CA - Court upholds Menendez brothers' convictions

[otto]

Same! I couldn’t stand listening to it… got disgusted and didn’t even make it to the end of the first episode the night I tried. Watched more over the next few nights, even though so much about it is just awful. I wish I’d watched none of it. Everything involving the therapist’s mistress seemed over the top and ridiculous, imo, and really awkward juxtaposing the horrific abuse details. I don’t foresee getting past episode 7, which I got halfway through a few hours ago. Throwing in the towel, 6 1/2 episodes after that first extra-loud one.

I watched it. The first half seems to be in defence of sexual abuse victims. The second half, second trial, seems to be an offence to expose Lyle and Eric as manipulative liars. They were convicted.

 

[Ray_of_hope]

The educational neglect played a part in this because it was a contributing factor as to why the brothers had very little in the way of life skills - because they were not allowed or given the opportunity to develop any. They were rarely allowed to make their own decisions. This, coupled with ongoing abuse and dysfunction, left them emotionally stunted and led up to the events that happened. That's why is crucial to know and understand this. Trauma changes the way the brain develops, and this abuse starts during their babyhood. While they were legally of age when they killed their parents, they were not adults emotionally - their emotional age was estimated to be 8 to 10 years old, according to a psychologist who examined them in the L.A. County Jail. They had lived with this abuse and threats all their lives. which caused them to become hyper-vigilent. In addition, in the days leading up to the killings, they were not sleeping well which added to their nervous and frightened mental state. Lyle wanted to protect Erik, and in confronting Jose to get him to stop the abuse, he threatened to expose his father and realized immediately that he made a mistake in doing so. He felt that Jose would not allow them to live, as being exposed would ruin him, and given that Kitty always put Jose first, he didn't think she would be on her sons' side either. Kitty told Erik that she knew all along what Jose was doing to him. While this may sound irrational to us, Jose and Kitty were frightening figures, who had controlled their sons from birth and made them dependent on them. The brothers knew that their relatives, who were just as frightened of their parents as they were, would not be able to help them, they didn't think the police would believe them (Jose was a Hollywood executive after all, the #MeToo Movement has taught us a lot about power in Hollywood) and since their father controlled everything, and had resources to track them down, it's easy to see why they didn't think they could escape. Jose and Kitty also owned shotguns themselves. Lyle and Erik bought shotguns for protection because they didn't think they would be alive when the two-week waiting period for handguns was up. This is another indication that it was done out of fear - shotguns are very loud, if they truly wanted to get away with it, why not wait the two weeks for handguns, which are much quieter?

Jose and Kitty were not asleep when they were shot. If you scroll back further in this thread, I posted the testimony from the first trial of the medical examiner, Dr. Irwin Golden. During cross-examination, Golden testified that the parents were most likely standing when they were shot; he was able to determine this by the pattern of wounds, as well as the fact that there were no bullet holes in the couch. In the second trial, the prosecutors did not call Dr. Golden as a witness. I wonder why? Another myth that has been debunked (despite people like Pamela Bozanich claiming it as fact) is that Jose and Kitty were not eating ice cream, or eating anything, when they were shot. The videotape footage of the crime scene and the testimony of Detective Les Zoeller, who stated that there was one empty glass with a spoon in it on the coffee table, confirms this; there was no food or bowls anywhere in the room.

Erik committed two burglaries, with his friends (something that tends to be downplayed or outright omitted). In the first burglary, one of the accomplices was the son of the owner of the house that was robbed, the other was Craig Cignarelli (who conveniently never mentions his involvement), Lyle was involved in the second burglary. They called them "hot prowls" and they saw it as a prank. However, the brothers attempted to return some of the stolen items, and accidentally returned them to the wrong house! Criminal masterminds, they were not. They had no use for any of the items they stole. I want to point out that this is not uncommon behavior for teenage and young adult males who were abused to engage in. While this doesn't make it right in any way, shape or form, this is not necessarily an indication of psychopathy (and by the way, the brothers have never been diagnosed as such).

While parricide is relatively rare, however, filicide (parents killing their children) is far more common, just as it is far more common for abusers to kill their victims rather than the other way around. According to a study published by CNN in 2016, 13% of victims of filicide were adults - 18 to 40 years old, when they were killed by one or both parents. That shows that being an adult doesn't mean the threat of that goes away, nor does it mean that abuse will necessarily stop from your parents once you are legally of age.

