Found Deceased CA - Fang Jin, 47, flew to LA from China, train to Palm Springs, Morongo Basin, 21 Jul 2023, w/ John Root Fitzpatrick, 55, (fnd dec.), 30 Jul ‘23 #3

[Interested_But_Confused]

I think she was planning on contacting her daughters on a fairly regular schedule, even if it was just driving along a road with stores and street lights in the dark. I don't think she would have gone more than 2 days without contact with them, and their notice showed they were anticipating another quick photo or video.

She probably didn't intend to be gone for more than a day or two. If something happened late on the 22nd or on the 23rd, that was 24-48 hours after her last contact. I believe someone (our VI?) has said JF did go 30 hours without contact on a previous occasion, so it's perhaps not totally out-of-character.

 

[Interested_But_Confused]

I probably should know this, but can somebody please remind me what the source was for the image of JRF's truck in Thermal on the 22nd? If there's any chance the date was wrong, or that it wasn't JRF's truck, that could change the possible timeline considerably.

 

[slowpoke]

I probably should know this, but can somebody please remind me what the source was for the image of JRF's truck in Thermal on the 22nd? If there's any chance the date was wrong, or that it wasn't JRF's truck, that could change the possible timeline considerably.

The source ofthe photo is from the SBCSD’s own missing poster.

The date and time is not confirmed to be July 22 in Thermal, but our VI says probably.

 

[10ofRods]

Going back to the truck being found without water containers etc.

If the truck had been tossed around by flood water, it's possible the truck could have had windows broken, doors torn off, or other such severe damage. It was described as "wrecked" but that could be both an understatement or an overstatement.

I have no trouble believing items such as water containers could have been washed out of the truck by the flooding--and would you identify them as belonging to JF or JRF if you found them lying in the desert at a later date?

I find it unlikely that both the people reporting this incident AND the park rangers could not tell the difference. I do NOT think there was enough water flowing down during the rain events of August that the truck was turned over and over (it was still up on Harper Flat, just at the juncture where the road led to the actual flat - and I don't have the energy to go into the reasons why that would be so, at least not tonight.

There are so many reasons why I think LE knows what to release and that their information is good - I can't even go into them.

Please provide a link where the trunk is said to be "wrecked." THat's not at all what I've read or understood.

The water containers would still exist - or do you think that a flash flood can destroy water containers? And that a flash flood can do more than move a truck? Even if the windows were totally down (!) the kind of water containers that normal people take to the desert would NOT go out through the windows and would be more visible than bones in the wash.

It's just not something that I can entertain as a fact supported by the laws of physics. IMO.


I have EXTREME difficult believing that bones would survive (sitting fairly nicely on a small rock flow) and canisters of water would not. We're not even talking about 2.5 gallon containers (that's really not enough to go up there). But even if we were, they should be found in the gullies. Promptly (maybe today or tomorrow, given how investigations might work). But plastic is forever. Durable as bone. Bone should be higher up in the wash, of course.

If they were washed out of the truck and the truck is at the fence where I think it was - they would be visible to LE. LE do not just glance around quickly and leave - they spend a lot of time hiking and poking around.

IME and IMO.

 

[10ofRods]

<modsnip: Quoted post was removed>

Honestly, having done lots of experiments with human smell, it's not subjective. It's true that some people have a better sense of smell than another.

But decomp is decomp. And, well, I believe I can smell human decomp readily (but might confuse it in a closed space with other large animal decomp).

Frankly, unless a larger animal (dog?) died inside that mobile home, it seems unlikely (to me) that a rat death could produce decomp that's smellable from outside the doorway. But I've smelled decomp outside doorway when I took anatomy and dealt with (preserved) cadavers. Could still smell it. Forcefully. Every day and every minute of that class (and on my person and my clothes once I went home and tried to clean up).

TMI?

IMO

 

[Interested_But_Confused]

The source ofthe photo is from the SBCSD’s own missing poster.

The date and time is not confirmed to be July 22 in Thermal, but our VI says probably.

Fantastic, thank you!

If it was early on the 22nd it might be that JF and JRF were travelling through Thermal on the way to Anza-Borrego, and that whatever happened near Harper Flat did happen on the 22nd.

In which case something may have happened within as little as 12-18 hours of JF's last contact.

