CA - Joey, Summer, Gianni, Joseph Jr McStay Murders - Feb 4th 2010 #5

[cobalt sky]

Work has been really busy so I am behind on the videos but I did get to watch most of Dr. Rudin's testimony. My impression of it was that it was about 50% good, sensible testimony, mixed with about 50% unnecessary bs lol! He is clearly a very intelligent man and very passionate about his work. One thing that stood out to me is his comment that the method he used in this case was a "hybrid of live superimposition and classical photogrammetry". It is unclear if this method has ever been used by him before in court, or by anyone in court for that matter. My concern is that it appears that he has created this method in tandem with performing his forensic study, if that makes sense. He has also admitted that there is subjectivity in this method, particularly when it comes to measuring margins of error. In the end, he stated directly to the Judge that he could not eliminate the truck, but could also not confirm that it WAS Merritt's truck. So I'm not sure how useful this testimony is going to be. Also, it seems that he is continuing to do further work and make changes in his results, which is alarming to me and again makes me think that he is creating this method and "fixing things" as he goes along. Also, I find it odd that he has not documented in writing any of his results. That again makes me suspect that he is not using scientifically accepted, peer-reviewed methods, but rather creating the method as he goes along. If he was using solely objective technology there would be no need to keep going back and "playing around" to get the results. To be clear, I'm not accusing him of anything shady, this is typical "math brain" stuff (hubby has the same math brain). I think that the Pros are going to have to coach him a bit on his presentation before he testifies before the jury. He needs to answer questions with direct, simple responses, without unnecessary embellishment, otherwise he will be very easy for the defense to manipulate.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I was just going to post a question about this! I was wondering, if there is absolute proof that DK was in Hawaii and that he was in no way involved, why would the court even allow this woman to testify? Isn't that just a huge waste of time that might confuse the jury? So why is it even being allowed? From your comment Mrjitty it sounds like since it was a confession it has to be allowed, even if there is proof that it would be impossible for him to be involved?

I really dont know the legal answer, but Im sure mrjitty does.

I do remember in the Daron Wint trial when it was held the judge allowed the defense to accuse his two brothers of committing the 4 murders. Even though the state had witnesses, and cell phone data showing neither brother were even close to the murder scene the day the 4 were murdered.

But the judge allowed it in even though the judge already knew the state had evidence proving otherwise.

I think some of it in this case may be because it's a death penalty case so the judge is giving wide latitude to the defense to make their case.

I think the judge wants to air on the side of caution and knows by allowing it in then it isn't an appellate issue if convicted.

Imo

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I think Dr. Rudin came across as very open and honest with no personal biases either way.

He is just to give them what he did, and how he came to his results.

He knows it will be up to the jury to decide if it is Merritt's truck or not. He knows that's their job, and not his.

Imo

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I don’t think we have seen that there is concrete proof he was in Hawaii as of yet.

I know they have flight details but that’s not concrete proof.

I think in due time we will learn in great detail how the homicide investigators verified DKs alibi.

 

[Bernina]

If DK's GF had gone to the FBI, and they believed she was legit, don't you think the FBI would have passed that information on the the proper authorities, ie, the prosecution or the defense?
For her to then go to the defense, it sounds like the FBI wasn't buying her story...

And why didn't she just go to the LE in the jurisdiction she was currently living in?

 

[Force Ten]

@oceanblueeyes

TR, DK's friend or ex gf... all we know is what I posted in post #207, and that is from OS's. She went to both the investigators (I don't know that it was the FBI) and the defense on Oct 26, it says the confession came 2 weeks previous.

The Judge has ruled that Tracey can testify and she can testify about the confession. What I got from the judge yesterday is that any comments DK made and his background cannot be brought up. EIP transactions before and after the disappearance can be, the sale of the business can be brought up, and this testimony about DK confessing can be.

Of course I am assuming this is just until DK testifies if the Defense calls him. I am not sure if they will be limited if that happens.

I expect to hear a lot of sustained objectives from the prosecution. I'm guessing what DK stated in interviews will also not be allowed? Defense will go for the throat on him, specifically the transactions and the sale of EIP. He may actually come out unscathed, although he's pretty cocky and I could see the defense getting him rattled very easily.

 

[Tortoise]

I'm no cell phone expert, and in fact I've never owned one, which will probably become abundantly clear from my questions and possibly false interpretations.

I noticed a few strange things on Joey's records. (see screenshot below - click to enlarge)

On a different date I noticed that when Joey was at home (my interpretation based on string of calls to/from Fallbrook) the cell tower location is "51132 Fallbrook". When he's on the move, ie he's still in Fallbrook but his next call location is a different town, the cell tower location is "51133 Fallbrook".

