Found Deceased CA - Fang Jin, 47, flew to LA from China, train to Palm Springs, Morongo Basin, 21 Jul 2023, w/ John Root Fitzpatrick, 55, (fnd dec.), 30 Jul ‘23 #3

[10ofRods]

I live in So Cal, not too far from the various locations mentioned in this thread. I frequently drive through the desert areas and show one or two bars of signal but cannot send messages or make a phone call. The reverse is also true, that I show I have service but I cannot receive text messages of phone calls (I'll get a delayed notification or show a missed call when I should've been able to receive the call). So, it seems that I am connecting to a tower but despite the bars on my phone, the signal is not strong enough. This has happened with Verizon and T-Mobile, so it seems more of a signal/connectivity issue than a carrier issue? Anyway, just some thoughts about why no contact could be made even though the phones were supposedly "on."

Hi, neighbor! Same here. And it has even happened to me in fairly urban places. I'm AT&T, so between us, we're covering all the carriers! One reason it happens in the desert is that there are many low-lying places surrounded by hills (that might count as mountains back east) and mountains. Basins (like Morongo area) have better luck. I figure that the ping in Julian might well have happened while JRF was still on the highway (which passes on a flat from Salton Sea most of the way up to Julian and the Julian mast is designed to transmit signals from that region (Julian itself has poor service on its western side, IMO).

I think it's important, too, to keep in mind that in addition to everything you've described, the counties involved are very large, highly populated, and struggling with time and resources so that might add to the delay. In my area alone, we have many missing people and murders being actively investigated. Make that countywide, and it must be overwhelming. Add in a couple of other counties...there is a lot of information to collect and coordinate.

Oh, absolutely. SBCSO is one of the most stretched LE systems in California, perhaps one of the thinnest forces west of the Rockies! I've mentioned before that locals have taken out billboards to criticism them. There are many more missing people in SBC than are listed here on websleuths. I don't know the total, but California alone has 20,000 missing persons, approximately.

Even if LE believe that FJ was murdered, if they also believe it was JRF who did it, there's not much urgency compared to finding missing kids, teens, impaired elderly who are thought to be in a city - and of course, finding murderers and violent criminals who have committed crimes and not been brought to justice.

At the same time, I read here on WS (don't recall the source) that a search is being organized near Harper Flat.

The counties are both "highly populated" and incredibly empty. IOW, 95% of residents live in one of the county's big cities. Ocotillo Wells (the "town" closest to where JRF was found) has 129 people (they think). Julian has a whopping 1318. Electricty can be intermittent in many places (as it is in Morongo Valley; population 3166). That's a very small town - a village, really.

2.1 MILLION people live in SBCSO. Only 3000 or so of them live in Morongo Valley. And JRF lived just outside of Morongo Valley proper (although I'm guessing that the mobile home park might be counted as part of MV's population, don't know).

In short, the areas where JRF was taking JF were sparsely populated, with mostly locals on the roads.

That last trip through JT was on a well traveled road - but it's so strange that he didn't take her to (or she didn't take pictures of) the delightful Cholla cactus garden (also home to some of the most amazing Joshua Trees, nearby) OR to Jumbo Rocks. Or the page sights on Drive Park. Amazing pictures to be had. They apparently did not go near the southern part of the park or visit any of the amazing exhibits the park has set up.

This page about Great Palm Springs has one of the most icononic of these stops as its banner and many other classic pictures and tips about the best parts of the park.

If anyone has gone carefully over JF's pictures and can clue us in as to whether she got to see any of these major sites, please post!

IMO.

 

[Herat]

Hi, neighbor! Same here. And it has even happened to me in fairly urban places. I'm AT&T, so between us, we're covering all the carriers! One reason it happens in the desert is that there are many low-lying places surrounded by hills (that might count as mountains back east) and mountains. Basins (like Morongo area) have better luck. I figure that the ping in Julian might well have happened while JRF was still on the highway (which passes on a flat from Salton Sea most of the way up to Julian and the Julian mast is designed to transmit signals from that region (Julian itself has poor service on its western side, IMO).



Oh, absolutely. SBCSO is one of the most stretched LE systems in California, perhaps one of the thinnest forces west of the Rockies! I've mentioned before that locals have taken out billboards to criticism them. There are many more missing people in SBC than are listed here on websleuths. I don't know the total, but California alone has 20,000 missing persons, approximately.

