CA - Hannah,16,Devonte,15,&Ciera Hart,12 (fnd deceased),Mendocino Cty,26 Mar 2018 #5

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What's the keyboard equivalent of having to "bite your tongue"? Lordy, some of the posts...

As a mod said, "scroll and roll."

My thoughts right now are on the cases of sidewalk chalk, bubbles, microwave popcorn and Party String I'm squirreling away for Field Day. The students at school are making ANY excuse to come to my office and just peek at their future goodies, even the "big kids," the mighty 8th graders...still such kiddos at heart. So sad that the Hart children are not here to experience this spring, to run, to laugh, to enjoy, to just live out their lives...
 
I said it wasn't racist or perverse or it wouldn't be permissable. I believe children should ideally be placed with parents most like their own race, religion or biological parents. I don't need a study to have that belief or opinion.

@ flourish - hope this explains what I meant.
Not really...
I'll just say it...
it sounded like you didn't think same sex couples should be allowed to adopt. Surely I've misunderstood?
 
I don't believe that most parents would respond this way but in this case, I do believe that being "ungrateful" could serve as an impetus. It appeared as though these parents treated their kids like things (like they owned them). Jen and Sarah may have loved the children but I doubt that they loved them so much they just couldn't live without them...

I think it was less about not wanting to lose the kids themselves and more about not wanting to lose their picture-perfect Facebook content. Pure narcissism. It was all about the loss of Jen’s image. It would be hard to stay in their little hippie festival circuit as a well-known ‘perfect family’ if the kids were removed because they were starving and beating them. They’d be losing the entire life and image they’d set up for themselves.


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Absolutely no disagreement with anything you said in this post, this included.



After speaking with several caseworkers, I think the reality is this: Because of human nature, it's easier to go through all the follow-through on a case you think is going to be easier (not risking your life or sanity) than one you think may involve dangerous places, dangerous people, etc. There are also areas where caseworkers don't have many real cases of abuse or neglect and are just waiting for something to dive into.

They rarely think of the inherent harm in their interventions, mostly focusing on "saving the children." They are focused on reunification sometimes, but not enough (hence the Kenny A lawsuit which class, ironically, my dear friend whose CP child was stolen from her, was part of as a former foster child in that system/time, but was never informed of). Massive government incentives are paid out when adopting kids out of foster care, but not when reunifications happen. The reunification meetings I've attended were an absolute joke. One guy was an absolute gem, but absolutely nothing he insisted in the meetings ever happened in reality. One judge was a gem who really focused on the true best interest of the child (not just childless social workers' misconceptions of what that entailed) , but he died mysteriously a few weeks later.

The ones who do a glorious job are overwhelmed with a huge workload made worse by trivial and false reports, so the children who really need help rarely get it.
There are definitely true horror stories about CPS and I've had a variety of experiences with them, in several roles.... mother of victim, stepmom fighting for custody (with Dad), teacher, etc. They aren't benign, no.

I just don't want to discourage people from reporting. But yes, use sense.
 
What's the keyboard equivalent of having to "bite your tongue"? Lordy, some of the posts...

As a mod said, "scroll and roll."

My thoughts right now are on the cases of sidewalk chalk, bubbles, microwave popcorn and Party String I'm squirreling away for Field Day. The students at school are making ANY excuse to come to my office and just peek at their future goodies, even the "big kids," the mighty 8th graders...still such kiddos at heart. So sad that the Hart children are not here to experience this spring, to run, to laugh, to enjoy, to just live out their lives...
Sitting on your hands
 
What kind of search did they do of the house? Did they take dogs? Do any kind of search for blood?

I can't imagine anyone would be hiding these two somewhere, but it would be wonderful if they are still alive!
 
I said it wasn't racist or perverse or it wouldn't be permissable. I believe children should ideally be placed with parents most like their own race, religion or biological parents. I don't need a study to have that belief or opinion.

@ flourish - hope this explains what I meant.

Why does race matter kids don’t see color? On my culdesac we have families that are black, white, Hispanics, and Asians no one cares or pays any attention to the color of skin we all have the same body parts. We all get along great. Who cares as long as they are good parents. I can understand trying to place the kids with biological family if they go by the rules and are a good fit.
 
I said it wasn't racist or perverse or it wouldn't be permissable. I believe children should ideally be placed with parents most like their own race, religion or biological parents. I don't need a study to have that belief or opinion.

@ flourish - hope this explains what I meant.

Sorry my "racist and perverse" quote was from the post you quoted. Being an adoptive parent for over thirteen years I know many in the adoption world. I know two black families who have adopted white children, I know gay families and straight ones and black ones with black kiddos and white ones with white kiddos...adoption is very diverse, it is the nature of adoption, you won't match a biological family even if you looked like them. Dealing with loss in adoption is part of being an adoptive parent....and in foster care a child over the age of 12 gets to decide (at least in CA) if they want to be adopted by the family who wants to adopt them or not. Most parents do a lot to help their children through the many losses and traumas that are inherent in adoption.
 
