Identified! CA - Dana Point, WhtFem 23UFCA, 18-23, cliff jump, Sep'87 - Holly Glynn

[Ada Wong]

I have not as I'm still holding out hope of eventually finding something somewhere which makes a more clear link between the two cases.

If you or anyone else wants to get this sorted out far more quickly than I'm likely to, you have my blessing to go forward with that.

 

[DrDMike]

I don't think she had ties to San Diego. If she did, why would she need a map?

 

[kg0421]

I don't think she had ties to San Diego. If she did, why would she need a map?

San Diego is pretty far from Dana Point--far enough that one might need a map to navigate the area. If you live in a heavily populated area, think about a town about one or one and a half hours away from you, and tell me if you know that town well enough to navigate without use of a map or smartphone. I sure don't.

That being said I still believe this girl came from the east coast. I think I remember reading an article stating she was believed to have stayed with a couple in California for a few nights a few weeks before she was found dead, and had told them her name was Jenny and she was a runaway from Tennessee. I can't find that article anymore so I don't know if I'm confusing it with another case, or just making it up completely, but regardless I feel like the fact this girl was wearing secondhand clothing that didn't fit her and wasn't even women's clothing, carrying a purse that had been stolen ten years prior, and even how unkempt her hair looks in the sketch--I'm guessing she had been homeless for some time, and we're not necessarily looking for someone who went missing days or even weeks before she was found.

If she had extensive dental work and a prior D&C, it's likely she was well taken care of as a child/teen and was a runaway. I would guess she probably ran away after or around the same time as the D&C, since they can be expensive and very traumatizing. Since she is described as "well-developed," it is also likely she reached puberty early and maybe had relationships with older men as a result, resulting in a pregnancy even as early as 14 or 15. The fact she entered a hotel and asked where any "high-end hotels" were when she clearly couldn't afford one makes me think she could have been looking to prostitute herself or panhandle where rich men were staying. It sounds like she was most definitely homeless and probably had been so for at least a year.

I think we are looking for a teenager who ran away between 1980-1986, although it's possible she could have run away as early as 1975. She may not be listed on any missing persons websites, especially if she was kicked out of her house as a teen for having relationships with older men or getting pregnant. It sounds like she traveled to California from another part of the country based on the amount and type of maps she had but it's not out of the question she was from CA.

 

[Ada Wong]

I think I remember reading an article stating she was believed to have stayed with a couple in California for a few nights a few weeks before she was found dead, and had told them her name was Jenny and she was a runaway from Tennessee.

I'm fairly certain that I've read everything which exists about this case, and I've never heard of anything even similar to that. Unless someone can provide some verification, I can only assume you're confusing this with some other case.

I feel like the fact this girl was wearing secondhand clothing that didn't fit her and wasn't even women's clothing [. . .]

The only clothing she was wearing which wasn't women's clothing was her underwear. I pointed out a while ago, though I'm sure it's been a few years at this point, that quite a few women wear men's underwear because they find them more comfortable. It's also not at all uncommon among lesbians, and it wouldn't have been a shock for those who were getting involved in the movements that would lead to third wave feminism and riot grrrl (mentioned because she was at least on the right coast for it).

I heard on the Unsolved Mysteries broadcast that the clothing appeared to be secondhand, but I don't recall comments about how well it fit her. It's possible I'm blanking out on something though. Do you have a source for that?

The fact she entered a hotel and asked where any "high-end hotels" were when she clearly couldn't afford one makes me think she could have been looking to prostitute herself or panhandle where rich men were staying.

The "high end hotels" thing comes from The Doe Network. The Los Angeles Times claims she asked if there were any tall buildings in the area. When a major American newspaper and The Doe Network contradict on something, I'm always going to go with the newspaper. The LA Times employs professional fact checkers and Internet websites usually don't.

My gut feeling is that someone heard "high rise buildings" and managed to turn "high rise" into "high end" via mishearing/misreading and "buildings" into "hotels" because she or he had been writing about hotels and had them on the mind. It just makes the most sense, at least to me, that she'd decided to end her life and was simply trying to find a spot to jump from.

Even if I'm wrong, I don't think the prostitution idea makes a lot of sense. Men who can afford to stay at expensive hotels can probably afford escort services too, so they'd have little need for street prostitution. Also, street prostitutes have to market themselves in a certain way, and Jane Doe seems oblivious to it if that was her goal. Gaining customers depends upon the use of things like a provocative style of dress, yet the woman wore a pair of canvas shoes and some men's briefs?