 

[Interested_But_Confused]

I find it unlikely that both the people reporting this incident AND the park rangers could not tell the difference. I do NOT think there was enough water flowing down during the rain events of August that the truck was turned over and over (it was still up on Harper Flat, just at the juncture where the road led to the actual flat - and I don't have the energy to go into the reasons why that would be so, at least not tonight.

There are so many reasons why I think LE knows what to release and that their information is good - I can't even go into them.

Please provide a link where the trunk is said to be "wrecked." THat's not at all what I've read or understood.

The water containers would still exist - or do you think that a flash flood can destroy water containers? And that a flash flood can do more than move a truck? Even if the windows were totally down (!) the kind of water containers that normal people take to the desert would NOT go out through the windows and would be more visible than bones in the wash.

It's just not something that I can entertain as a fact supported by the laws of physics. IMO.


I have EXTREME difficult believing that bones would survive (sitting fairly nicely on a small rock flow) and canisters of water would not. We're not even talking about 2.5 gallon containers (that's really not enough to go up there). But even if we were, they should be found in the gullies. Promptly (maybe today or tomorrow, given how investigations might work). But plastic is forever. Durable as bone. Bone should be higher up in the wash, of course.

If they were washed out of the truck and the truck is at the fence where I think it was - they would be visible to LE. LE do not just glance around quickly and leave - they spend a lot of time hiking and poking around.

IME and IMO.

Found Deceased - CA - Fang Jin, 47, flew to LA from China, train to Palm Springs, Morongo Basin, 21 Jul 2023, w/ John Root Fitzpatrick, 55, (fnd dec.), 30 Jul ‘23 #2

Search warrant mentioned SD card from Ring Cam. As someone who owns Ring Cams, the photos of JF cleaning look like they were taken from a Ring Cam. Regarding statement in Search Warrant "Deputies were in the Roadrunner Mobile Home Park and spoke to Fitzpatrick, who had an unknown Asian female...

www.websleuths.com

An officer described the car as "pretty wrecked."

I wasn't at all suggesting water containers would be destroyed. As I mentioned at the end of the post you quoted, if the containers had been washed away, would anyone recognise them as having belonged to JF or JRF if they were later found somewhere in the desert? They probably could have been discarded by anyone.

 

[nao]

Moo...rats can and do live in the walls. Makes your place smell like death for a week or two, a good reason not to use poison. There was power issues going on too, so it is possible stuff had rotted in fridge.....moo

 

[Interested_But_Confused]

I know the assumption has been that when JF told her family she was preparing to go camping late on the 21st, she was talking about something planned for the next day. But what if she wasn't?

If it's true that DH knew JF and JRF were going to Anza-Borrego Park and it was a planned trip, what if they decided to set off on the evening of the 21st and break up the drive by camping at Thermal? If they stayed at Thermal on the 21st/22nd and then drove the rest of the way to Anza-Borrego on the 22nd, it could explain a lot.

The trip to Anza-Borrego may have been intended as just a day-trip, with minimal supplies and JRF assuming his SEAL training would be enough to keep them safe. But depending on precisely what happened, both JF and JRF may have been incapacitated by the time the scorching midday sun was high in the sky on the 22nd.

It still leaves some very important questions unanswered, but it would answer quite a few.

There have been questions about why DH knows so much. Other than being a close military friend, perhaps he's also JRF's addiction/treatment sponsor?

 

[Bogbacal2]

Honestly, having done lots of experiments with human smell, it's not subjective. It's true that some people have a better sense of smell than another.

But decomp is decomp. And, well, I believe I can smell human decomp readily (but might confuse it in a closed space with other large animal decomp).

Frankly, unless a larger animal (dog?) died inside that mobile home, it seems unlikely (to me) that a rat death could produce decomp that's smellable from outside the doorway. But I've smelled decomp outside doorway when I took anatomy and dealt with (preserved) cadavers. Could still smell it. Forcefully. Every day and every minute of that class (and on my person and my clothes once I went home and tried to clean up).

TMI?

IMO

Agree 100%. The smell of human decomposition never goes away in my mind. I’m sure some have heard the saying” smells like a rat died in here” -unfortunately I have been around dead decomposing animals in the sweltering heat, and a decomp body inside and outside of homes (some no AC, middle of summer). Upon opening the door, we knew right away-I promise you the smell hits you like a ton of bricks. Those of you who have encountered human decomposition, can you ID that odor right away? IMO, and as 10 stated, something you don’t forget is the distinct smell of human decomp, IMOO.

 

[Ou41aw]

WOW. This is great information.