Lyle and Erik later realized that their parents were not going to kill them that night, but they were not thinking rationally. Lyle, however, still believes that Jose and Kitty would have killed them at some point.

The file marked "will" on the computer was corrupted, and even the computer expert that Lyle had hired was unable to access it. He was able to determine that there were only a few words in it, and even if there had been a draft of a will on the computer, it wouldn't have made any difference because a will is not valid unless it is signed. Lyle had the entire hard drive wiped because he was planning on selling the computer and didn't want there to be any private family information in it. As previously stated, there is corroborative testimony that Lyle and Erik believed they were disinherited at the time of the killings, and the financial motive offered up by the prosecution was never proven in either trial.

Lyle and Erik should have been arrested immediately; the fact that they were not is not because they were brilliant, it was due to police incompetency, in large part because the Beverly Hills Police Department was not used to dealing with homicides. They did not test the brothers' hands for gunpowder residue, which is police protocol. If they had, Lyle and Erik would have been arrested that night. They did not check the vehicles in the driveway - Erik still had some bloody clothes in his car. In a tape-recorded interview with Sergeant Tom Edmonds, Erik gave himself away several times, yet Edmonds didn't pick up on it.

As I previously stated, there was a lot of evidence in this case to support that the abuse happened, which went beyond eyewitness testimony. Expert testimony (including by Dr. Ann Burgess, FBI criminal profiler, crime scene analyst, and psychiatric nurse who specializes in the treatment of SA victims, including children), photographs, and medical records all corroborate the abuse. While physical evidence of SA is rare, the fact that the parents took CP photos of their sons and kept them is very significant, and it's the kind of evidence that would please a prosecutor in a child abuse case. There was far more evidence of abuse here than in most child abuse cases. Those CP photos should not exist, but the fact that they do is very strong confirmation. And then, there are the Menudo allegations, which have been around for years. Jose's West Coast Consultant Steve Wax stated that Jose joked about the Menudo sexual abuse allegations shortly before his death; in an article that I posted further back in this thread from when the jurors in the first trial were deliberating, Erik's attorney Leslie Abramson considered calling former band members as witnesses. Still, she didn't want to force them to talk if they weren't ready, and reasoned that it would probably ruin their careers, and she was likely right. Then, in the past year, former Menudo member Roy Rosello publicly came forward and stated that Jose, along with the group owner, Edgardo Diaz, sexually assaulted him when he was 14 years old. I don't think the "The brothers made up the SA" and the "Jose was not a sexual predator" statements can be considered with any kind of validity any longer.

Having said that, this does not mean that Lyle and Erik should not have been punished for their crime. An acquittal was never on the table. What they should have been convicted of is manslaughter, which 15 of the 24 jurors (there were two juries, one for each brother in the first trial) were in favor of. They were going to serve time in prison no matter what, it was about the degree of guilt.

I recommend watching the full first trial if you want to learn more details. I realize that it is very long, but it is crucial if you want not only to see the evidence and the facts, but to see that the prosecution didn't have much of a leg to stand on (they thought it was a slam dunk and underestimated the defense) and that's why they, along with the judge, blocked and limited the defense evidence in the second trial, because they knew they wouldn't get a conviction otherwise.

Respectfully, pranks are not burglaries, and stealing over $100,000 of jewels and money are not pranks. Some of the money/jewels had been spent creating the deficit that Jose paid back with a large check. Lyle and Erik report no consequences from their parents and reportedly Erik's counseling and community service were respectively paid by Jose and unfulfilled, but signed off on. Additionally, Erik reportedly took all of the blame because he was a minor at the time. The young men sound awfully spoiled to me. Lyle also reported no punishment from his parents, harsh or otherwise, for his plagiarism at Princeton. Moreover, not doing homework/papers and allowing parents to do it is just...I have no words. Can't be too afraid of your parents if they're doing your schoolwork. There was no punishment reported by the men for failing grades also. (My oldest son only told me into his 30's that he was the paper writer for some of his girlfriends and for several friends during high school and college. It's a pretty common practice apparently. Wish I'd known.) Jose hired Lyle during Lyle's mandated 'year off' from Princeton and Lyle 'worked' for very few hours and then stopped showing up at all, which makes me doubt Lyle's fear of Jose. Erik had recently been told that he was not going to live in the dorm or condo. He was told he would commute. Perhaps that was Jose and Kitty's way of making Erik accountable resulting in less of a disastrous academic experience as Lyle. Jose had only recently told the young men that he was disinheriting them and the murders were committed soon after. Jose and Kitty appeared to be trying to rein their sons in. IMO, I feel that Jose and Kitty were trying to hold accountable a couple of very coddled young men that had not experienced consequences for unacceptable behavior and the young men reacted with a nuclear option.
I feel for the men but do not feel this was self defense or any reason for murder.