Even if LE believe that FJ was murdered, if they also believe it was JRF who did it, there's not much urgency compared to finding missing kids, teens, impaired elderly who are thought to be in a city - and of course, finding murderers and violent criminals who have committed crimes and not been brought to justice.

At the same time, I read here on WS (don't recall the source) that a search is being organized near Harper Flat.

The counties are both "highly populated" and incredibly empty. IOW, 95% of residents live in one of the county's big cities. Ocotillo Wells (the "town" closest to where JRF was found) has 129 people (they think). Julian has a whopping 1318. Electricty can be intermittent in many places (as it is in Morongo Valley; population 3166). That's a very small town - a village, really.

2.1 MILLION people live in SBCSO. Only 3000 or so of them live in Morongo Valley. And JRF lived just outside of Morongo Valley proper (although I'm guessing that the mobile home park might be counted as part of MV's population, don't know).

In short, the areas where JRF was taking JF were sparsely populated, with mostly locals on the roads.

That last trip through JT was on a well traveled road - but it's so strange that he didn't take her to (or she didn't take pictures of) the delightful Cholla cactus garden (also home to some of the most amazing Joshua Trees, nearby) OR to Jumbo Rocks. Or the page sights on Drive Park. Amazing pictures to be had. They apparently did not go near the southern part of the park or visit any of the amazing exhibits the park has set up.

This page about Great Palm Springs has one of the most icononic of these stops as its banner and many other classic pictures and tips about the best parts of the park.

If anyone has gone carefully over JF's pictures and can clue us in as to whether she got to see any of these major sites, please post!

IMO.

Are we able to see any of the photos FJ took other than the ones she sent to family?

My impression is that we would need access to her phone and I don't think LE is either capable, or in the mood to disclose the contents of her photo library from a Chinese phone.

 

[nao]

Moo. .trucks are expensive and getting stuck and /or damaging auto is not fun, JRF was not a rich man, so I expect he knew what his Tacoma was capable of. But with my first truck I broke the brake lines and the tranny got stuck in drive,, so I had to bush it...aka drive head on into something to get it to stop. I was going too fast..but hit a rock the wrong way even slowly, things can go bad very quick....moo

 

[Herat]

Moo. .trucks are expensive and getting stuck and /or damaging auto is not fun, JRF was not a rich man, so I expect he knew what his Tacoma was capable of. But with my first truck I broke the brake lines and the tranny got stuck in drive,, so I had to bush it...aka drive head on into something to get it to stop. I was going too fast..but hit a rock the wrong way even slowly, things can go bad very quick....moo

Yes, my impression of his truck from photos is that it is pretty much stock, and is in very clean shape. No obvious bumper dents or scrapes, no apparent "desert pinstriping" and is kept as his daily driver.

I would think he would be very adverse to really getting into difficult sand and rock conditions or do any rock-crawling at all with that long wheelbase.

 

[10ofRods]

Are we able to see any of the photos FJ took other than the ones she sent to family?

My impression is that we would need access to her phone and I don't think LE is either capable, or in the mood to disclose the contents of her photo library from a Chinese phone.

Well, I would have thought that she'd send each day's best and most scenic photos. Indeed, that's my assumption. I doubt she kept really great pictures of amazing scenery away from them.

Of course, we just don't know.

IMO.

 

[slowpoke]

Are we able to see any of the photos FJ took other than the ones she sent to family?

My impression is that we would need access to her phone and I don't think LE is either capable, or in the mood to disclose the contents of her photo library from a Chinese phone.

I think that’s where it stands.

As far as we know, her phone has not been recovered. And, even if they did, it feels unlikely the SBCSO would disclose her photos.

Also, unless our VI himself shares the photos here that Fang sent to her family/friends, we can’t link or display them here on the main thread, except for the ones that appeared in the media.

 

[Interested_But_Confused]

Last night I was reviewing a lot of older posts and the more current info on the geography of the Harper Flat area in relationship to the vehicle and his remains. Harper Flat is roughly rectangular, about 2.5 x 1.5 miles and not flat, but with a downslope from the southwest towards the northeast, where the elevation of the south end of Harper Canyon is at about 2300 ft elevation.

There are three main ways to enter Harper Flat, and the Harper Canyon trail, where his remains were found, is not one of them.