Yes, I can see how this would be a great trip. Looks like they wouldn't have been able to do Sandstone Canyon in those narrow areas.

Did you even make it to Harper Flat? Can you comment on whether it's possible to enter Harper Flat on the east side of the fence? Would you have driven that route all the way to Harper Flat as a single vehicle, in July?

Do you think they might have left a camp on the east side of Fish Creek Wash, as you describe, as a base for a day trip into this area? Would that have been a safe place to leave stuff?

Thanks so much for this. It makes me want to go there, in February.

I have been through Fish Creek Wash and all the way into the area near Harper Flat from the East. I have attached a Google Earth map of the route I remember. Did not ever get into the exact Harper Flat as we would always go the route away from it, but passed next to it as you can see in the map. We did it in a very off road capable Jeep back in the day. I believe a 4WD Tacoma could make it as far, if the driver was very committed and/or not very well versed in 4WD off-roading. Many people in California drive 4WD vehicles and hardly ever use them for 4WD. They do not realize what they can and can't do in a 4WD truck until they are in over their head. Many people have to be helped out of areas around those parts because they push their vehicles farther than it can handle. I think they drove into Anzo Borrego Park through Fish Creek Wash and went further than the Tacoma could handle and may have become stuck. Either both or just JRF tried to hike out through Harper Canyon from Harper Flat back toward HWY 78 and Ocotillo Wells for help, and did not make it. I do not think they set up a camp, as most would not leave their belongings out in the desert alone. I think a very similar thing happened to Mickey Guidry back in 2009 when he disappeared in this exact area. His vehicle which was even less capable than the Tacoma and made it that far into that area and became too damaged to drive any further and became stuck. He tried to hike back out from Harper Flat through Harper Canyon and was never found, but his clothing and shoes were found by hikers 13 years later.

Google Earth

earth.google.com

 

[tvscum]

I have been through Fish Creek Wash and all the way into the area near Harper Flat from the East. I have attached a Google Earth map of the route I remember. Did not ever get into the exact Harper Flat as we would always go the route away from it, but passed next to it as you can see in the map. We did it in a very off road capable Jeep back in the day. I believe a 4WD Tacoma could make it as far, if the driver was very committed and/or not very well versed in 4WD off-roading. Many people in California drive 4WD vehicles and hardly ever use them for 4WD. They do not realize what they can and can't do in a 4WD truck until they are in over their head. Many people have to be helped out of areas around those parts because they push their vehicles farther than it can handle. I think they drove into Anzo Borrego Park through Fish Creek Wash and went further than the Tacoma could handle and may have become stuck. Either both or just JRF tried to hike out through Harper Canyon from Harper Flat back toward HWY 78 and Ocotillo Wells for help, and did not make it. I do not think they set up a camp, as most would not leave their belongings out in the desert alone. I think a very similar thing happened to Mickey Guidry back in 2009 when he disappeared in this exact area. His vehicle which was even less capable than the Tacoma and made it that far into that area and became too damaged to drive any further and became stuck. He tried to hike back out from Harper Flat through Harper Canyon and was never found, but his clothing and shoes were found by hikers 13 years later.

Nice map! I think that's about 20 miles in each direction IIRC. @Ou41aw since you have been up there, can you please describe the terrain on Hapaha Flat (south of Harper Flat) and the road conditions driving through Hapaha Flat?

 

[Ou41aw]

Nice map! I think that's about 20 miles in each direction IIRC. @Ou41aw since you have been up there, can you please describe the terrain on Hapaha Flat (south of Harper Flat) and the road conditions driving through Hapaha Flat?

The route I showed above is through Hapaha Flat. It is honestly not that tough of a trail/area. I really believe someone in a 4WD Tacoma committed to get through there could do it. It has some deep rutted sand areas through there, but nothing too crazy for the most part. Pretty flat throughout with no crazy canyons or switchbacks in that area.

 

[tvscum]

@Ou41aw Is Hapaha Flats the same as Hapaha Flats Road in this video?

 

[megs1477]

Honestly, having done lots of experiments with human smell, it's not subjective. It's true that some people have a better sense of smell than another.

But decomp is decomp. And, well, I believe I can smell human decomp readily (but might confuse it in a closed space with other large animal decomp).