*I must note that my DH was an expert medical witness for several years so I understand the ins and outs of that a bit more than most and our children graduated from an elite preparatory school so we also have experienced the way some affluent parents behave and justify their behavior, as well as their motivations.

 

[Noirdame79]

Respectfully, pranks are not burglaries, and stealing over $100,000 of jewels and money are not pranks. Some of the money/jewels had been spent creating the deficit that Jose paid back with a large check. Lyle and Erik report no consequences from their parents and reportedly Erik's counseling and community service were respectively paid by Jose and unfulfilled, but signed off on. Additionally, Erik reportedly took all of the blame because he was a minor at the time. The young men sound awfully spoiled to me. Lyle also reported no punishment from his parents, harsh or otherwise, for his plagiarism at Princeton. Moreover, not doing homework/papers and allowing parents to do it is just...I have no words. Can't be too afraid of your parents if they're doing your schoolwork. There was no punishment reported by the men for failing grades also. (My oldest son only told me into his 30's that he was the paper writer for some of his girlfriends and for several friends during high school and college. It's a pretty common practice apparently. Wish I'd known.) Jose hired Lyle during Lyle's mandated 'year off' from Princeton and Lyle 'worked' for very few hours and then stopped showing up at all, which makes me doubt Lyle's fear of Jose. Erik had recently been told that he was not going to live in the dorm or condo. He was told he would commute. Perhaps that was Jose and Kitty's way of making Erik accountable resulting in less of a disastrous academic experience as Lyle. Jose had only recently told the young men that he was disinheriting them and the murders were committed soon after. Jose and Kitty appeared to be trying to rein their sons in. IMO, I feel that Jose and Kitty were trying to hold accountable a couple of very coddled young men that had not experienced consequences for unacceptable behavior and the young men reacted with a nuclear option.
I feel for the men but do not feel this was self defense or any reason for murder.

*I must note that my DH was an expert medical witness for several years so I understand the ins and outs of that a bit more than most and our children graduated from an elite preparatory dchool so we also have experienced the way some affluent parents behave and justify their behavior, as well as their motivations.

Kitty started doing her son's homework early on. Of course, the robberies were not pranks but that's how they viewed them. It shows their lack of maturity. Again, if you watch the trial, the brothers' teachers testified that Lyle and Erik were terrified if they got a poor grade; Lyle once said that his father would kill him if he didn't make the headmaster's list and Erik would cry if he received a poor grade. Erik's teachers described him as a fearful child.

Again, the parents were massively controlling. They also encouraged their sons to lie, cheat, and steal, basically anything to win (Jose and Kitty were known to do this themselves), just don't get caught. Jose was more upset that Lyle and Erik were caught for the burglaries, not the fact that they stole. He had no intention of letting his sons go, even if he took them out of the will. Jose told his sons that they were disinherited in the spring of 1989; the killings happened in late August. If they wanted to kill their parents for money, it would have been earlier. The money motive simply does not hold up, and the prosecution was never able to prove it.

Jose and Kitty were abusive, frightening parents and terrible role models. Grown men were afraid of Jose. That should tell you something.

 

[otto]

They killed their mother to "put her out of her misery". That sounds like shooting a wounded animal. Who shoots their mother because they think she's better off dead? That's cold-blooded.

The reason they had to kill both parents was to ensure that they received the inheritance. Leaving their mother alive would not achieve their goal.

"Erik said they’d done it to put their mother “out of her misery,” while Lyle made it clear that they were both in on the crime.

