Deceased/Not Found Ca - Hannah,16 (fnd dec), Devonte,15, (dec nf) Ciera Hart,12 (fnd dec),mendocino Cty,26 Mar 2018 #7

[Kajol85]

but why bother when we can just assert that she probably pulled them out, or punched her in the face to knock them out on purpose?

Why are we still talking about the teeth and how they came out, there actually was a ton of discussion on the prior threads, and many posters had chimed in saying they knew of something similar happening by accident. Then others chimed in how if took to dentist right away the teeth could have been saved.

Hannah may very well have fallen acvidently and knocked her teeth out but I don't find it likely given all of the rest of the information of abuse allegations, eye witness accounts of behavior we now have and the strange food obsession the Hart "mothers" had.

 

[Kajol85]

I checked MN Secretary of State inactive businesses for business name "Permanent Family" to see what came up:
Non-profit Corp (Domestic)
Registered Address was in Fergus Falls, MN
Original filing 4/12/2000
4/12/2000 Business Name Filed: Permanent Family Resource Center
9/20/2005 Involuntary Dissolution Filed
1/09/2008 Annual Reinstatement Filed
5/17/2011 Intent to Dissolve Filed
1/27/2012 Dissolution Filed
A few other details can be found there but you have to put in the business name and search "inactive":
https://mblsportal.sos.state.mn.us/Business/Search

Per MN Statute:
(a) A corporation that has failed to file a renewal pursuant to subdivision 1 must be dissolved by the secretary of state as described in paragraph (b).
https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/?id=317A.823


Red flag? If they used that particular agency it would appear the first adoption in 2006 took place after the involuntary dissolution by the SoS and before the reinstatement was filed. So during the period it was not registered as a business with the MN SoS.
September 2006: Jennifer and Sarah Hart adopt siblings Markis, Abigail and Hannah.
February 2009: Jennifer and Sarah adopt Devonte and two of his siblings [Jeremiah, Sierra]— bringing their number of children to six.
http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-n...f/2018/03/hart_family_deadly_crash_a_tim.html

Note: The above business name matches up to the old website that Mira_Eg found earlier:
http://web.archive.org/web/20071215215326/http://www.permanentfamily.org:80/history.html

Also I scanned the OR DHS report again to verify adoption dates and noticed something seems off here. Report states JH/SH became certified in MN to be "placement resource" for a friend's child in 2010. (The teen that didn't last long due to using wire hangers. See pg 19 OR DHS link below.) This was not "Lee", she arrived summer 2004 and was dumped at her therapist's appointment Spring 2005. Per the Oregon Live article linked above, the Hart's weren't even licensed as foster parents till April 2005.

My head is spinning, bear with me! So if the above info is correct, the first adoption, if through that particular agency, was done when it wasn't lawfully registered as a business with MN SoS. The first foster child Lee was taken in before they were even licensed for foster care. And if the DHS report is correct regarding the 2010 certification as placement resource, then the Harts wanted to foster again the year after adopting the 2nd set of 3 siblings?
Again, if the above is all correct AFA dates, and they used that particular agency in 2006, then these women were at times skirting around the system it would seem, or the system was letting them skirt around it. Possibly illegally? And on top of that temporarily taking in another kid for a total of 7.

Page 19, source of 2010 "placement resource" note :
https://www.scribd.com/embeds/37719...J3P2I7dtOJqmmeeiRQO&show_recommendations=true
Article on foster teen "Lee": http://www.news.com.au/world/north-...h/news-story/1b33da3f5a1922a7da75d4967ad32a62[/QUOTE]

*^^^^
Hmm that is very interesting... doesn't all appear to be on the up and up

 

[katydid23]

I, certainly, believe they were evading CPS. I just don’t believe they wanted to end it all and kill six innocent children and two dogs. I may be naive. But I refuse to believe it was intentional.

They were starving the children, forcing them to lay motionless, in a dark room, for hours at a time, as punishment. They were not allowed to laugh or to speak without permission. They had no friends, no freedom, no education, no healthcare, no love and affection.

With the way they were tortured and starved and mistreated, why would it seem surprising they would be killed?

 

[katydid23]

We have been asking ourselves WHY did CPS believe the women, and doubt there was enough evidence of abuse to take the children out of the home. Cases kept getting ruled as 'unfounded.'

I have to wonder if the social workers looked at their social media, and saw the 'adorably joyful' family photos, and were tricked into believing the phony smiles and togetherness.

 

[human]

We have been asking ourselves WHY did CPS believe the women, and doubt there was enough evidence of abuse to take the children out of the home. Cases kept getting ruled as 'unfounded.'