Panhandling sounds a lot more reasonable.

 

[wintermute]

she'd decided to end her life and was simply trying to find a spot to jump from.

I agree with this statement. I think it is very likely that a person who wants to commit suicide via jumping would first think of a tall building as an option. That is probably what she was seeking initially, and then she happened to find the cliff instead.

 

[Bobby88]

I wonder if Jane Doe could have been from an Amish family. Rumspringa is the name given to the rite of passage wherein adolescents are made to choose between baptism in the Amish church or leaving the community to live in mainstream society. From what I understand, the relatives of those young people who choose to leave the Amish community essentially "forget about" that child and cut off all ties.

Perhaps Jane was one of the few young Amish people who chose to live in mainstream society and couldn't handle it as well as she thought. With no family or community to turn to for guidance, she may have figured that life was no longer worth living and just decided to end it.

 

[EmmaliLucia]

According to an Amish Studies website:

"Wayward members can always return and be reinstated if they confess. People who leave the Amish but were never baptized are not excommunicated or shunned, because they never made baptismal vows."

Rumspringa is before a person becomes baptised (I think that they literally cannot get baptised before the age of 16 for consent reasons {One of the reasons the Amish were formed was due to breaking away from forced baptisms and the freedom of choosing their own religion}) So if she were to never return from Rumspringa no one would go looking for her, but they wouldn't shun her or forget that she existed. She could always go back, then again severely depressed people RARELY think logically.

 

[necco]

I wonder if Jane Doe could have been from an Amish family. Rumspringa is the name given to the rite of passage wherein adolescents are made to choose between baptism in the Amish church or leaving the community to live in mainstream society. From what I understand, the relatives of those young people who choose to leave the Amish community essentially "forget about" that child and cut off all ties.

Perhaps Jane was one of the few young Amish people who chose to live in mainstream society and couldn't handle it as well as she thought. With no family or community to turn to for guidance, she may have figured that life was no longer worth living and just decided to end it.

Honestly, I often wonder that about Jane and John Does. I do think at least a few probably were Anabaptists of one form or another. (Amish, Old Order Mennonites, Hutterites as well as a few other groups.) I also wonder if some could be from groups like the FLDS (Although this I wonder more about with John Does because of their 'Lost boys')

 

[q64ceo]

Has anyone suggested Vicky Sundgaard?

 

[EmmaliLucia]

Has anyone suggested Vicky Sundgaard?

Looks wise, I could totally see it.

Circumstances wise, sounds highly unlikely.

She left behind her purse, her car, her children, and her asthma inhaler all in Minnesota.

I don't think Vicki left the state, I think either her husband or Michael Dale Benson killed her and probably hid her body somewhere, Alexandria is absolutely surrounded by lakes, and they have some forests within an hours drive.

 

[Ada Wong]

Has anyone suggested Vicky Sundgaard?

Sundgaard doesn't seem right to me at all. On top of what EmmaliLucia said, there are other issues to contend with.

According to NamUs:

Vicky had her ears pierced when she was a teenager but she let them grow closed because she had a problem wearing most jewelry due to skin sensitivity to metal.

Yet our Jane Doe was sporting three piercings.

Vicky was an asthmatic who, if we presume she disappeared willingly, had left her inhaler behind. Our Jane Doe was a cigarette smoker.

I can see a bit of a facial resemblance, so I see where you're coming from with the suggestion. I just don't think it's at all likely.

 

[websurfer]

After watching this case episode on Unsolved Mysteries,I figured I would ask fellow WS'ers a few questions I have come up with.

Where was the stolen purse stolen from in 1975?
The name:
The police spoke with a Carol Pinkham who had the same color purse stolen in 1975.
now?
The female is estimated to be between : 18-23 years of age so?
If the purse was stolen in 1975 she would only have been between
what ages at the time of her stealing the purse?
This happened[ her death] September 20,1987
so taking 1975
______
12
so she would have been between 6- 11 at the time the purse she had was stolen.
Also her clothing is described as being second hand so she no doubt bought the purse and clothing from a second hand store?