Why the Menendez Brothers Killed Their Parents

Lyle and Erik Menendez cited emotional and sexual abuse, among other reasons, for the gruesome 1989 murders of their father and mother.

www.biography.com

 

[otto]

The educational neglect played a part in this because it was a contributing factor as to why the brothers had very little in the way of life skills - because they were not allowed or given the opportunity to develop any. They were rarely allowed to make their own decisions. This, coupled with ongoing abuse and dysfunction, left them emotionally stunted and led up to the events that happened. That's why is crucial to know and understand this. Trauma changes the way the brain develops, and this abuse starts during their babyhood. While they were legally of age when they killed their parents, they were not adults emotionally - their emotional age was estimated to be 8 to 10 years old, according to a psychologist who examined them in the L.A. County Jail. They had lived with this abuse and threats all their lives. which caused them to become hyper-vigilent. In addition, in the days leading up to the killings, they were not sleeping well which added to their nervous and frightened mental state. Lyle wanted to protect Erik, and in confronting Jose to get him to stop the abuse, he threatened to expose his father and realized immediately that he made a mistake in doing so. He felt that Jose would not allow them to live, as being exposed would ruin him, and given that Kitty always put Jose first, he didn't think she would be on her sons' side either. Kitty told Erik that she knew all along what Jose was doing to him. While this may sound irrational to us, Jose and Kitty were frightening figures, who had controlled their sons from birth and made them dependent on them. The brothers knew that their relatives, who were just as frightened of their parents as they were, would not be able to help them, they didn't think the police would believe them (Jose was a Hollywood executive after all, the #MeToo Movement has taught us a lot about power in Hollywood) and since their father controlled everything, and had resources to track them down, it's easy to see why they didn't think they could escape. Jose and Kitty also owned shotguns themselves. Lyle and Erik bought shotguns for protection because they didn't think they would be alive when the two-week waiting period for handguns was up. This is another indication that it was done out of fear - shotguns are very loud, if they truly wanted to get away with it, why not wait the two weeks for handguns, which are much quieter?

Jose and Kitty were not asleep when they were shot. If you scroll back further in this thread, I posted the testimony from the first trial of the medical examiner, Dr. Irwin Golden. During cross-examination, Golden testified that the parents were most likely standing when they were shot; he was able to determine this by the pattern of wounds, as well as the fact that there were no bullet holes in the couch. In the second trial, the prosecutors did not call Dr. Golden as a witness. I wonder why? Another myth that has been debunked (despite people like Pamela Bozanich claiming it as fact) is that Jose and Kitty were not eating ice cream, or eating anything, when they were shot. The videotape footage of the crime scene and the testimony of Detective Les Zoeller, who stated that there was one empty glass with a spoon in it on the coffee table, confirms this; there was no food or bowls anywhere in the room.

Erik committed two burglaries, with his friends (something that tends to be downplayed or outright omitted). In the first burglary, one of the accomplices was the son of the owner of the house that was robbed, the other was Craig Cignarelli (who conveniently never mentions his involvement), Lyle was involved in the second burglary. They called them "hot prowls" and they saw it as a prank. However, the brothers attempted to return some of the stolen items, and accidentally returned them to the wrong house! Criminal masterminds, they were not. They had no use for any of the items they stole. I want to point out that this is not uncommon behavior for teenage and young adult males who were abused to engage in. While this doesn't make it right in any way, shape or form, this is not necessarily an indication of psychopathy (and by the way, the brothers have never been diagnosed as such).

While parricide is relatively rare, however, filicide (parents killing their children) is far more common, just as it is far more common for abusers to kill their victims rather than the other way around. According to a study published by CNN in 2016, 13% of victims of filicide were adults - 18 to 40 years old, when they were killed by one or both parents. That shows that being an adult doesn't mean the threat of that goes away, nor does it mean that abuse will necessarily stop from your parents once you are legally of age.

Lyle and Erik later realized that their parents were not going to kill them that night, but they were not thinking rationally. Lyle, however, still believes that Jose and Kitty would have killed them at some point.

The file marked "will" on the computer was corrupted, and even the computer expert that Lyle had hired was unable to access it. He was able to determine that there were only a few words in it, and even if there had been a draft of a will on the computer, it wouldn't have made any difference because a will is not valid unless it is signed. Lyle had the entire hard drive wiped because he was planning on selling the computer and didn't want there to be any private family information in it. As previously stated, there is corroborative testimony that Lyle and Erik believed they were disinherited at the time of the killings, and the financial motive offered up by the prosecution was never proven in either trial.

Lyle and Erik should have been arrested immediately; the fact that they were not is not because they were brilliant, it was due to police incompetency, in large part because the Beverly Hills Police Department was not used to dealing with homicides. They did not test the brothers' hands for gunpowder residue, which is police protocol. If they had, Lyle and Erik would have been arrested that night. They did not check the vehicles in the driveway - Erik still had some bloody clothes in his car. In a tape-recorded interview with Sergeant Tom Edmonds, Erik gave himself away several times, yet Edmonds didn't pick up on it.