They are:
1. Pinyon Wash Road - going south from Highway 78. However, this gravel, rock and sand road does not appear to be driveable by a conventional 4wd vehicle because of a series of rocks just at at the south end, precisely where the blue dot is on that great map that @LucyOso found. The hiking trail reports note that vehicles park just north of those rocks and hike into the flat area.

2. Pinyon Mountain Road - this is accessible from the west on S2 road near Shelter Valley or from Highway 78 a bit farther north. This is the road with The Squeeze, and Heart Attack Hill, which are sections only for modified Jeep or other jacked-up vehicles such as serious off-roader groups. There are some side dirt roads that appear to bypass these areas so that it appears, to me, to be passable with care to the Harper Flat area with high-clearance 4WD and desert driving experience. However, there is a barbed wire fence with a walking passage at the end of Pinyon Mountain Wash where the Orange dot is on the map. This fence appears to be placed to prevent vehicles from entering Pinyon Mountain Wash, but it would also prevent vehicle driving east from entering Harper Flat.

3. Fish Creek Wash Road - this is a very long drive in sandy wash beds that starts off of Ocotillo Wells on Highway 78 driving south on Split Mountain Road, then to Fish Creek Wash and winds around in a long tortuous semicircle on more sandy scrub track to end up on Olla Wash and then more long sandy tracks to end up where Pinyon Mountain Road ended, on the west side of the fence. By looking at the tracks on Google, I cannot see that this route enters Harper Flat anywhere on the east side of the fence. I would guess this was 40 miles of unpaved, progressively more sandy and rocky wash road, the kind of remote travel where you take two spare tires, both on rims, to avoid getting completely stranded. (One flat is an inconvenience, two flats can be deadly - old desert driving motto). I also think you would have to have a map or some experience driving this route to be sure to find your way to Harper Flat area. Lots of places to go off the wrong way.

So I think the vehicle had to be on the Orange dot on the map, not the Blue one. Only if JRF was able to drive over the rocks at the end of Pinyon Wash Road (#1) could he have ended up on the east side of the fence or anywhere else nearer the entrance to Harper Canyon. Another possibility is that he did try to cross the rocks and damaged the undercarriage, or a wheel, or suspension, or even rolled the vehicle, ending up with it disabled near the Blue dot.

If they had wanted to visit Harper Canyon, they would have parked near the north end, where there are numerous cacti and the area is called Cactus Garden. This might roughly be the area where her backpack was found ( closer to the red pointer than the purple dot, my guess). If they had been looking for archeologic sites in the rocky hills north of Harper Flat, they could have left the vehicle beside Pinyon Wash Road and walked east. If there was flooding there after his death, I think a large flood there would have pushed the vehicle north, not south into the Harper Flat area.
So right now I think they took either the 2nd or 3rd option and suffered severe enough vehicle damage that they had to hike out and the closest appeared to be Harper Canyon to Highway 78. But that's just today's thoughts.

https://www.websleuths.com/forums/attachments/harper-canyon-jpg.456582/

I placed the "car found?" on the blue dot at Pinyon Wash based on these two posts by @10ofRods:

Found Deceased - CA - Fang Jin, 47, flew to LA from China, train to Palm Springs, Morongo Basin, 21 Jul 2023, w/ John Root Fitzpatrick, 55, (fnd dec.), 30 Jul ‘23 #3

These guys hiked the area and also have downloadable KML tracks: https://www.ihikesandiego.com/harper-cabin-and-dams-anza-borrego/Tho Those photos are incredibly helpful in seeing the type of terrain. It's not difficult to imagine a flash flood in the tight canyon and the amount of trauma a...

www.websleuths.com

Found Deceased - CA - Fang Jin, 47, flew to LA from China, train to Palm Springs, Morongo Basin, 21 Jul 2023, w/ John Root Fitzpatrick, 55, (fnd dec.), 30 Jul ‘23 #3

These guys hiked the area and also have downloadable KML tracks: https://www.ihikesandiego.com/harper-cabin-and-dams-anza-borrego/Tho Those photos are incredibly helpful in seeing the type of terrain. It's not difficult to imagine a flash flood in the tight canyon and the amount of trauma a...

www.websleuths.com

Apparently people who saw/found the truck have spoken about it on Facebook and indicate the car was somewhere on Pinyon Wash Road/Pinyon Wash, though I haven't seen the comments myself.

