grab the children around their neck and wrap her legs around them to stop them from moving. #WestsTrial

Smith has displayed a photo of AT demonstrating the hold Jacqueline West would put on the older adopted children. This was before Orrin and Orson were adopted. AT said she would get annoyed with their crying. #WestsTrial

AT said he would get mad but he couldn't do anything. #WestsTrial

An arm would be placed around a child's neck and she would interlock it with another arm then put her legs around the child and tighten the grip so the child couldn't move. #WestsTrial

The adopted children were very young at the time, AT said. He said he was regularly told to stay in his room. #WestsTrial

"I don't even know," AT said as to the last time he saw the adopted children he lived with at the West home. #WestsTrial

Smith ended his questioning and Torres Stallings has begun cross-examination. #WestsTrial

At the time he lived with the Wests he had enough food, clothing, AT said. #WestsTrial

Torres Stallings is referring to incidents that occurred in the home of AT's birth mother. AT confirmed the incidents and why they were removed from the home. #WestsTrial

Asking about the discipline AT described, Torres Stallings asked if Jacqueline West held the children from behind. AT said yes. He said she'd scream at them and do it for an hour. #WestsTrial

AT said this happened multiple times. He said he did not tell law enforcement it happened 40 times, which is what the report says. #WestsTrial

AT said police wrote things he didn't say and he's "going to have a chat with him later." The last time he saw the Wests' older adopted children was 6 or 7 years ago. #WestsTrial

AT said he told his aunt about the discipline the Wests used but didn't tell social workers. #WestsTrial

The first time he spoke with law enforcement about it was April 7, 2021, AT said. He said he had previously seen information about the West case on the news. #WestsTrial

Torres Stallings finished her questioning and Nasser has begun questioning him. #WestsTrial

On redirect, Smith said he didn't talk to social workers about what happened because he doesn't trust them. He said they lie. #WestsTrial

Correction, AT said he didn't talk to social workers. He's being questioned by prosecutor Eric Smith. #WestsTrial

AT said the chokeholds used by Jacqueline West would last from 5 minutes to an hour. #WestsTrial

AT has been excused. #WestsTrial
 
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Morning Testimony, Part 4
DAY FOURTEEN - May 1, 2023
https://twitter.com/KGETnews

One of the Wests' adopted children has been called to the stand. #WestsTrial

The child is 10. He said he knows the difference between a truth and a lie. He's in fourth grade. #WestsTrial

He said he likes to play with Legos. He likes math at school. He lives with his 3 brothers -- the other West children. #WestsTrial

He said he doesn't know the name of his adopted parents. #WestsTrial

Smith is displaying photos of the apartment on Casa Loma in Bakersfield and the house in California City where the 10-year-old used to live. #WestsTrial

The child said he recognizes the home and the Wests' van. He identified photos of Trezell of Jacqueline West. #WestsTrial

He said he thinks Orrin and Orson lived with him in the apartment in Bakersfield. He doesn't remember when they came to live there. #WestsTrial

He said both Orrin and Orson were nice. They played together, with little toy blocks. #WestsTrial

The child said he was home-schooled in the apartment. #WestsTrial

The 10-year-old said they moved from the apartment to the desert. #WestsTrial

He said he was also home-schooled in the house in Cal City. #WestsTrial

The child said he remembers going to the house and they were cleaning the house. He said he thinks he helped carry boxes in. #WestsTrial

The child said he would play tag in the backyard or play with the dogs. #WestsTrial

The boy said Orrin and Orson were among the children living with them in the house. #WestsTrial

He said he doesn't remember how long Orrin and Orson lived there. #WestsTrial

The child appears unsure of some of his answers. When he first entered the courtroom Jacqueline West had a small smile on her face. #WestsTrial

Court is in recess until 1:30 p.m. #WestsTrial
 
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Afternoon Testimony, Part 1
DAY FOURTEEN - May 1, 2023
https://twitter.com/KGETnews

The trial of Trezell and Jacqueline West has resumed with the Wests' adopted 10-year-old child on the stand. #WestsTrial

Prosecutor Eric Smith is displaying a photo of bunk beds in the Wests' California City home. The child said he had the top bed. Orrin or Orson had the bottom bed he said, adding he can't remember. #WestsTrial

The boy said he thinks Jacqueline and Trezell West told him Orrin and Orson were going to sleep down there. He said sometimes he would see them sleep on the bottom. Smith is asking him about his prior testimony for the grand jury. #WestsTrial