As I previously stated, there was a lot of evidence in this case to support that the abuse happened, which went beyond eyewitness testimony. Expert testimony (including by Dr. Ann Burgess, FBI criminal profiler, crime scene analyst, and psychiatric nurse who specializes in the treatment of SA victims, including children), photographs, and medical records all corroborate the abuse. While physical evidence of SA is rare, the fact that the parents took CP photos of their sons and kept them is very significant, and it's the kind of evidence that would please a prosecutor in a child abuse case. There was far more evidence of abuse here than in most child abuse cases. Those CP photos should not exist, but the fact that they do is very strong confirmation. And then, there are the Menudo allegations, which have been around for years. Jose's West Coast Consultant Steve Wax stated that Jose joked about the Menudo sexual abuse allegations shortly before his death; in an article that I posted further back in this thread from when the jurors in the first trial were deliberating, Erik's attorney Leslie Abramson considered calling former band members as witnesses. Still, she didn't want to force them to talk if they weren't ready, and reasoned that it would probably ruin their careers, and she was likely right. Then, in the past year, former Menudo member Roy Rosello publicly came forward and stated that Jose, along with the group owner, Edgardo Diaz, sexually assaulted him when he was 14 years old. I don't think the "The brothers made up the SA" and the "Jose was not a sexual predator" statements can be considered with any kind of validity any longer.

Having said that, this does not mean that Lyle and Erik should not have been punished for their crime. An acquittal was never on the table. What they should have been convicted of is manslaughter, which 15 of the 24 jurors (there were two juries, one for each brother in the first trial) were in favor of. They were going to serve time in prison no matter what, it was about the degree of guilt.

I recommend watching the full first trial if you want to learn more details. I realize that it is very long, but it is crucial if you want not only to see the evidence and the facts, but to see that the prosecution didn't have much of a leg to stand on (they thought it was a slam dunk and underestimated the defense) and that's why they, along with the judge, blocked and limited the defense evidence in the second trial, because they knew they wouldn't get a conviction otherwise.

The only person who would claim that they were abused because their mother helped them with homework is a sociopath. It's twisted thinking.

All responsible parents help their children with homework at some point. As long as their children pass their exams - which are completed without parental assistance - there is no downside.

Lyle and Eric passed their exams without parental assistance, therefore receiving help with school work had no negative impact. Help with homework is not abuse or neglect. To suggest that it is abuse demonstrates a desperate long-shot to find fault with parents.

 

[otto]

<respectfully snipped, BBM>
Erik committed two burglaries, with his friends (something that tends to be downplayed or outright omitted). In the first burglary, one of the accomplices was the son of the owner of the house that was robbed, the other was Craig Cignarelli (who conveniently never mentions his involvement), Lyle was involved in the second burglary. They called them "hot prowls" and they saw it as a prank. However, the brothers attempted to return some of the stolen items, and accidentally returned them to the wrong house! Criminal masterminds, they were not. They had no use for any of the items they stole. I want to point out that this is not uncommon behavior for teenage and young adult males who were abused to engage in. While this doesn't make it right in any way, shape or form, this is not necessarily an indication of psychopathy (and by the way, the brothers have never been diagnosed as such).

Was the burglary a prank? In 1988, Erik was thinking about how to murder parents for inheritance. That same year, Lyle, Erik and a friend robbed families of money and jewellery. They were arrested after their friend reported them to police.

Erik and Lyle had plenty of use for stolen money (e.g.: rolex, porsche). For a year prior to the murders, Erik was thinking about how to get money without working.

It is extremely uncommon behaviour for adult males to commit home invasions to steal money and jewellery. It's a criminal offence, and most young men want a better life than that of a criminal.

1988: Before the murders
"Erik and his close high school friend, Craig, wrote a movie about a wealthy young man who kills his parents for money. Kitty reportedly transcribed and typed the screenplay. It was never allowed into evidence during the later trials, but it is a key point of reference."

1988: Burglaries
"Lyle had been suspended from Princeton for plagiarism, and was back home in California. During this time, the two brother committed two major burglaries. As Dominick Dunne wrote in Vanity Fair, "These burglaries were not inconsequential; they involved money, property, and some serious jewelry, in the $100,000 range, taken from the safes in neighbors’ houses. One of Erik’s friends, who had discovered the combination to the safe of a friend’s father, participated in the first heist. That friend, who was cut out of the second burglary, turned them in."