I have to wonder if the social workers looked at their social media, and saw the 'adorably joyful' family photos, and were tricked into believing the phony smiles and togetherness.

I worked in poverty schools so I did not have the middle class home look for the families I worked with that often lets people get a better impression than someone living in poverty.

I had a mothef who gave me a song and dance about her life that I totally believed, Her son had been a total darling until Christmas when he became dusturbed.

I talked with mom and she said Dad just went to prison, Mom had excellent skills
and we came up with a great behavior plan.

Then the aunt came and talked to me. She had the boy because the mother abandoned him for weeks at a time. She was into drugs and who inows what else.

I was totally fooled by her golden tongue Words she must have learned in the multiple treatments she had been in.

 

[Kajol85]

Why isn't there more focus on looking for Devonte and Hannah in MSM? The FBI has stated they are actively looking for them.

 

[janewall]

^^^^^ Is SH's right hand deformed in that photo??

I think Hannah may be hanging onto Sarah's thumb with both cute little fists, which makes Sarah's hand look strangely shaped and proportioned, especially as it also appears that her little finger is tucked under the rest of her hand. We're only seeing about 3/5 of her handwidth.

 

[kskiska]

From the Washington Post:

On Tuesday, Lorraine Fealy, who lived across from the family in Minnesota, told The Post that the children rarely left the house. They often marched down the stairs or stood in a line, waiting for a command from Jennifer Hart.

“This always bothered me and our neighbor next door,” she said. “It wasn’t right to us. We called them little soldiers.”

She said she once told Jennifer Hart, “Oh my gosh, how do you do it with such perfect kids?” Hart looked incredulous.

“She said, ‘They are not perfect kids!’ ” Fealy said. “She didn’t speak to me after that.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2018/04/24/oregon-officials-knew-of-hart-family-child-abuse-allegations-but-did-not-intervene-records-show/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.d900532a6ab5

 

[fridaybaker]

Wasnt she actually 16? Or do you mean at the time of the the Oregon report?

Gitana, I believe that her permanent teeth came out when she was 12 years old. I can see if I can find the actual quote/report, though.

 

[rosemadderlake]

I'm a dentist, not in the US. I have seen two patients in the past twelve months who have lost front teeth during falls-one 16 year old lost the same two as Hannah was missing when she fainted, and hit something. The second, and older lady, sadly lost six-three upper front teeth, and three lower, when she fell whilst bushwalking, and hit a rock. (She also fractured her arm, and had nasty soft tissue injuries) Teeth can be lost in falls. That said, however they were lost, they should have been replaced with a denture of some sort. (Hannah was too young to have implants)
That the children hadn't seen a dentist sadly doesn't surprise me. Where I live, there is an excellent public dental system, which, even if the family has a high income, will provide all dental treatment for a really nominal cost, (about $50 per year per family) to all children under 18, and probably 25% of kids attend for routine care. It is very depressing. I'm a private dentist, and even families that I know have a very high income do not attend regularly for routine examinations mostly.
All the photos I've seen show beautiful teeth. The kid's weren't getting too much sugar, that's for sure. (I've seen the photo of Devonte that may show an amalgam filling-yes, they are still used-and can't tell if it is or isn't a filling, does look like it though)
Wouldn't it be great if they are roaming around somewhere?

Thank you for chiming in minusfour.

Ok, as someone who has had a ton of dental work, the picture of Jen holding the bloody front tooth was a harrowing image... I have no idea where this picture is in the thread, but I wonder how did Hannah lose her whole front tooth in tact? And obviously Jen failed at any possibility of saving the original tooth by touching the root, not preserving it, not rushing Hannah to emergency. (Dental emergency 101)

It would be beyond torture to extract a tooth without anesthetic.

So what happened? Not one, but two front teeth?

The PR about Hannah not wanting two front teeth is complete BS. This child had a sunshine smile before this happened.

A retainer, a flipper, at minimum would keep her bite in place.

Furthermore, I would think since it is apparent S&J both had beautiful teeth that they would want that more than anything for Hannah.

I love my dentists. I've learned so much from them. My problems stemmed from original bite too small, crowded teeth, reconstruction in my thirties. Big expense.

Markus suffered from perhaps severe crowding, overbite, and a host of problems that comes with that.

But, before anyone accuses these women of pulling teeth, I ask you, have you ever had a tooth pulled?

Neglect, yes, but all out torture like that, I am not so convinced.