If 10ofrods is permitted by the rules to post the link to the Facebook post(s) in question (not directly to the individual comments), that would be wonderful.

 

[slowpoke]

I placed the "car found?" on the blue dot at Pinyon Wash based on these two posts by @10ofRods:

Found Deceased - CA - Fang Jin, 47, flew to LA from China, train to Palm Springs, Morongo Basin, 21 Jul 2023, w/ John Root Fitzpatrick, 55, (fnd dec.), 30 Jul ‘23 #3

These guys hiked the area and also have downloadable KML tracks: https://www.ihikesandiego.com/harper-cabin-and-dams-anza-borrego/Tho Those photos are incredibly helpful in seeing the type of terrain. It's not difficult to imagine a flash flood in the tight canyon and the amount of trauma a...

www.websleuths.com

Found Deceased - CA - Fang Jin, 47, flew to LA from China, train to Palm Springs, Morongo Basin, 21 Jul 2023, w/ John Root Fitzpatrick, 55, (fnd dec.), 30 Jul ‘23 #3

These guys hiked the area and also have downloadable KML tracks: https://www.ihikesandiego.com/harper-cabin-and-dams-anza-borrego/Tho Those photos are incredibly helpful in seeing the type of terrain. It's not difficult to imagine a flash flood in the tight canyon and the amount of trauma a...

www.websleuths.com

Apparently people who saw/found the truck have spoken about it on Facebook and indicate the car was somewhere on Pinyon Wash Road/Pinyon Wash, though I haven't seen the comments myself.

If 10ofrods is permitted by the rules to post the link to the Facebook post(s) in question (not directly to the individual comments), that would be wonderful.

I don’t know of Facebook posts, but our VI has said “his truck was on the other end of Harper Canyon, nearby Pinion Wash....”
link

 

[Herat]

I placed the "car found?" on the blue dot at Pinyon Wash based on these two posts by @10ofRods:

Found Deceased - CA - Fang Jin, 47, flew to LA from China, train to Palm Springs, Morongo Basin, 21 Jul 2023, w/ John Root Fitzpatrick, 55, (fnd dec.), 30 Jul ‘23 #3

These guys hiked the area and also have downloadable KML tracks: https://www.ihikesandiego.com/harper-cabin-and-dams-anza-borrego/Tho Those photos are incredibly helpful in seeing the type of terrain. It's not difficult to imagine a flash flood in the tight canyon and the amount of trauma a...

www.websleuths.com

Found Deceased - CA - Fang Jin, 47, flew to LA from China, train to Palm Springs, Morongo Basin, 21 Jul 2023, w/ John Root Fitzpatrick, 55, (fnd dec.), 30 Jul ‘23 #3

These guys hiked the area and also have downloadable KML tracks: https://www.ihikesandiego.com/harper-cabin-and-dams-anza-borrego/Tho Those photos are incredibly helpful in seeing the type of terrain. It's not difficult to imagine a flash flood in the tight canyon and the amount of trauma a...

www.websleuths.com

Apparently people who saw/found the truck have spoken about it on Facebook and indicate the car was somewhere on Pinyon Wash Road/Pinyon Wash, though I haven't seen the comments myself.

If 10ofrods is permitted by the rules to post the link to the Facebook post(s) in question (not directly to the individual comments), that would be wonderful.

I understand your logic.

I seem to recall a comment numerous pages back that LE said the vehicle was found "near the fence", which is where the Orange dot is, and there are two routes to drive a vehicle to that point.

If their intent was to hike Harper Canyon or the adjacent mountains to the west, I would think they would have parked it at the north end of Harper Canyon and had a much easier hike than having to traverse about 3 miles of desert scree and gravel to get there from Pinyon Wash.

They could also have wanted to explore the mountains just east of Pinyon Wash and hence, the vehicle left there. But this is going to be a trail-less scramble over rugged mountains without apparent known destinations.

I think that considering her clothing and footwear, lack of solid backcountry outdoor ability and the stock look of the vehicle, an easy drive through scenic Fish Creek Wash to see the known sights seems more realistic, right now.

But that's only what I've been thinking in the last several days. All other opinions and considerations welcome.