He continued, "Jose decided that Erik, who was under-age at the time, would take the fall for both boys. In a deal worked out by their lawyer, Erik got probation and compulsory counseling." Erik then started seeing Dr. Jerome Oziel, and Erik signed a confidentiality waiver so Oziel could share anything he learned with Jose and Kitty."

Murders, Confessions, and Trials: A Definitive Timeline of the Entire Menendez Brothers Case

From Lyle and Erik's August 1989 murder of their parents through their March 1996 conviction.

www.townandcountrymag.com

 

[otto]

In 1988, Erik was scheming with a friend to commit the perfect crime. He then wrote a story about how to commit the perfect crime of murdering parents for inheritance. Then he was involved in burglaries totalling $100,000 - a perfect crime except for the friend who reported him.

It's interesting that Erik believed himself to be smarter than everyone else, but his defence is that he was an abused child because he was too stupid to do his homework?

March 9, 1990
"In interviews over the last several months, Cignarelli recalled how he and Erik would drive out to Malibu late at night. On a hilltop overlooking the ocean they talked about their hopes for the future, about how much smarter they were than everyone else, and about how to commit the perfect crime.

He said they wrote the play two years ago in hopes of selling it to Hollywood. Called “Friends,” the sometimes intricate and confusing plot focuses on the criminal exploits of Hamilton Cromwell, 18, who lives a pampered life but has a fascination with dying. The first scene opens with Cromwell reading the family will, which bestows a fortune of $157 million on him."

Erik Menendez, Friend Wrote Screenplay of Perfect Murder

Erik Menendez and a close friend once wrote a 66-page screenplay about committing the perfect murder, the friend, Craig Cignarelli, said in an interview with The Times.

www.latimes.com

 

[otto]

Erik had a pampered life, and a fascination with dying? Is that why he shot his mother in the knee three times to start? Lyle shot their father, Erik was supposed to shoot his mother but he wounded her so many times that they had to reload to kill her with the 10th bullet. Lyle shot 4 times before blasting off his father's head at close range. Then he shot his mother in the cheek to "put her out of her misery".

I wonder what they said while they slowly shot their parents to death. How long did the shooting last? In the film, the Billionaire's Boys Club, shooting close range at the skull can cause the brain to pop out. It happened with Paul Murdaugh. Is that what fascinated Erik about dying?

Hamilton Cromwell sounds so British. Erik Menendez sounds German Cuban. Did Erik have identity issues, preferring to be born different than he was? Did he want to be a British Aristocrat, like the former owner of Harrods?

"He said they wrote the play two years ago in hopes of selling it to Hollywood. Called “Friends,” the sometimes intricate and confusing plot focuses on the criminal exploits of Hamilton Cromwell, 18, who lives a pampered life but has a fascination with dying."​

same link as above

 

[MassGuy]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1841964107727257974

 

[Seattle1]

10/2/24

https://ktla.com/news/california/menendez-brothers-conviction-update/

Gascón said he believed the convictions of the Menendez brothers deserved to be reevaluated following the alleged discovery of new evidence, as well as questions regarding testimony being disallowed in the second trial that ultimately led to their life sentences.

 

[Seattle1]

L.A. County D.A. Reevaluating Evidence in Menendez Brothers Case

The L.A. County District Attorney is about to make an announcement about the Menendez brothers, who have been in prison for the murder of their parents for nearly 35 years.

www.tmz.com

10/3/24

2:52 PM PT -- The L.A. County D.A. just said they are reviewing the claims of Erik and Lyle Menendez that they were molested by the father they killed, and he will decide if they should get a new trial or if the D.A. should go for a new sentence -- presumably manslaughter -- that could set them free.

George Gascón said his office is aware of the new claims by a former member of the band Menudo -- who says Jose Menendez molested him. That's highly relevant, because it goes to whether the judge in the second trial erred by not allowing evidence in that Jose allegedly molested his sons.

A hearing is scheduled for November 29.

 

[Seattle1]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1841972788690653482

 

[Dotta]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1842204008183681437

 

[otto]

That would set an interesting precedent. Adults who imagine that their parents will do something against them can shoot their parents 5-10 times each and it's manslaughter.

There might be a few greedy adults who are eye-balling their parents wealth, and weighing the option of a few years in prison for manslaughter in exchange for that money. One of the downsides is that they have to read some books about sexual abuse of children, and then testify that those experiences were their experiences.