Frankly, unless a larger animal (dog?) died inside that mobile home, it seems unlikely (to me) that a rat death could produce decomp that's smellable from outside the doorway. But I've smelled decomp outside doorway when I took anatomy and dealt with (preserved) cadavers. Could still smell it. Forcefully. Every day and every minute of that class (and on my person and my clothes once I went home and tried to clean up).

TMI?

IMO

Do you have evidence the officer writing the warrant has ever smelled decomp before and is not confusing it with the musty smell of an old trailer or that of a dead rodent?

 

[Ou41aw]

The route I showed above is through Hapaha Flat. It is honestly not that tough of a trail/area I really believe someone in a 4WD Tacoma committed to get through there could do it.

@Ou41aw Is Hapaha Flats the same as Hapaha Flats Road in this video?

Yes, that is what it looks like. Seems a little rougher than I remember, but a 4WD Tacoma still could make it through there IMO

 

[Interested_But_Confused]

Do you have evidence the officer writing the warrant has ever smelled decomp before and is not confusing it with the musty smell of an old trailer or that of a dead rodent?

I think this is the real crux of the issue. It was an officer who went to conduct a welfare check who initially reported the smell of decomposition; I'm not sure if the homicide detectives were involved until after that was reported.

Whilst a random officer would probably recognise "decomposition," it's impossible to say if they had the experience necessary to tell one kind from another. Nor is it possible to know how strong the odor was without smelling it ourselves.

Many aspects of this case *could* point to foul play, but at this point everything I've seen is ambiguous and could just as easily be perfectly innocent.

 

[Interested_But_Confused]

Probably a silly question, but how common is it for LE to flat out lie rather than say something like "No Comment"?

I ask because of this article from Thursday August 10:

Authorities confirm link in two missing person cases in Morongo Basin - KESQ

Two missing person cases out of the Morongo Basin area are linked, authorities confirmed to News Channel 3 on Thursday.

kesq.com

"On Wednesday, the Sheriff's Dept. told News Channel 3 this is not a criminal investigation at this time and there are no suspects."

Wednesday would have been August 9, over a week since the search warrant was executed at JRF's trailer. I realize it would take some time for test results to come back, but presumably if they had found an obvious "smoking gun" a criminal investigation would have been opened pretty quickly.

So was nothing found? Were they awaiting test results? Or was the Sheriff's Department lying?

 

[Sarah McGregor]

Perhaps someone already stated this, but to me it is noteworthy that DH reported they were going to A-B Park, and that is, indeed, where the truck and JRF were found. That, to me, is unexpected when contemplating foul play. My impression is, if a cover-up is involved, an attempt to make people disappear, more often that involves taking them where they are not expected to be.

BBM... Where did you find this info?? I didn't know he said that. <modsnip>

 

[megs1477]

I think this is the real crux of the issue. It was an officer who went to conduct a welfare check who initially reported the smell of decomposition; I'm not sure if the homicide detectives were involved until after that was reported.

Whilst a random officer would probably recognise "decomposition," it's impossible to say if they had the experience necessary to tell one kind from another. Nor is it possible to know how strong the odor was without smelling it ourselves.

Many aspects of this case *could* point to foul play, but at this point everything I've seen is ambiguous and could just as easily be perfectly innocent.

Thank you. This is absolutely my point. Why speculate that it is foul play and muddy a persons reputation online where it is memorialized forever for his family and friends to see, until there is stronger evidence that it is?

Probably a silly question, but how common is it for LE to flat out lie rather than say something like "No Comment"?

I ask because of this article from Thursday August 10:

Authorities confirm link in two missing person cases in Morongo Basin - KESQ

Two missing person cases out of the Morongo Basin area are linked, authorities confirmed to News Channel 3 on Thursday.

kesq.com

Wednesday would have been August 9, over a week since the search warrant was executed at JRF's trailer. I realize it would take some time for test results to come back, but presumably if they had found an obvious "smoking gun" a criminal investigation would have been opened pretty quickly.

So was nothing found? Were they awaiting test results? Or was the Sheriff's Department lying?

They would say “no comment” if the investigation is ongoing. If they don’t have official confirmation of something, ie the coroner’s report. It might be important to note that I saw a bulletin on the coroners website that said reports were taking 4-6 months a while ago.

I would say look at it this way… Most missing persons cases, when they find the person, the missing person case is closed, and either the entire case is closed or a homicide investigation is open. In this situation, they have only found one of two people in the case. So we have to look at it, like we would look at any ongoing case. Investigators generally don’t release that type of information in an ongoing case.