I did compare the descriptions between the Unsolved Mysteries site and the Doe site and the Orange County Sheriff's Department Does from 1968 to present.
Her description matches the doe site but not the UM site.
Anyway, does anyone have any fresh ideas?
I was thinking she may have run away years earlier?
And the last person to speak or see her was the cab driver.
Anyone know anything about the cab driver? was she assaulted at all in any way?
:twocents:

 

[RoseGarden]

Has our Dana Point Jane Doe been compared to Linda Ann House? So much is close, yet the House description is meager, giving her weight while pregnant (in 1985). And the height doesn't match, but there again, I don't think we have an accurate picture of this woman, there is so little available. Here's a link, her overall look is right, hair color is right, and "previous pregnancy" could fit... http://www.missingin.org/reg4614/linda_ann_house.htm

The Dana Point girl had "a slightly upturned nose and some freckles" so that could help. Ideas... searching...

 

[Ada Wong]

I don't know about anyone else, but I've never looked into Linda Ann House before.

That said, the height issue really bothers me. It wouldn't be a big deal if it was minor, but Linda was 5'9" and Jane Doe was measured at 5'4". I know plenty of people who've had estimations off by two or three inches, but five is really stretching it.

Also, Linda was reported to have gold caps on her back teeth. According to her dental chart, our Jane Doe had a single crown on one of her lower right teeth.

Then there's the third issue: If Linda House willingly left her life behind while pregnant and ended up giving birth, where did this happen and what happened to the child? I guess it's a bias I have, but I always tend to fear the worst when pregnant women disappear.

Edit: I forgot to add another something else. House would've been nearing her 31st birthday when Jane Doe died. The early news articles, I guess before the 18-23 range was firmly established, described our Jane Doe as a teenager or about twenty years old. If the one picture is any indication, Linda definitely looked her age, and I cannot envision a scenario in which I would've ever mistaken her for someone nearly a decade younger.

 

[RoseGarden]

I don't know about anyone else, but I've never looked into Linda Ann House before.

That said, the height issue really bothers me. It wouldn't be a big deal if it was minor, but Linda was 5'9" and Jane Doe was measured at 5'4". I know plenty of people who've had estimations off by two or three inches, but five is really stretching it.

Also, Linda was reported to have gold caps on her back teeth. According to her dental chart, our Jane Doe had a single crown on one of her lower right teeth.

Then there's the third issue: If Linda House willingly left her life behind while pregnant and ended up giving birth, where did this happen and what happened to the child? I guess it's a bias I have, but I always tend to fear the worst when pregnant women disappear.

Edit: I forgot to add another something else. House would've been nearing her 31st birthday when Jane Doe died. The early news articles, I guess before the 18-23 range was firmly established, described our Jane Doe as a teenager or about twenty years old. If the one picture is any indication, Linda definitely looked her age, and I cannot envision a scenario in which I would've ever mistaken her for someone nearly a decade younger.

I agree - she wouldn't be a match, and after studying Dana Point Jane Doe's image so intently for so long, I have a much better sense of the bone structure, too. Thank you, Ada

Has it been confirmed absolutely and without a doubt that the Carol Pinkham in San Diego had the middle initial "L" - I can only find those with middle initial "S" or "A" having ever lived in San Diego - extensive hunting, I might add Thanks, Ada and Sleuthers!

 

[Ada Wong]

The Doe Network is the only source I've ever seen on the Carol Pinkham info, and there are things I think it's highly likely they've erred on, but I'm hopeful they got that right.

Ms. Pinkham might be difficult to locate for a variety of reasons. She could've moved away and left no easily detectable records of her time in San Diego, her name could've changed, she might have died at some point in the last twenty-six years, etc.

I'd never tell you that information about her can't be found — I've unearthed way too much over the years to ever say something like that — but it's likely to be a huge time sink. I wouldn't expect a huge reward either. Pinkham, when she was originally contacted, sadly wasn't able to identify our Jane Doe.