There are definitely true horror stories about CPS and I've had a variety of experiences with them, in several roles.... mother of victim, stepmom fighting for custody (with Dad), teacher, etc. They aren't benign, no.

I just don't want to discourage people from reporting. But yes, use sense.

Agree. I don't want to discourage people from reporting real concerns about real harms. And I don't want to encourage people to report anything and everything, including paranoia or trivial concerns (like going barefoot in summer). I want to encourage thoughtfulness, reflection, and when the risk of not acting truly appears to outweigh the real risk of acting, action.
 
I think a word should be said about what that level of doubt is. I personally have many friends who have had CPS called on them for a range of "infractions," and not one of them was a child abuser. I know that because I know how the cases turned out, the evidence CPS submitted, what the judges ruled, etc. And I also know that every one of those children was subjected to many hours of invasive interviews that were inherently invasive, inappropriate, and even abusive in themselves, asking questions like, "Does your Daddy put his penis in your mouth?" EVERY CPS intervention does harm to a child, to parents, and to a family, and in every case the caller must ask, "What are the chances that the harm I'm calling about is more harmful than the likely CPS intervention?"

Keep in mind when deciding whether to call, or to promote a National Child Abuse Registry, that the parents of the accused will have no Constitutional rights preserved. There will usually be no presumption of innocence, no right to a speedy trial by a jury of their peers, no due process, no right to face their accusers, no right to avoid self-incrimination. Even if a judge finds the case should be closed, they will likely have to take parenting classes and will have a "record" with CPS that will be held against them if any other kind person in the future calls "just to be safe," even if no charges are ever brought against them. Keep in mind that unjust taking of children happens *daily* and happens disproportionately to families of color and disadvantaged families. Keep in mind that for these families, being able to escape an unjust CPS worker by going to another county or state can be life-saving.

In the Hart case, there's no question in my mind that the neighbors should have called. Certainly Texas, for as long as it continuing paying the Hart women, should have kept tabs on the medical and legal interactions with the children. But how about these cases, involving people I personally know?

- Young single poor black mother had breastfeeding newborn, 3yo with CP, and several other children removed dramatically & traumatically off the school bus without even a hug good-bye on Halloween after the mother took the 3yo to the ER for feeding problems that her doctors already knew she had. Forced to sign TPR on 3yo to get the other kids back, 3yo adopted out to Russian couple, never saw her 3yo again.

- Kids playing in front yard barefoot in the summer. Yes, CPS was really called over this. Yes, they really came out and did invasive interviews, trying to search the house and look into every nook & cranny of their lives to find some kind of abuse somewhere.

- Child accidentally hurts himself; CPS spends 8 hours interrogating children, trying to convince them to give up some dirt on sexual and physical abuse by their parents.

- Parents leave restaurant in two cars and accidentally leave one child behind. Dad is arrested and kept in jail overnight.

- Poor black child lives in motel with his mother. Drug dealers and prostitutes also live there. Mother keeps child fed, clothed well, in school, doing his homework, and completely away from the criminals at the complex. CPS puts the child in foster care.

Google Justina Pelletier, Sammy Nikolaev, the Stanley family, the Kenny A lawsuit, and the $10M Orange County had to pay out when CPS workers lied under oath about one of their cases.

I have many more I could list. CPS intervention is *not* benign. It always harms children (at a minimum by the invasive interrogation and the undermining of trust in their parents). Sometimes the harm done by CPS is less than the harm they're escaping, and thank God they're around for that. Sometimes it's not. But every time someone calls them for a child playing unsupervised in his own upper class suburban yard, the caller and the workers who bother to respond to such trivial accusations are taking resources away from the very children who so desperately need intervention the most. Calling CPS is serious business. Not calling is serious business. Think, reflect, weigh.

As a former social worker, I co-sign your post. And honestly? It's the reason why I quit my job. After seeing what unsubstantiated reports did to people's lives, it was just getting to be too much. Family, friends, and neighbors getting angry at each other and getting "revenge" by reporting those people to CPS was a weekly, if not daily, occurrence in our office. And you're right, it is very invasive. I've seen people lose their jobs just because CPS investigated them, even though the claims turned out to be unsubstantiated. Seen them rack up thousands of dollars in lawyer's fees. It's scary.