If this is correct, on the 4th,

4.18 pm his cell location is 51133 (on the move close to home) - 3 minute call to Chase' phone (lasting until 4.21 pm).
4.25 pm (4 mins later) the house phone makes a call to Joey but it isn't on his call records, so his phone is off and voicemail is left?
4.27 pm (2 mins later) his cell location is 51132 (at home) when 2 x voicemails are retrieved (4 min. and 2 min.) so 4.27 to 4.33 pm. The second voicemail could be the 4.25 house call. The first voicemail could be if the house phone tried calling him at 4.18.
5.05 pm text from Summer's phone to Joey - not on his call records so phone off?
5.47 pm (1 hr 14 mins after the voicemail retrieval) his cell is at 51132 (at home) makes a +/- 3 min. call to Chase' phone.
8.28 pm (2 hrs 40 mins later) his cell location is 51133 (on the move close to home) calls Chase +/- 1 minute, call doesn't connect.

Looking at this and using my interpretations I would say something happened to Joey before 4.25 pm. His phone off after calling Chase, the house phone making a call to him 4 mins after he connects Chase, and then 2 minutes later listening to voicemails at home. Summer must be at home to call him at 4.25, so she's not out. If he's there 2 minutes later there's no need to check the voicemails from her, he can ask what's up as he walks in the door. She texts him half an hour later and his phone is off again but he was there (if he was with his phone) at times either side of her text. He makes no work calls all afternoon.

I speculate 4.18 pm that is Chase getting near the home with Joey's phone. All the calls to Chase' phone are a ruse to try and show Joey is alive and going home, because he is a prolific phone user, voicemails are left. After the 5.48 call Chase' phone runs out of charge. Chase is parked in the driveway by 4.25 and Summer calls Joey to ask what Chase is doing outside. He sits in his truck and plays back the voicemails. After 4.33 pm he knocks on the door and Summer opens the door because she thinks something might have happened to Joey. He's there from 4.33 to just before 8 pm, less than 3 and a half hours. He's killed Summer and the children, put them in clothing containers, has cleaned up, dealt with the dogs and the fence, and then gathers business information from the office for his needs. When he gets back to his phone at 9.32 pm he puts it on charge to call Cathy.

The other thing I don't know is whether charged cell phones ping the tower when a voicemail is left.

 

[fridaybaker]

According to the testimony from MSM, all the fabrication was really being done by MSM by the final year, with CM doing the plumbing and wiring.

My suspicion is that Joey was too out of the detail (perhaps he didn't like to get his hands dirty) and was likely paying CM the lions share of the construction fees for not much.

If I recall, although Joey might have been "out of the detail", it was more likely that he was just very busy with administering a growing business with contracts nationwide/international in scope, rather than not wanting to get his hands dirty. I'm certainly not 100% sure about this, but that's more how I remember it.

 

[fridaybaker]

IIRC Joey was just exiting very tough times as the long recession was still biting discretionary spending.

So the economy was recovering, but also the SEO was really working to deliver a pipeline of sales

Essentially all the value in the business came out of SEO. I think this is what Joey realised in his dispute with DK. He needed to own and control the front end marketing function of this ecommerce operation. So his plan was to end his partnership with DK and simply pay DK to do SEO

IMO the operations side was a mess. CM was clearly killing his margins.

Mrjitty -that's how I remember it.

 

[MissJames]

IIRC this trial is supposed to take 3+ months so I’m hoping a lot of these issues will be explained. I just hope the Prosecution CAN explain why her info was dismissed.
I have so many thoughts on this trial
but something that will not become evidence in court is the defendant’s willingness to sit tight in jail for YEARS, delaying his trial ,which only benefits the person who murdered the McStay family.If the defense had solid exculpatory evidence they wouldn’t risk waiting or they’d be in the same position the prosecution now finds itself in.
I hope we hear from Merritt’s sister ( heard just a comment in court she was one of the anonymous tipsters LE followed up on) , the guy who was panning for gold with Merritt , though he may be deemed irrelevent , and the latest business partner of Merritt’s who could establish a pattern of behavior.
I’m trying to be patient , but know the best evidence doesn’t always lead to a conviction these days. This defense is hungry for a win & they’re good at it , IMO.
Another thought,this one on Dr. Rudin’s testimony- Jurors would have to all be members of MENSA if they were expected to understand the intricacies of every scientific method used to secure evidence. We all know Luminol reacts to blood ,as well as other substances , to increase the possibility of finding blood evidence . Do we know EXACTLY why that is ? Beyond a simple explanation , we trust the experts who testify that it does ,indeed , work as a presumptive test for blood. We don’t have to be PhD’s in chemistry to believe those testifying about evidence found using luminol .