 

[Interested_But_Confused]

Perhaps someone already stated this, but to me it is noteworthy that DH reported they were going to A-B Park, and that is, indeed, where the truck and JRF were found. That, to me, is unexpected when contemplating foul play. My impression is, if a cover-up is involved, an attempt to make people disappear, more often that involves taking them where they are not expected to be.

Yes, you can say, well, that's what the criminal intends, to make it appear misadventure, but I don't recall many cases like that. It is hard to control the circumstances, environment, etc, to have it turn out as mysteriously as it has, IMO.

But, time will tell.

JMO

Snipped and BBM.

This is new information to me. If DH did indeed know that JF and JRF were going to A-B Park before JRF's car and remains were found, that seems to be vitally important for so many reasons. Not least the reasons you suggest.

If LE knew JF and JRF were going there, that may be why they checked cell towers in the surrounding area and found the ping near Julian. They may not have gotten that information from JRF's phone records.

DH knowing where they were going only seems to lend itself to a few likely possibilities:

1. The disappearance of JF and JRF was a tragic accident on a planned trip to A-B Park;
2. Something happened to JF before the planned trip and JRF took the trip anyway;
3. DH knew FAR more about where JRF's truck would be found than he should have.

If DH was telling the truth about last having contact with JRF on the 21st, and at this point I have no personal reason to doubt him, then IMO the camping trip JF was talking about in her own last message on the 21st was almost certainly that very same planned trip to A-B.

 

[Herat]

Snipped and BBM.

This is new information to me. If DH did indeed know that JF and JRF were going to A-B Park before JRF's car and remains were found, that seems to be vitally important for so many reasons. Not least the reasons you suggest.

If LE knew JF and JRF were going there, that may be why they checked cell towers in the surrounding area and found the ping near Julian. They may not have gotten that information from JRF's phone records.

DH knowing where they were going only seems to lend itself to a few likely possibilities:

1. The disappearance of JF and JRF was a tragic accident on a planned trip to A-B Park;
2. Something happened to JF before the planned trip and JRF took the trip anyway;
3. DH knew FAR more about where JRF's truck would be found than he should have.

If DH was telling the truth about last having contact with JRF on the 21st, and at this point I have no personal reason to doubt him, then IMO the camping trip JF was talking about in her own last message on the 21st was almost certainly that very same planned trip to A-B.

I vote for option #1.

Pinion Wash Road is the most commonly reported route to access the Pinyon Mountain Wash hikes to Harper Cabin and the two dams, by parking at the impassable rocks, and hiking south to pass through the gate at the fence.

But Harper Canyon is not one of the more popular hiking trails and is more easily accessed from the north, not Pinyon Wash, according to AllTrails.

According to the terrain lines, the elevation of general area of the Blue dot on the map is about 2000 ft and the elevation of the turn-off from Highway 78 is about 1200 ft, so significant flooding should have move the vehicle north along Pinyon Wash Road and not south into Harper Flat.

Also, the south entrance of Harper Canyon, at Harper Flat is about 2200 ft elevation. The exit of Harper Canyon on the north is about 1000 ft elevation. So a flash flood would go from Harper Flat towards the north, to the alluvial fan where Cactus Garden and Old Kane Spring Road is. I think this means his remains could have originated from anywhere south in Harper Canyon, the flanks of the adjacent mountains, or even Harper Flat. But not a place where you could drive to.

Just something else to ponder.

 

[Interested_But_Confused]

I vote for option #1.

Pinion Wash Road is the most commonly reported route to access the Pinyon Mountain Wash hikes to Harper Cabin and the two dams, by parking at the impassable rocks, and hiking south to pass through the gate at the fence.

But Harper Canyon is not one of the more popular hiking trails and is more easily accessed from the north, not Pinyon Wash, according to AllTrails.

According to the terrain lines, the elevation of general area of the Blue dot on the map is about 2000 ft and the elevation of the turn-off from Highway 78 is about 1200 ft, so significant flooding should have move the vehicle north along Pinyon Wash Road and not south into Harper Flat.

Just something else to ponder.

This is only my personal theory, but I'm not at all convinced JF and JRF were actually hiking Harper Canyon.

JRF's remains were found there, and JF's backpack may have been found in the vicinity. But given the flooding from Storm Hilary in the middle of August I wonder if those items weren't washed down from somewhere higher up on Harper Flat or the ridges above the Flat.