 

[RoseGarden]

Okay, next ruminations... the purse contained no driver's license, no wallet, no lipstick, no chapstick, in fact, hardly anything. Was the map provided to Dana Jane Doe at the Hampton Inn, and was it a hotel clerk who wrote on the map the tourist spots and notes? And there was no pen or pencil in the purse, correct? Of course, no car keys, though Dana Jane had mentioned a "car that broke down" at one point. So, those little questions lead me to one bigger one: Why find out about tourist spots and attractions, while suicidal? These seem to be contradictory, unless this was a sort of "bucket list" for the poor girl. Her story breaks my heart. If she was picked up by the cabbie at Hampton Inn, to ostensibly transport her to Laguna Beach (Ritz Carlton, correct?), then the stop on the distant side street in Dana Point (I live here) is odd. It is definitely not on the main road, and is far removed from civilization (in 1987). Was this in some way her request of the cabbie? Take me to as close to the ocean as I can get?
Last thought before I head out: She had two pierced earring holes in one ear, one in the other. Usually there would be earrings on a young girl. And yet she had no jewelry, no earrings or necklace or watch.... Maybe she sold them along the way for cash? Just more for me to think over... any thoughts on these idiosyncrasies? TIA

 

[Ada Wong]

Okay, next ruminations... the purse contained no driver's license, no wallet, no lipstick, no chapstick, in fact, hardly anything.

She could have, especially if she was sufficiently impoverished, simply not had any of those things. There's also the possibility that she might have purposefully disposed of possessions prior to her suicide.

Was the map provided to Dana Jane Doe at the Hampton Inn, and was it a hotel clerk who wrote on the map the tourist spots and notes?

The Doe Network states that it was a map which looked like it was for tourists, so it's pretty safe to assume that the locations of tourist spots and notes about them were printed on the map itself. I have no idea where she got the map at, but it's probable that such maps were pretty widely available. I'm not in a particularly huge area, but I know I can easily find tourist maps of my local area without a problem. Do you have the same sort of experience in your area?

It seems that all the handwriting is assumed to belong to our Jane Doe.

So, those little questions lead me to one bigger one: Why find out about tourist spots and attractions, while suicidal? These seem to be contradictory, unless this was a sort of "bucket list" for the poor girl.

As sad as it sounds, she may in fact have just been scouting locations.

Of course it's also possible that she did in fact have a bucket list of sorts. That wouldn't be unheard of either.

This man is known to have spent the day at Disneyland before he committed suicide.

This man locked himself inside a motel room with a Super Nintendo and three of his favorite role-playing games. He apparently played through them before killing himself.

Her story breaks my heart. If she was picked up by the cabbie at Hampton Inn, to ostensibly transport her to Laguna Beach (Ritz Carlton, correct?), then the stop on the distant side street in Dana Point (I live here) is odd. It is definitely not on the main road, and is far removed from civilization (in 1987). Was this in some way her request of the cabbie? Take me to as close to the ocean as I can get?

It breaks my heart too. Well, it scared the hell out of me when I was little and Unsolved Mysteries basically twisted it into, "Beware, mysterious strangers might throw you off cliffs!" (I'm still angry about how they handled this case.) But now it just breaks my heart. I wish she could be here to see that people still care about her.

I have no way of knowing for certain, but it's probably safe to assume that she directed the cab driver toward the cliffs. You're obviously far more familiar with the location than I am, and I'll tend to trust you if you say there's no other sensible reason to go that way.

Last thought before I head out: She had two pierced earring holes in one ear, one in the other. Usually there would be earrings on a young girl. And yet she had no jewelry, no earrings or necklace or watch.... Maybe she sold them along the way for cash? Just more for me to think over... any thoughts on these idiosyncrasies? TIA

From where did you get the idea that she wasn't wearing her earrings? I don't think I've ever seen anything which says either way, and I just always took that to mean the actual jewelry was there. I'm definitely interested in picking up new information, so please inform me if I'm off base.

I personally don't have my ears pierced, and I don't wear any jewelry or even a watch. Yes, I'm the weirdo who is living proof that it's possible to escape all of that. She might have had these things and sold them, or she might have been a true iconoclast like me who just decided she was too darn good for you lousy watch-wearers.

But seriously, that is something new for me to consider. I'd never really taken that into consideration since it was completely irrelevant to what I do. I love it when there's a new thought process.

 

[Sleuthster]

I don't know if this has been pointed out but intellus shows a Carol L. Pinkham age 47 residing in California. I wonder if this person has been contacted to see if she knew someone back then that disappeared and could have had her purse? Or if she'd had her purse stolen? Long shot but ironic that there are only 2 CP's between 41-50 and one lives in California.

 

[Ada Wong]

According to the Doe Network, the purse was stolen in 1975, so this Carol would've been only nine years old at the time. While theoretically a possibility, it seems improbable that such a young girl would both own an adult purse and have had it personalized.