CA - Joey, Summer, Gianni, Joseph Jr McStay Murders - Feb 4th 2010 #15

[Force Ten]

Sound a Little Familiar?

With all the talk about oh gee he had no violent background so why do you accuse him of being a killer. He he's not a violent person. Try again and do a little research maybe you'll see it differently.

Watch this episode and change some of the circumstances and you have a perfect example of the McStay murders by CM. So much for his nonviolence crap.

Episode: ID Discovery Deadly Secrets "The Devils Allure"

I found this interesting that aired on ID Discovery today. It is about a man who is a professional con artist. He cons older women and takes over their lives and finances. Then when she finds out that he is only after their money and has siphoned her money. Then there is his not having a violent past and never murdered anyone that is known. He kills his latest victim in a rage when she finds out and confronts him.

Reminds me of February 4, 2010 and the possibilities. AMHO

That story sound like that of Bernie Tiede. He was a mortician who befriended a woman with money. He ended up shooting her in the back and stuffed her in a freezer for 6 months while he spent her money. They made a fantastic movie about it. Zero violence in his background and everyone in the town loved him.

 

[Niner]

Good morning everyone!

From the Court Portal..

Yesterday’s (4/11/19) motions were vacated. Jury trial held.

Next scheduled Jury Trial 4/15/19 at 9:30 AM. Nothing further posted on Court calendar.

Re Motions were vacated. Is that mean denied or just cancelled? And that refers to Microsoft, google & the documentary?? I'm lost... LOL!

and Thank you Mica! I'll just keep Monday-Thursday this coming week as jurors will be there for the time being until we know more!

Love your Sponge Guy Tortoise! I needed a good laugh this morning....

With fresh DNA, I am certain his processing is invaluable, but in this case, not so much. I just can't get past the fact there was no McStay match made with the grave DNA.

I have to agree with you. Why NOT any DNA from ANY of the McStays??

 

[MsBetsy]

I may be wrong but I believe it was actually yourself stating he had no violent background.

No, of course of Merritt being an ex-con doesn't indicate he's a killer. I think you're drawing your own conclusions on that. His ex-con status (it is lengthy as well) reflects a pattern of thievery and deception. Many thieves, petty and professional have graduated from stealing to outright murder.

In addition, the fact that he had an impulsive gambling addiction, owed the victim money, and stole from the victim points to motive. Imo

 

[Frankie Hellis]

Do you know if the TrueAllele is generally accepted in the wider scientific community? Because if not, it shouldn't have passed the Frye standard of allowing it as admissable. If there was a hearing for that, IMO.

According to the Harvard Journal of Law and Technology cite Missy posted, Thr President’s Council of Advisors on Science and Technology (“PCAST”) report calls for both large-scale scientific studies on common sets of samples, to establish foundational validity of a method, as well as internal developmental validation studies by individual forensic laboratories to assess the as-applied validity in a particular setting.

I definitely think it is not widely accepted. It’s competitors have had better success with their testimony being allowed into cases, but that is because they provide access to their source code, and thus their process is more easily validated.

I don’t know if there was even a Frye hearing for this in the McStay case, but there should have been!

 

[Tortoise]

Thanks, I will listen to his testimony again. IIRC he documented what others told him, and even the above doesn't tell me what I am wanting to know... was the bra 'with' the ribs? was it beside them? was it as if she was wearing it?

Oh sorry I thought you were wanting to know if it was under her body as Mr Daugherty said it was.

I was looking because the prosecutor mentioned 'if it was under the body' with decomposition, would they expect to find Summer's DNA. But I can't find that it was under the body

I have no idea if it was with the ribs or if it was as if she was wearing it. It might have been asked and answered somewhere and we wouldn't know because the recording of the trial was so bad with parts cutting out and L&C also lost some parts of testimony. The video of his testimony skips parts as it plays.

IMO I don't know if they would know after the animal disturbance if she had been wearing the bra or even if it was completely intact when she went into the grave - a lot of Summer's torso appears to be missing. It could have been ripped out with tugging by animals if it was say a delicate part of the bra, like maybe a lace panel or a stitched seam, because if she was laying on her left side the strap that could have been over her left shoulder could have provided resistance to tugging. The shoulder strap looks as if it has come apart from the bra too, it is detached from the bra at one end in the photo. The only information we have is that the left side of the bra was found at a depth of 12" and it was recovered in a clump of mud with what appeared to be some white towel.