 

[asyousay]

We have since heard that the trial will be 6 months long not 3 months. Unless it’s been altered again but with the amount of dark time I can see this dragging on forever.

 

[Emi]

Cathy Russon on Twitter
Cathy Russon‏ @cathyrusson 18h18 hours ago
#McStay - Under direct examination Russ was asked about the FARO scanner and how it worked, however under cross-exam we learn he processed Merritt's white truck, looking for blood. (cont)

0 replies0 retweets0 likes

Cathy Russon on Twitter
Cathy Russon‏ @cathyrusson 18h18 hours ago
#McStay - He sprayed the cargo and cab of Merritt's truck, he found no evidence of blood. This test was done in 2014.

Cathy Russon on Twitter
Cathy Russon‏ @cathyrusson 18h18 hours ago
#McStay - State ran out of witnesses for today. Court resumes tomorrow 9:30am PST

Cathy Russon on Twitter
Cathy Russon‏ @cathyrusson 17h17 hours ago
#McStay - Prosecutor Imes seeks to admit Charles Merritt's 2014 interview with CNN - clips of that interview were aired in CNN documentary.

Cathy Russon on Twitter
Cathy Russon‏ @cathyrusson 17h17 hours ago
#McStay - The judge ruled if the prosecution lays the proper foundation, they can show it.

 

[Emi]

 

[Emi]

delete

 

[Cricket28]

Well I'm headed to the courthouse to attend the McStay trial. I'll try to post during breaks but I've never posted from my phone before. I'll try to figure it out, if not then I'll definitely post when I get home.

 

[Tortoise]

Well I'm headed to the courthouse to attend the McStay trial. I'll try to post during breaks but I've never posted from my phone before. I'll try to figure it out, if not then I'll definitely post when I get home.

I hope it's interesting today!

 

[fridaybaker]

IIRC this trial is supposed to take 3+ months so I’m hoping a lot of these issues will be explained. I just hope the Prosecution CAN explain why her info was dismissed.
I have so many thoughts on this trial
but something that will not become evidence in court is the defendant’s willingness to sit tight in jail for YEARS, delaying his trial ,which only benefits the person who murdered the McStay family.If the defense had solid exculpatory evidence they wouldn’t risk waiting or they’d be in the same position the prosecution now finds itself in.
I hope we hear from Merritt’s sister ( heard just a comment in court she was one of the anonymous tipsters LE followed up on) , the guy who was panning for gold with Merritt , though he may be deemed irrelevent , and the latest business partner of Merritt’s who could establish a pattern of behavior.
I’m trying to be patient , but know the best evidence doesn’t always lead to a conviction these days. This defense is hungry for a win & they’re good at it , IMO.
Another thought,this one on Dr. Rudin’s testimony- Jurors would have to all be members of MENSA if they were expected to understand the intricacies of every scientific method used to secure evidence. We all know Luminol reacts to blood ,as well as other substances , to increase the possibility of finding blood evidence . Do we know EXACTLY why that is ? Beyond a simple explanation , we trust the experts who testify that it does ,indeed , work as a presumptive test for blood. We don’t have to be PhD’s in chemistry to believe those testifying about evidence found using luminol .

Wish I had the time to go back through ALL of the old threads! One of the biggest problems that I have with the DK confession is that, at some point, we learned that DK was quite young at the time this all happened, and that he was quite a cad, if that's a word these days. There was a website where people would go and complain about their dates, and there was a woman there who really took him to the woodshed. (I think there may have been more than one!) Essentially, that he used her, disrespected her, etc. The whole thing was incredibly unseemly to me, but bespoke of DK being very immature and, yes, a cad with the ladies at that time of his life.

I think there would have to be much more context around the said confession to the girlfriend for it to have much meaning. Ocean brings up SO MANY good points about it: Which agency did she report it to, and why? Did she actually make a "police report"? If she were so afraid of him, did she obtain a restraining order? Etc., etc.

Everything I've learned so far about this case points me to Merritt rather than DK. Even his alibi would have to be explicitly dis-proven for me to consider him at this point. Everything to me says Chase: phone calls, checks, etc., together with all of the other circumstantial and anecdotal points, including Chase's past, things he's said in interviews, things people have said about him that consistently paint a picture, his incredible physical strength, connection with grave site area..... On and on and on.

DK's fight over the website/marketing with Joey is very typical, in my experience. He was young and a cad with women.

Merritt, not DK, so far for me.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

If DK's GF had gone to the FBI, and they believed she was legit, don't you think the FBI would have passed that information on the the proper authorities, ie, the prosecution or the defense?
For her to then go to the defense, it sounds like the FBI wasn't buying her story...

And why didn't she just go to the LE in the jurisdiction she was currently living in?