 

[theonewithallthequestions]

That would set an interesting precedent. Adults who imagine that their parents will do something against them can shoot their parents 5-10 times each and it's manslaughter.

There might be a few greedy adults who are eye-balling their parents wealth, and weighing the option of a few years in prison for manslaughter in exchange for that money. One of the downsides is that they have to read some books about sexual abuse of children, and then testify that those experiences were their experiences.

It’s not simply the word of the brothers that they were abused. A multitude of family members, friends, and top experts (Dr. John Conte, Dr. Ann Burgess, Dr. Stuart Hart, Dr. Ann Tyler) corroborated the abuse. There is no proof that they “read some books about sexual abuse of children” and then lied that it was their experiences.

If you watch the first trial, it is clear to see that money and greed were not the motives. The media definitely ran with that narrative (successfully since it still has a hold on so many people to this day), but the prosecution actually had a pretty weak case in that regard.

 

[Betty P]

Was the burglary a prank? In 1988, Erik was thinking about how to murder parents for inheritance. That same year, Lyle, Erik and a friend robbed families of money and jewellery. They were arrested after their friend reported them to police.

Erik and Lyle had plenty of use for stolen money (e.g.: rolex, porsche). For a year prior to the murders, Erik was thinking about how to get money without working.

It is extremely uncommon behaviour for adult males to commit home invasions to steal money and jewellery. It's a criminal offence, and most young men want a better life than that of a criminal.

1988: Before the murders
"Erik and his close high school friend, Craig, wrote a movie about a wealthy young man who kills his parents for money. Kitty reportedly transcribed and typed the screenplay. It was never allowed into evidence during the later trials, but it is a key point of reference."

1988: Burglaries
"Lyle had been suspended from Princeton for plagiarism, and was back home in California. During this time, the two brother committed two major burglaries. As Dominick Dunne wrote in Vanity Fair, "These burglaries were not inconsequential; they involved money, property, and some serious jewelry, in the $100,000 range, taken from the safes in neighbors’ houses. One of Erik’s friends, who had discovered the combination to the safe of a friend’s father, participated in the first heist. That friend, who was cut out of the second burglary, turned them in."

He continued, "Jose decided that Erik, who was under-age at the time, would take the fall for both boys. In a deal worked out by their lawyer, Erik got probation and compulsory counseling." Erik then started seeing Dr. Jerome Oziel, and Erik signed a confidentiality waiver so Oziel could share anything he learned with Jose and Kitty."

Murders, Confessions, and Trials: A Definitive Timeline of the Entire Menendez Brothers Case

From Lyle and Erik's August 1989 murder of their parents through their March 1996 conviction.

www.townandcountrymag.com

They were budding sociopaths from an early age. Some of it they probably learned at home, some from peers at school and in their neighborhood.

Burglarizing homes is not unheard of among teens in wealthy, upper class neighborhoods. It happened in Shaker Heights, OH around the time a teen girl, Lisa Pruett was murdered in the early 90’s. Same with robbery, vandalism and murder among the Skakel children and other wealthy neighbors in Greenwich, CT. Very spoiled kids with parents who were busy and often away from home.

The Menendez brothers took the robberies to a higher level if they stole that much. They were learning at home and elsewhere to place a high value on acquiring money and luxury items, cars, etc. The robberies were a special challenge. As usual, their parents helped take care of things when they were caught.

The fact they were showing these aberrant behaviors at an early age doesn’t bode well for them. JMO, they seem likely to offend again if they’re released early..

 

[LadyL]

If the boys were abused as they say, then i understand why they killed their parents. Easy for anyone to say, just leave. You can say that about a female who id an absuive relationship. Its not that simple.

If they were raised in loving stable home would they have murdered their parents?

I watched the Netflix series and thought the term monsters were in reference to their parents.

I also believe that the abuse didnt just stop at being physical, sexual or verbal abuse. I believe the lavish gifts are also a form of abuse, especially when it may have been the only form of “love” they received.

We can argue did Jose and Kitty deserve to die… well did the boys deserve the abuse?

These boys are a product of their parents either which way you look at it

[bbm]

not necessarily, some people are just born evil

 

[LadyL]

I think everyone enjoys a good scandal, even in 1980. If two young men told Hollywood that their hollywood executive dad was a sex offender, everyone would be listening. That would have kept the tabloids in-the-money for years.