When Sgt Avila got there on day 2 the excavation of grave B had started and there were five items that had already been removed and told to him. Those were two cranium bones, a rib bone, another cranium bone with hair, a cervical vertebrae, and a skull. (Actually that looks like 6 but they did say 5 so maybe he was there for one of those.) He had personal knowledge of the rest of the items recovered and he documented them because he was cross-examined on it and the prosecutor objected to him being cross-examined on the first five items on the basis that he lacked personal knowledge for them.

Summer's remains:

 

[coastal]

Oh sorry I thought you were wanting to know if it was under her body as Mr Daugherty said it was. No idea. It might have been asked and answered somewhere and we wouldn't know because the recording of the trial was so bad with parts cutting out and L&C also lost some parts of testimony. The video of his testimony skips parts as it plays.

IMO I don't know if they would know after the animal disturbance if she had been wearing the bra or even if it was completely intact when she went into the grave - a lot of Summer's torso appears to be missing. It could have been ripped out with tugging by animals if it was say a delicate part of the bra, like maybe a lace panel or a stitched seam, because if she was laying on her left side the strap that could have been over her left shoulder could have provided resistance to tugging. The shoulder strap looks as if it has come apart from the bra too, it is detached from the bra at one end in the photo. The only information we have is that the left side of the bra was found at a depth of 12" and it was recovered in a clump of mud with what appeared to be some white towel.

When Sgt Avila got there on day 2 the excavation of grave B had started and there were five items that had already been removed and told to him. Those were two cranium bones, a rib bone, another cranium bone with hair, a cervical vertebrae, and a skull. (Actually that looks like 6 but they did say 5 so maybe he was there for one of those.) He had personal knowledge of the rest of the items recovered and he documented them because he was cross-examined on it and the prosecutor objected to him being cross-examined on the first five items on the basis that he lacked personal knowledge for them.

Summer's remains:

View attachment 179496

Oh. My.

 

[Tortoise]

This is probably the best photo I have of Grave B (although I'm still looking) Looking at this one, I would say on her right, but slightly forward or laying on her stomach. I have actually wondered if that is the bra laying on top (just below the skull), but I don't think either lawyer asked what it was Sure looks blackish to me, and some sort of cloth, and we know she wasn't wearing a shirt.

ETA: it might be the backpack... forgot that was in that grave as well.

If that's her hair on the left side of the skull my best guess is that's the back of her head and her face would be still buried on the right, which would indicate she was laying on her left side. But JMO

 

[citygirl]

This is probably the best photo I have of Grave B (although I'm still looking) Looking at this one, I would say on her right, but slightly forward or laying on her stomach. I have actually wondered if that is the bra laying on top (just below the skull), but I don't think either lawyer asked what it was Sure looks blackish to me, and some sort of cloth, and we know she wasn't wearing a shirt.

ETA: it might be the backpack... forgot that was in that grave as well.

Looks like a large depression on the lower skull. Don't recall where her injuries were.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Reading their website, I can see how there is a strong case for this where you have two mixed samples and you want to untangle it - and from that process you can essentially find the needle in the haystack which matches a known profile you were looking for.

This is also something you can obviously scientifically validate via trialling (if we trust Perlin's internal validation)

What I am far less sure about is where we have heavily degraded DNA including possibly non human DNA as the starting data. The computer is going to come out with results based on the starting assumptions (2, 3, 4 humans) no matter what the input.

So if I understand what they have done here, they didn't find the profiles of 2, 3 or 4 humans. They told the computer to assume that and the computer then creates results based on those assumptions.

But it seems actually some DNA was likely not even human??

I do see an advantage using this system to identify commingled DNA profiles found in rape kits that aren't degraded.

The labs already have the ability to identify commingled samples found in rape victim kits, but this system may make that process easier. Especially for rape victims who were to have been gang raped by more than one suspect.

The part about some of the DNA found in this case may not have even been human is mind boggling to me. Do they have a way of removing any DNA that may not even be human from the final results?

Did he include the bacteria found that would have made the peaks artificially higher?

I guess what I'm asking if this is all done by computer software does that software identify what may only be environmental artifacts, and remove them in order to get a cleaner results? Or does it just lump everything together regardless?

Did he say they have sucessfully used this system before on other items found inside or found outside of graves that have been there for many years? If so, did he cite those cases by name where the circumstances were similar to this case?