When he testified before, according to Smith's questioning, the child said "no" to seeing Orrin or Orson on the bottom bed. #WestsTrial

The boy says he thinks he saw Orrin and Orson sleeping in the bottom bunk. #WestsTrial

Smith asked the boy if he remembers going to his grandmother Wanda West's house in December 2020. The boy said yes. #WestsTrial

The boy said he remembers the white van used to take him to the grandmother's house. He listed the others in the van with him. He said he doesn't know if Orrin or Orson were in the van with him and the other children. #WestsTrial

The boy said he remembers police coming to the grandmother's house. The boy has identified an image of himself at a table. #WestsTrial

Smith is about to play the boy's interview with law enforcement. #WestsTrial

The interview is being played now. The boy says he broke his arm when he was at the apartment when he fell while climbing the monkey bars. #WestsTrial

An officer is asking the boy to spell his name, asks him if he knows the difference between a lie and the truth. The boy was 8 at the time of the interview. #WestsTrial

The boy says he doesn't know the difference between doing something right or something wrong. #WestsTrial

Asked what happens at home when he does something wrong, the boy says "we miss out on stuff" like cake. #WestsTrial

He says yes when the officer asks if he knows it's wrong to hurt somebody. #WestsTrial

"If I were to punch you would it be wrong?" the officer asks. "Yes," the boy says. #WestsTrial

The officer asks who was in the car when the boy went to the grandmother's house. He lists the Wests and his brothers, but not Orrin and Orson. He says the last time he saw them was at the apartment in Bakersfield. #WestsTrial

The video has ended. The child said he remembers speaking with the officer. #WestsTrial

The child, shown a photo of the Wests' apartment in Bakersfield, testified that's where he last saw Orrin and Orson. #WestsTrial

The Wests moved from that apartment to Cal City in September 2020. #WestsTrial

He said either the Wests or one of the biological children told him Orrin was staying at Jacqueline West's mother's house. #WestsTrial

The boy said he doesn't know where Orson went and didn't ask Trezell or Jacqueline West. Smith ended his questioning. #WestsTrial

Alekxia Torres Stallings, lead attorney for Jacqueline West, has begun cross-examination. #WestsTrial

Torres Stallings asked how many times the boy has talked with Smith. He said he thinks 4 times. #WestsTrial

Torres Stallings asked the boy what he was told he'd be doing today. He said to tell the truth. #WestsTrial

Torres Stallings has asked if the boy was given anything to read before coming here today. He said no. #WestsTrial

He said no one told him to refer to the Wests as "Jackie" and "Trezell." Torres Stallings said when he previously testified he called Jacqueline West "mom" and Trezell West "dad." #WestsTrial

"Did anyone tell you not to look at them?" Torres Stallings asked. "No," he said. #WestsTrial

The boy said he hasn't seen them in a long time. #WestsTrial

The boy said his favorite memory of Jacqueline is when they moved to the desert. #WestsTrial

Torres Stallings showed him a photo and he said he remembers it. He said they sometimes went on picnics. His favorite memory of Trezell is when he made bread because "it was good," the boy said. #WestsTrial

Trezell West wiped his eyes and attorney Victor Nasser handed him a tissue. #WestsTrial

Torres Stallings is asking about Christmas and the toys they received. #WestsTrial

The boy said Orrin and Orson helped decorate the Christmas tree. #WestsTrial

Torres Stallings is asking about the arm the boy had broken. He said he had a cast and drew on it. He said it happened a long time ago. #WestsTrial

The boy said he started referring to the Cal City area as "high desert" when he was placed in another home after the Wests. #WestsTrial

The boy paused, then said "sometimes" when asked about other children he lived with in a foster home after the Wests. He said sometimes they hit him. #WestsTrial

The boy's testimony has changed multiple times as to if Orrin and Orson went to the California City home. #WestsTrial

Asked by Torres Stallings, the boy said Orrin and Orson weren't in the van when the Wests dropped off him and the other children at his grandmother's house. #WestsTrial

Torres Stallings has finished and Timothy Hennessy has begun cross-examination. #WestsTrial

The boy said when they first moved to Cal City they slept on the floor because the bunk beds hadn't been built. #WestsTrial

Hennessy finished and Smith is again asking questions. The boy said he doesn't remember if he also slept on the floor at the Bakersfield apartment. The child has been excused. #WestsTrial