I have to say, that's one of the reasons why I have been so strongly defensive of some of the Harts' lifestyle choices on here. Other posters will say, "Well obviously we're not talking about you" but when generalizations like some of these are made, they're scary. It's important to think about what actual abuse and neglect truly is. One of the things we were always cautioned about what not to confuse a family's culture with abuse. Withholding food as punishment, leaving bruises, refusing medical care to a child-these are forms of abuse. Taking children to a festival (even one that you don't deem appropriate), allowing children to watch horror movies (yes, we had someone call in a child abuse claim because the 10 year old was allowed to watch Freddy Kruegar), vegetarianism, choosing an alternative religion, homeschooling, or even completely moving off the grid are not. They may be weird, but they're not abuse.

The system is broken. You are right to think long and hard before you call. My years as a social worker, and seeing what people can do to each other, warped me. My instinct was to move my family far, far away and cut off everyone. Only now, 9 years after leaving the position, am I getting to the point in which I feel like I can trust to let people into our lives. Use sense when reporting.
 
Not really...
I'll just say it...
it sounded like you didn't think same sex couples should be allowed to adopt. Surely I've misunderstood?

That's also what I understood.
 
If the starvation was intensifying, tiny little scapegoat Hannah would have likely felt it the hardest. She had no reserves. One horrific possibility is that she had expired from malnutrition already before they left.

She was 16 and only 45lbs it sure wouldn’t take much [emoji17]
 
News today is that the body found on April 7 has been positively identified as Sierra, now corrected to Ciera.

I keep seeing people hoping that Hannah and Devonte are found alive.

I ask myself what would life be like for them if they are still alive? We know that they got bounced around as kids before they were adopted. There are reports of abuse of child abuse in the home when these kids were young. And both of them reached out for help in the last year, saying that they were being abused. Now add to this the fact that their adopted siblings are all now dead in what appears to be a murder suicide.

These kids have been through so much and we have no idea how bad it really was for them.

As much as I don't want to see these kids dead, I also don't want to see them survive as severely traumatized individuals who are crippled socially and emotionally for the rest of their lives. I don't know if this makes sense to others, but this is how I feel as someone who values quality of life.

Look how well the Turpin kids are doing. I bet there would be a waiting list a mile long of good families wanting to adopt the kids including me.
 
How do you know how much she weighed?

It was on one of the official missing posters that was posted in a previous thread. The authorities did not say where they got the weights and heights, if they were estimates or from some kind of documentation or what.
 


It has crossed my mind that she sedated them, gave them too much intentionally/unintentionally and killed them that night. Then she got their bodies in the car and drove around until she could not anymore. I think the text on the phone was a cover and the purchase of food was a cover. Maybe the police knew it was a crime because the bodies were in rigor. They were probably dead before they hit the rocks. Sorry to be so macabre.
I don’t think it was the first time they were sedated.
 
.........
Care to expand on that? If your words were misunderstood surely you'd like to clarify?
Which bit of my post states I am opposed to adoptions by same sex partners? Then I will clarify it if I can.
 
Absolutely no disagreement with anything you said in this post, this included.



After speaking with several caseworkers, I think the reality is this: Because of human nature, it's easier to go through all the follow-through on a case you think is going to be easier (not risking your life or sanity) than one you think may involve dangerous places, dangerous people, etc. There are also areas where caseworkers don't have many real cases of abuse or neglect and are just waiting for something to dive into.

They rarely think of the inherent harm in their interventions, mostly focusing on "saving the children." They are focused on reunification sometimes, but not enough (hence the Kenny A lawsuit which class, ironically, my dear friend whose CP child was stolen from her, was part of as a former foster child in that system/time, but was never informed of). Massive government incentives are paid out when adopting kids out of foster care, but not when reunifications happen. The reunification meetings I've attended were an absolute joke. One guy was an absolute gem, but absolutely nothing he insisted in the meetings ever happened in reality. One judge was a gem who really focused on the true best interest of the child (not just childless social workers' misconceptions of what that entailed) , but he died mysteriously a few weeks later.

The ones who do a glorious job are overwhelmed with a huge workload made worse by trivial and false reports, so the children who really need help rarely get it.

I don’t know how CPS works everywhere or mostly anywhere, but in the area in Minnesota that I was from, they prioritized which cases to look at first each day. I believe they had team meetings. But this is only going by what I learned when I questioned why they never looked at kids that I reported right away.

My son inlaw who does not work in CPS but his friend does said that what looks like a tragedy to me may be nothing compared to what they are going to look at first.

The goal is reunification because it is the cheapest goal. I went to a county meeting with a bunch of other professioonals when the county was addressing the need to cut the expenses on foster care which was too high.

The county commissioner led the whole group of professionals down a carefully plotted path to get us to say reunificacafion was the best option. When it was all over, I asked myself what happened! It was all about saving money and no discussion on what the best ootions were and how to handle issues.

He must have had some kind of guide book that put out this idea because everyone does reunification. Believe me. It was not based on how to help children and families but on money.
 
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