TIA

Imo

 

[Karinna]

According to the Harvard Journal of Law and Technology cite Missy posted, Thr President’s Council of Advisors on Science and Technology (“PCAST”) report calls for both large-scale scientific studies on common sets of samples, to establish foundational validity of a method, as well as internal developmental validation studies by individual forensic laboratories to assess the as-applied validity in a particular setting.

I definitely think it is not widely accepted. It’s competitors have had better success with their testimony being allowed into cases, but that is because they provide access to their source code, and thus their process is more easily validated.

I don’t know if there was even a Frye hearing for this in the McStay case, but there should have been!

Thanks for your reply, and i think there was a hearing but not sure what type of hearing it was?

 

[Karinna]

Looks like a large depression on the lower skull. Don't recall where her injuries were.

Quote
To quote Dr. Changsri, she had multiple fractures of the
jaw, a fracture of the left parietal bone, two fractures of the
right frontal bone, the fracture to the parietal bone with hair
embedded in it, and the fracture of the left frontal bone.
Q You’re referring to the identification — to the remains
identified as Summer McStay? A That’s correct.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Quote
To quote Dr. Changsri, she had multiple fractures of the
jaw, a fracture of the left parietal bone, two fractures of the
right frontal bone, the fracture to the parietal bone with hair
embedded in it, and the fracture of the left frontal bone.
Q You’re referring to the identification — to the remains
identified as Summer McStay? A That’s correct.

Thank you.

It's so heartbreaking to know what all Summer endured along with the other 3 victims.

All of the injuries shows they were done by the murderer while facing her. Imo, he absolutely wanted her to know who was standing in front of her wielding each horrific blow against her.

It shows he wasn't behind her, crushing the back of her skull in where she would have been unable to see the blows coming.

I pray that all four victims lost consciousness very shortly after the first powerful blow was swung against each one of them.

As an aside:

In a prior post smr mentioned that I had called CM one of the worst of the worst. I did post my opinion about him being one of the worst. I still stand by that opinion 100%.

Only the worst of the worst among us are capable of crushing the skulls in of two defenseless very young fragile children who were totally innocent.

Because he is one of the worst is the very reason this is a death penalty qualified case.

What he did, how it did it, and against whom, met several legal prong requirements rising it to death penalty option case.

Imo

 

[missy1974]

If that's her hair on the left side of the skull my best guess is that's the back of her head and her face would be still buried on the right, which would indicate she was laying on her left side. But JMO

Yeah, it's hard to tell which side IMO I thought right, then thought left, and really... I'm not sure. I was listening to the testimony last night while watching hockey. I went back to Dr. Gray. On the 2nd day, but the 1st day of excavating, Dr. Gray was only there for part of it and then turned over grave b to a Deputy Hunter, who hasn't testified, so I think that's why we didn't 'hear' it. I wonder why they didn't call him (assuming it's a he). Also, like you said, the bra could have been moved with animal activity.

 

[citygirl]

Yeah, it's hard to tell which side IMO I thought right, then thought left, and really... I'm not sure. I was listening to the testimony last night while watching hockey. I went back to Dr. Gray. On the 2nd day, but the 1st day of excavating, Dr. Gray was only there for part of it and then turned over grave b to a Deputy Hunter, who hasn't testified, so I think that's why we didn't 'hear' it. I wonder why they didn't call him (assuming it's a he). Also, like you said, the bra could have been moved with animal activity.

The photos don't have much clarity, to me. Even zooming in doesn't help very much. I would assume the jury has better pics. The bodies were in such bad shape.

 

[missy1974]

The photos don't have much clarity, to me. Even zooming in doesn't help very much. I would assume the jury has better pics. The bodies were in such bad shape.

don't forget... we are getting pics from a video taken of a tv screen of the pics.... I tried zooming in on a few, yeah... it was worse than Mitcheley's video lol

 

[smr]

Sound a Little Familiar?

With all the talk about oh gee he had no violent background so why do you accuse him of being a killer. He he's not a violent person. Try again and do a little research maybe you'll see it differently.

Watch this episode and change some of the circumstances and you have a perfect example of the McStay murders by CM. So much for his nonviolence crap.

Episode: ID Discovery Deadly Secrets "The Devils Allure"

I found this interesting that aired on ID Discovery today. It is about a man who is a professional con artist. He cons older women and takes over their lives and finances. Then when she finds out that he is only after their money and has siphoned her money. Then there is his not having a violent past and never murdered anyone that is known. He kills his latest victim in a rage when she finds out and confronts him.