Court is in recess for 15 minutes. #WestsTrial
 
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Afternoon Testimony, Part 2
DAY FOURTEEN - May 1, 2023
https://twitter.com/KGETnews

Court is back in session with another of the Wests' adopted children on the witness stand. #WestsTrial

The boy is 8 years old. He's in 3rd grade. He said he knows the difference between the truth and a lie and answered a couple questions showing he knows the difference. #WestsTrial

He said math is his favorite subject. He also like reading. #WestsTrial

Shown a photo of Trezell, the boys said that's his dad. Shown a photo of Jacqueline, he said that's his mom. #WestsTrial

The boy said he recognizes a photo of the apartment building in Bakersfield where he used to live. #WestsTrial

The boy said he used to play games with Orrin. He said he didn't play with Orson because he was in another bedroom. #WestsTrial

The boy said Orrin and one of the Wests' biological children slept in his bedroo. The boy said he doesn't remember if Orrin and Orson ever got in trouble, and said no when asked if they were punished by his father. #WestsTrial

The boy said he doesn't remember moving to the house in California City. He said "the outside" was his favorite part of the house because he could play outside. He played with his dogs in the backyard. #WestsTrial

The boy said he doesn't remember who stayed in which bedroom in Cal City. Smith is going to show him some photos. #WestsTrial

Shown a photo of one of the bedrooms, the boy said it was his, another of the adopted children's and Orrin's room. He said he saw Orrin sleeping there. #WestsTrial

Smith asked the boy if he remembered Orrin and Orson moving with them. "No" the boy said. He said he doesn't remember who moved with him. #WestsTrial

The boy said he didn't go to school in the high desert and doesn't remember a classroom with a sliding door. Previous testimony has indicated the West children were home-schooled. #WestsTrial

The boy said he remembers going to his grandmother's house around Christmas in 2020 and he went there in a van. He said he doesn't remember where he sat in the van and doesn't remember who was in the van with him. #WestsTrial

Smith is going to play the video of the boy's interview with police. #WestsTrial

The video is playing. Smith stopped it to fix a technical issue. #WestsTrial

Smith has gone back to asking questions of the boy. The boy said Orrin and Orson moved to Cal City and stayed with him but doesn't remember for how long. #WestsTrial

The boy has answered "I don't remember" to many of the prosecutor's questions. #WestsTrial

The boy said he recalls testifying previously but doesn't remember how long ago it was or being asked about Orrin and Orson. #WestsTrial

Smith asked if he remembers saying Orrin and Orson left one day after they moved to the desert. The boy said he doesn't remember saying that. #WestsTrial

Smith is now playing the interview video. #WestsTrial

The boy says they "miss out" if they do something bad. On what? "Good stuff." #WestsTrial

The boy says he lives with his dad and brothers at the Cal City house. He doesn't mention Orrin and Orson but names the other brothers. #WestsTrial

When they traveled in the van to his grandmother's house his parents, he and his brothers were in the van -- but not Orrin and Orson, he said. #WestsTrial

The boy says both Orrin and Orson moved to the Cal City house "but then they left." He says they were only there one day and he doesn't know where they went. #WestsTrial

The video has ended. #WestsTrial

Asked by Smith, the boy said he remembers that interview and did the best to the tell the truth. #WestsTrial

He said he doesn't remember what he meant by saying Orrin and Orson were only in Cal City one day. #WestsTrial

Smith ended his questioning and Torres Stallings has begun cross-examination. #WestsTrial

She's asking the boy some quick, easy questions, including what he had for breakfast and lunch. #WestsTrial

Torres Stallings asked who else was in the car that brought him to court. "My brothers," the boy said. He said he was told he would be coming to court on Monday by prosecutor Eric Smith. #WestsTrial

The Wests' two biological children and two other adopted children were brought to the courthouse together. #WestsTrial

The boy said he doesn't remember how long ago he testified. #WestsTrial

"I don't remember," the boy said when asked to say something good about his mom. Under questioning by Torres Stallings he said he remembers her cooking for him and his dad playing with him. #WestsTrial

The boy said Orrin and Orson were at the Cal City house for a long time. #WestsTrial

The boy said everyone, including Orrin and Orson, helped put up the Christmas tree. #WestsTrial

He said Orrin and Orson slept in a bedroom in Cal City. #WestsTrial

Torres Stallings finished her questioning. The boy has been excused. #WestsTrial
 
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