Still Hannah's teeth are an ultimate mystery, and we don't know where she is.

 

[mtnlites]

This is not the first time I've seen this kind of opinion.

Anyone here with dental expertise? As in, how hard would it be for a person without training to extract permanent teeth intact with the roots?

My sense is without the proper tool and training, the average person is likely to break the tooth while trying to extract it, but I'd like more knowledgeable people to weigh in.

We are dealing with this right now. My son fell and one of his teeth came out, roots and all. It looks very similar to the photo of Hannah's tooth. I am not convinced that they did anything to make the teeth come out. Malnutrition can loosen teeth and damage gums, causing the teeth to come out in ways that healthier people's do not. If the children were undernourished and had vitamin deficiencies (which they most likely would if they were undernourished) then it's highly possible that it came out roots and all. My son has Celiac's and we struggle with deficiencies ALL the time. That's why his came out. It's really affecting his teeth. While I am not convinced that they pulled the tooth out, I DO believe they neglected her medically and avoided taking her to the dentist to get them fixed.

TL/DR: Still their fault that it came out, but they didn't pull it (IMO)

 

[LeighB]

I do believe the CPS worker was intent on saving those kids. The stupid doctor's report was the end though.

Didn't the doctor say to schedule a follow-up in 6 months? Did that happen? Did CPS have the obligation to require the results of that follow-up appointment?

I don't know what the answer is in such situations. We've all heard stories of ignorant CPS workers taking away kids for nothing - playing in a park, false allegations, etc. So how much government control do we want to allow in order to prevent things like this from happening? Do we allow more and more intrusiveness understanding that some CPS workers are not bright or informed or educated enough for the job and who may make decisions or reports based on personal feelings or differences in attitudes about parenting or culture?

Excellent discussion.

It's a conundrum. We have strict due process requirements in every state when it comes to CPS/DHS for a reason.

Whatever precautions exist, parents accused do not have the standard Constitutional protections of the presumption of innocence, the right to face their accuser, the right to avoid self-incrimination, the right to a speedy trial, and the right to a trial by a jury of their peers unless they're "lucky" enough to get a criminal charge somewhere in the process. Children can be taken away for months or years or even permanently TPR'd without a criminal charge ever being filed.

 

[Sleuth99]

Im not sure they were all raised together. Dont try to make something out of nothing. Another poster asked about Dontay and I stated what was in the article. Dontay could have been living with someone else and that could be relevant in the adoption process. Who knows.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk

Thanks for breaking your thoughts down. I didn't get that from the original post and wanted to know more.


IMO

 

[LeighB]

Malnutrition can loosen teeth and damage gums, causing the teeth to come out in ways that healthier people's do not. If the children were undernourished and had vitamin deficiencies (which they most likely would if they were undernourished) then it's highly possible that it came out roots and all. My son has Celiac's and we struggle with deficiencies ALL the time. That's why his came out. It's really affecting his teeth. While I am not convinced that they pulled the tooth out, I DO believe they neglected her medically and avoided taking her to the dentist to get them fixed.

TL/DR: Still their fault that it came out, but they didn't pull it (IMO)

Totally. My initial image, and what I still think most likely, was of Jen pushing Hannah in anger and her landing against a corner or counter, knocking the teeth out. Really not that hard to do. I think the possibility that malnutrition did it, or played a role in the tooth being knocked out more easily than it should have, is also totally plausible.

 

[human]

Didn't the doctor say to schedule a follow-up in 6 months? Did that happen? Did CPS have the obligation to require the results of that follow-up appointment?


Excellent discussion.


Whatever precautions exist, parents accused do not have the standard Constitutional protections of the presumption of innocence, the right to face their accuser, the right to avoid self-incrimination, the right to a speedy trial, and the right to a trial by a jury of their peers unless they're "lucky" enough to get a criminal charge somewhere in the process. Children can be taken away for months or years or even permanently TPR'd without a criminal charge ever being filed.

Do you have any evidence of that?

 

[gitana1]

Thank you for chiming in minusfour.

Ok, as someone who has had a ton of dental work, the picture of Jen holding the bloody front tooth was a harrowing image... I have no idea where this picture is in the thread, but I wonder how did Hannah lose her whole front tooth in tact? And obviously Jen failed at any possibility of saving the original tooth by touching the root, not preserving it, not rushing Hannah to emergency. (Dental emergency 101)

It would be beyond torture to extract a tooth without anesthetic.

So what happened? Not one, but two front teeth?

The PR about Hannah not wanting two front teeth is complete BS. This child had a sunshine smile before this happened.