Reminds me of February 4, 2010 and the possibilities. AMHO

I'm not sure anyone said he had no violent background so why do you accuse him of being a killer. The "violent background" topic came up only because some were essentially saying that Chase's being an ex-con made him likely guilty of the murder.

So let's see:

1. Some (let's call it Party X) claim the ex-con status, together with the other evidence the PT have, point to CM as being guilty of murdering the family.

2. Party Y (me and I believe a few others) point out that:
(1) Ex-con status has no bearing on whether he's guilty or not.
(2) CM's ex-con status does not even involve violence.

3. Party X now say that it's possible to be not violent and yet still be guilty of murder.

Soooo??? What's your argument? What are you trying to conclude?
That CM is ex-con? (True, but so what?)
That CM is violent? (No evidence and no conviction)
That CM is guilty of murder? Because he's an ex-con? or because some non-violent people do commit murder?

Let me add:
It's possible to be an ex-con and not guilty of murder.

And if CM is not guilty, would that still "sound a little familiar"?

I may be wrong but I believe it was actually yourself stating he had no violent background.

No, of course of Merritt being an ex-con doesn't indicate he's a killer. I think you're drawing your own conclusions on that. His ex-con status (it is lengthy as well) reflects a pattern of thievery and deception. Many thieves, petty and professional have graduated from stealing to outright murder.

I said he had no violent crime history, I didn't say "so why are you accusing him.....". Please compare the bold faced parts, which is what I was replying to (BBM).

All that you and bobcat1 and some others can say is that some people with ex-con status have graduated from thieving to murder. But some is not all. There is no necessary correlation between being an ex-con and being a murderer, otherwise we are in big trouble.

According to your logic:
1. Some people with no education background committed murder.
2. Smith has no education background.
Therefore, Smith committed (or likely committed) murder.

 

[Force Ten]

I said he had no violent crime history, I didn't say "so why are you accusing him.....". Please compare the bold faced parts, which is what I was replying to (BBM).

All that you and bobcat1 and some others can say is that some people with ex-con status have graduated from thieving to murder. But some is not all. There is no necessary correlation between being an ex-con and being a murderer, otherwise we are in big trouble.

According to your logic:
1. Some people with no education background committed murder.
2. Smith has no education background.
Therefore, Smith committed (or likely committed) murder.

I can't make much sense of your response because it's convoluted.

I never once mentioned anyone's education or lack thereof.

People, with and without a record, murder. A hardened criminal is more likely to commit murder than those who aren't. This is a statistical fact.

 

[smr]

I can't make much sense of your response because it's convoluted.

I never once mentioned anyone's education or lack thereof.

People, with and without a record, murder. A hardened criminal is more likely to commit murder than those who aren't. This is a statistical fact.

My example is to show you what one could have reached if one follows your "logic".

 

[QueenBofOB]

Thank you.

It's so heartbreaking to know what all Summer endured along with the other 3 victims.

All of the injuries shows they were done by the murderer while facing her. Imo, he absolutely wanted her to know who was standing in front of her wielding each horrific blow against her.

It shows he wasn't behind her, crushing the back of her skull in where she would have been unable to see the blows coming.

I pray that all four victims lost consciousness very shortly after the first powerful blow was swung against each one of them.

As an aside:

In a prior post smr mentioned that I had called CM one of the worst of the worst. I did post my opinion about him being one of the worst. I still stand by that opinion 100%.

Only the worst of the worst among us are capable of crushing the skulls in of two defenseless very young fragile children who were totally innocent.

Because he is one of the worst is the very reason this is a death penalty qualified case.

What he did, how it did it, and against whom, met several legal prong requirements rising it to death penalty option case.

Imo

And *I* stand in agreement, with you OBE, on your opinion of this lazy, backstabbing, thieving, conniving, disgusting piece of trash. CM IS THE WORST OF THE WORST and not fit to live among civilized human beings.

 

[la2cabo]

And *I* stand in agreement, with you OBE, on your opinion of this lazy, backstabbing, thieving, conniving, disgusting piece of trash. CM IS THE WORST OF THE WORST and not fit to live among civilized human beings.

Even if Merritt isn't convicted of the quadruple murder he has very few, if any, redeeming qualities. He's just not a decent, law-abiding citizen and makes a living off scamming good people.