Life in 1980 was much the same as today - only difference today is the internet and more people on the planet. People were not uneducated or ignorant in 1980. They were the generation that invented the computer and the internet. They deserve a little credit.

Regarding murder for millions, any thoughts on why the two young men immediately went on a spending spree after they murdered their parents? Porsche, Rolex, restaurant, house, bodyguards, limousines, chauffeur. Was it Retail Therapy?

July 28, 1993

"Within a week after his parents were killed, Lyle Menendez went on a spending spree, shopping for a Porsche, a house, a restaurant and clothes and hiring a bodyguard, a good friend and the bodyguard testified Tuesday.

When Menendez ventured outside, he rode in a limousine, trailed discreetly by guards in a second car, a “crash vehicle” that could ferry him to safety in an emergency, bodyguard Richard Wenskoski said.
...

Wenskoski and a partner provided 24-hour-a-day service and accompanied Lyle Menendez on his many shopping trips, even a 15-minute test ride in a white Porsche, Wenskoski said. Lyle Menendez drove the car and zipped along over the speed limit, Wenskoski said.
...

Wherever he went that fall, Lyle Menendez sported a Rolex watch, Stevens said.
...

In late 1989, Lyle Menendez made a $300,000 down payment on a $550,000 Princeton restaurant that specialized in spicy buffalo wings, Stevens said. He added that he was being paid $600 a week to oversee it and Lyle’s investments.
...

At the parents’ wake, Stevens said, Lyle Menendez told him: “Well, I’ve been waiting so long to be in this position, that I’m prepared for it.”"

Lyle Menendez Went on Spree After Killings, Witnesses Say

Within a week after his parents were killed, Lyle Menendez went on a spending spree, shopping for a Porsche, a house, a restaurant and clothes and hiring a bodyguard, a good friend and the bodyguard testified Tuesday.

www.latimes.com

why would he think he needed a bodyguard? and a second 'crash' vehicle? was he being threatened?

 

[theonewithallthequestions]

They were budding sociopaths from an early age. Some of it they probably learned at home, some from peers at school and in their neighborhood.

Burglarizing homes is not unheard of among teens in wealthy, upper class neighborhoods. It happened in Shaker Heights, OH around the time a teen girl, Lisa Pruett was murdered in the early 90’s. Same with robbery, vandalism and murder among the Skakel children and other wealthy neighbors in Greenwich, CT. Very spoiled kids with parents who were busy and often away from home.

The Menendez brothers took the robberies to a higher level if they stole that much. They were learning at home and elsewhere to place a high value on acquiring money and luxury items, cars, etc. The robberies were a special challenge. As usual, their parents helped take care of things when they were caught.

The fact they were showing these aberrant behaviors at an early age doesn’t bode well for them. JMO, they seem likely to offend again if they’re released early..

I highly doubt they’d reoffend if released. They have both been model prisoners and have had years of intense therapy

There were only 2 burglaries. Only 1 in which both brothers were involved with. They did not commit these burglaries on their own, they were with a group of Erik’s friends from Calabasas/Beverly Hills High. Including one friend that the prosecution used (Craig Cignarelli). Before being caught, they felt guilty and tried returning the stolen items, but accidentally returned the items to the wrong home. Hardly the sign of sociopaths

As far as I’m aware, none of the doctors or experts have ever said that either brother is a sociopath

 

[LadyL]

Kitty started doing her son's homework early on. Of course, the robberies were not pranks but that's how they viewed them. It shows their lack of maturity. Again, if you watch the trial, the brothers' teachers testified that Lyle and Erik were terrified if they got a poor grade; Lyle once said that his father would kill him if he didn't make the headmaster's list and Erik would cry if he received a poor grade. Erik's teachers described him as a fearful child.

Again, the parents were massively controlling. They also encouraged their sons to lie, cheat, and steal, basically anything to win (Jose and Kitty were known to do this themselves), just don't get caught. Jose was more upset that Lyle and Erik were caught for the burglaries, not the fact that they stole. He had no intention of letting his sons go, even if he took them out of the will. Jose told his sons that they were disinherited in the spring of 1989; the killings happened in late August. If they wanted to kill their parents for money, it would have been earlier. The money motive simply does not hold up, and the prosecution was never able to prove it.

Jose and Kitty were abusive, frightening parents and terrible role models. Grown men were afraid of Jose. That should tell you something.

[bbm]

that shows they were lying and manipulating people from a young age, like most sociopaths