A retainer, a flipper, at minimum would keep her bite in place.

Furthermore, I would think since it is apparent S&J both had beautiful teeth that they would want that more than anything for Hannah.

I love my dentists. I've learned so much from them. My problems stemmed from original bite too small, crowded teeth, reconstruction in my thirties. Big expense.

Markus suffered from perhaps severe crowding, overbite, and a host of problems that comes with that.

But, before anyone accuses these women of pulling teeth, I ask you, have you ever had a tooth pulled?

Neglect, yes, but all out torture like that, I am not so convinced.

Still Hannah's teeth are an ultimate mystery, and we don't know where she is.

Yeah I think jen just punched her in the mouth. For being "disrespectful."

 

[gitana1]

Didn't the doctor say to schedule a follow-up in 6 months? Did that happen? Did CPS have the obligation to require the results of that follow-up appointment?


Excellent discussion.


Whatever precautions exist, parents accused do not have the standard Constitutional protections of the presumption of innocence, the right to face their accuser, the right to avoid self-incrimination, the right to a speedy trial, and the right to a trial by a jury of their peers unless they're "lucky" enough to get a criminal charge somewhere in the process. Children can be taken away for months or years or even permanently TPR'd without a criminal charge ever being filed.

I;m not sure what the doctor stated. Six months would be too long IMO, having seen kids that small and thin from two different families of origin and knowing CPS was involved. Seems to me another example of many in which the mothers were given the benefit of the doubt while the kids were given the burden of doubt.

As to the standard constitutional protections as you described, those are actually due process rights in the context of a criminal case. They do not apply in situations like this. But there are, indeed, due process protections. They just look different. It's procedural due process:

"In Santosky v. Kramer,20 the Supreme Court addressed the issue of whether
the fair preponderance of the evidence standard of proof was a sufficient
standard upon which a state could completely and irrevocably sever the
natural parents' rights to their children. The Santosky Court held that natural
parents have a constitutionally protected liberty interest in the care, custody,
and management of their children, and that this interest must be accorded
fundamentally fair procedures. 2' Upon examination of a typical termination
proceeding, the Court determined that numerous factors exist which create
a significant probability of an erroneous termination of parental rights.22
Consequently, the Santosky Court rejected the fair preponderance of the
evidence standard of proof and held that due process requires the state to
support its allegations of parental unfitness by clear and convincing evidence.23

An analysis of procedural due process must begin with the fourteenth
amendment which commands that no state shall "deprive any person of life,
liberty, or property without due process of law." 2 ' The fundamental requirements
of procedural due process mandate that an individual be given
an opportunity to be heard2 5 at a meaningful time and in a meaningful manner
prior to the deprivation of life, liberty, or property.26 These procedural
safeguards, which have evolved to include notice,27 the right to a hearing,2 "
and the right to present evidence,2 9 are derived from the theory that personal
freedom can be preserved only when there is a check on arbitrary
governmental action."

http://via.library.depaul.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2262&context=law-review

So in a termination or CPS child removal case, due process includes notice, the right to a hearing, the right to present evidence and there must be clear and convincing evidence - that's the standard, which is steep - of neglect or abuse in order to remove the kids in question.

How such evidence is acquired is also part of the due process equation.

Here is a more comprehensive article with rulings from various cases federally and around the country as to due process in the context of dependency cases: http://www.sdap.org/downloads/research/dependency/dep-policy.pdf

Here is an article suggesting that due process rights of the parents in such cases are at the expense of the due process rights of the kids involved: https://scholarship.law.edu/cgi/vie...om/&httpsredir=1&article=1485&context=scholar

 

[Stunned]

I took it to mean a big crock of **** and a twisted hat-tip to "Mommie Dearest."

[video=youtube;XOILKHmZBwc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOILKHmZBwc[/video]

My first thought also!

 

[Stunned]

Dontay is Devonte's older brother who the Harts rejected and would not adopt with the other siblings. And yes I think he was 9 at the time.

What? I hadn’t heard that!

 

[Stunned]

Here is the website of the adoption agency Permanent Family as captured on the Wayback Machine. They found the families, then sent them to states like Texas to shop for children. Did Texas pay the adoption agency too?

See who's featured on the homepage

If link doesn't load properly, refresh your browser. The Wayback can be cranky.

Jan 14 2008
https://tinyurl.com/ybfdd6sd

There was a site like this back on one of the threads. I get that there are so many (too many) children needing homes out there. But it gave me the creeps. Like shopping for desperate kids. I’m sure some good comes from these sites...but, scared me.