Harper Canyon might be a false lead in terms of what actually happened to JF and JRF--although it's still where I'd start looking for JF.

 

[Herat]

This is only my personal theory, but I'm not at all convinced JF and JRF were actually hiking Harper Canyon.

JRF's remains were found there, and JF's backpack may have been found in the vicinity. But given the flooding from Storm Hilary in the middle of August I wonder if those items weren't washed down from somewhere higher up on Harper Flat or the ridges above the Flat.

Harper Canyon might be a false lead in terms of what actually happened to JF and JRF--although it's still where I'd start looking for JF.

So I wonder if their remains could have been washed all the way from the opposite side of Harper Flat, as in from the area where the fence was?

 

[Interested_But_Confused]

So I wonder if their remains could have been washed all the way from the opposite side of Harper Flat, as in from the area where the fence was?

I hope it's OK to post this video since it's just of the flooding in Anza-Borrego during Hilary on August 20:

Would that carry a truck/remains/backpack a long distance? Difficult to say.

 

[Interested_But_Confused]

Going back to the truck being found without water containers etc.

If the truck had been tossed around by flood water, it's possible the truck could have had windows broken, doors torn off, or other such severe damage. It was described as "wrecked" but that could be both an understatement or an overstatement.

I have no trouble believing items such as water containers could have been washed out of the truck by the flooding--and would you identify them as belonging to JF or JRF if you found them lying in the desert at a later date?

 

[ch_13]

The thing is, in this country, we go by the standard of INNOCENT until proven guilty. A smell is subjective and could have many explanations. Nothing is ruled out until Law Enforcement say it is, but that doesn't mean is it correct to make those accusations.

I can't imagine what this man's family must be experiencing, when for the past months, they had no idea where he was and when they googled his name, one of the first thing that shows is this thread full of unsubstantiated accusations, when he is as much as VICTIM as Jin Fang. He should be given the same respect until he is named a suspect or charges are brought.

With all due respect, I didn't make an accusation. I think I was very clear that I have no idea what happened to JRF or FJ. I was simply responding to a claim that there was "no evidence in this case that points to anything other than an accident." While the odor could mean many things—as I mentioned in my own post—it is still important evidence and could be indicative of foul play. Indeed it was one of the primary reasons a search warrant was issued by a judge in this case.

I think if we're going to sleuth this case, it makes no sense to ignore certain facts because they may be inconvenient. To gloss over evidence because it may lead to unfortunate conclusions will not help us to find FJ or to understand what happened to her and JRF this summer.

 

[Interested_But_Confused]

I'm trying to think of an explanation for why JF wouldn't answer her phone if she did in fact have a signal and the phone was ringing. Possibly the phone was set to vibrate and she didn't notice it ringing, but that would only explain it for a few hours.

Is it possible that she and JRF made a conscious decision to "get away from it all" and go out into the desert without using their phones? I'd expect someone to give their family and friends some warning before doing that ("I'm going to the desert for a few days and won't be answering calls") but maybe not.

 

[Herat]

I'm trying to think of an explanation for why JF wouldn't answer her phone if she did in fact have a signal and the phone was ringing. Possibly the phone was set to vibrate and she didn't notice it ringing, but that would only explain it for a few hours.

Is it possible that she and JRF made a conscious decision to "get away from it all" and go out into the desert without using their phones? I'd expect someone to give their family and friends some warning before doing that ("I'm going to the desert for a few days and won't be answering calls") but maybe not.

I think Fang is a very sensible and intelligent woman, with children. I don't think she would go off without her phone.

 

[Interested_But_Confused]

I think Fang is a very sensible and intelligent woman, with children. I don't think she would go off without her phone.

I didn't mean JF didn't take her phone with her; only that she may have chosen not to answer it or not noticed it ringing. We can reasonably assume JRF had his phone with him, but aside from one ping on the 24th it's not clear he ever used it.

 

[Herat]

I didn't mean JF didn't take her phone with her; only that she may have chosen not to answer it or not noticed it ringing. We can reasonably assume JRF had his phone with him, but aside from one ping on the 24th it's not clear he ever used it.

I think she was planning on contacting her daughters on a fairly regular schedule, even if it was just driving along a road with stores and street lights in the dark. I don't think she would have gone more than 2 days without contact with them, and their notice showed they were anticipating another quick photo or video.