Of course they would. DK or CM wouldnt mean a thing to them. They would be interested in who the actual killer was of this family of 4 no matter what their name happened to be.

Just like the prosecutors would have if the homicide investigators had uncovered any evidence pointing to DK as the killer or even if the evidence showed he was involved in any manner.

Neither of these two men meant anything personally to any of the prosecutors or the investigators one way or the other.

They dont find someone who they believe is guilty of any crime based on what their names may or may not be.

What their name happens to be means nothing to them. The one accused, and charged is based solely on the evidence in its entirety done after a lengthy investigation has been completed.

I always feel every prosecutor save their very best evidence until right at the end of the trial.

Most of the time they have already figured out the defense is going to put on their own CIC so often they wait until rebuttal to have the most lasting affect.

Imo, the state is going to let the defense rave on about DK, DK, DK, and more DK in the defense case, and in rebuttal the state is going to bring the hammer down hard once and for all!

It's going to take the wind out of everything the defense has been trying to hoodwink the jury into believing about DK IS THE ONE!

Just stay tuned,.the best is yet to come although months away. Lol

Imo

 

[Plumeria5]

I'm no cell phone expert, and in fact I've never owned one, which will probably become abundantly clear from my questions and possibly false interpretations.

I noticed a few strange things on Joey's records. (see screenshot below - click to enlarge)

On a different date I noticed that when Joey was at home (my interpretation based on string of calls to/from Fallbrook) the cell tower location is "51132 Fallbrook". When he's on the move, ie he's still in Fallbrook but his next call location is a different town, the cell tower location is "51133 Fallbrook".

If this is correct, on the 4th,

4.18 pm his cell location is 51133 (on the move close to home) - 3 minute call to Chase' phone (lasting until 4.21 pm).
4.25 pm (4 mins later) the house phone makes a call to Joey but it isn't on his call records, so his phone is off and voicemail is left?
4.27 pm (2 mins later) his cell location is 51132 (at home) when 2 x voicemails are retrieved (4 min. and 2 min.) so 4.27 to 4.33 pm. The second voicemail could be the 4.25 house call. The first voicemail could be if the house phone tried calling him at 4.18.
5.05 pm text from Summer's phone to Joey - not on his call records so phone off?
5.47 pm (1 hr 14 mins after the voicemail retrieval) his cell is at 51132 (at home) makes a +/- 3 min. call to Chase' phone.
8.28 pm (2 hrs 40 mins later) his cell location is 51133 (on the move close to home) calls Chase +/- 1 minute, call doesn't connect.

Looking at this and using my interpretations I would say something happened to Joey before 4.25 pm. His phone off after calling Chase, the house phone making a call to him 4 mins after he connects Chase, and then 2 minutes later listening to voicemails at home. Summer must be at home to call him at 4.25, so she's not out. If he's there 2 minutes later there's no need to check the voicemails from her, he can ask what's up as he walks in the door. She texts him half an hour later and his phone is off again but he was there (if he was with his phone) at times either side of her text. He makes no work calls all afternoon.

I speculate 4.18 pm that is Chase getting near the home with Joey's phone. All the calls to Chase' phone are a ruse to try and show Joey is alive and going home, because he is a prolific phone user, voicemails are left. After the 5.48 call Chase' phone runs out of charge. Chase is parked in the driveway by 4.25 and Summer calls Joey to ask what Chase is doing outside. He sits in his truck and plays back the voicemails. After 4.33 pm he knocks on the door and Summer opens the door because she thinks something might have happened to Joey. He's there from 4.33 to just before 8 pm, less than 3 and a half hours. He's killed Summer and the children, put them in clothing containers, has cleaned up, dealt with the dogs and the fence, and then gathers business information from the office for his needs. When he gets back to his phone at 9.32 pm he puts it on charge to call Cathy.

The other thing I don't know is whether charged cell phones ping the tower when a voicemail is left.

View attachment 167925

I too think Joey was incapacitated or dead much earlier and I would guess before 4:18 pm. That would have given CM much more time at the Fallbrook house. Joey was on the phone constantly all day but after the "meeting" there is no record of him actually speaking to anyone. In order for CM to play back the voicemails on Joey's phone did he need a passcode? I have forgotten but I think that was discussed.

 

[Tortoise]

I too think Joey was incapacitated or dead much earlier and I would guess before 4:18 pm. That would have given CM much more time at the Fallbrook house. Joey was on the phone constantly all day but after the "meeting" there is no record of him actually speaking to anyone. In order for CM to play back the voicemails on Joey's phone did he need a passcode? I have forgotten but I think that was discussed.

Ah...pass. I'll save that for someone who knows. Maybe if he did he was with him so much he knew it. I get the feeling he was virtually living with the family in the months before this.