CA - Jonathan Gerrish, Ellen Chung, daughter, 1 & dog, suspicious death hiking area, Aug 2021 #3

[aabbs]

Does anyone know if phones are capable of “dead reckoning”, i.e., even without cell service, being able to record position? I know they can pull attempted calls and texts that didn’t go through due to bad reception (Dutch girls case), but that’s a bit different.

A-GPS doesn’t work without data service, but a GPS radio can still get a fix directly from satellites if it needs to.

 

[Tink60]

You're overestimating the realities of acclimating to heat. Some temperatures and conditions are unsafe to hike in regardless of how accustomed one is to heat. There's a reason no one reported seeing them on the trail and why they weren't found for two days--because no one else was out there. Then add the incline, direct sun, and the fact that the father was carrying the baby, and you have extreme heat plus exertion, making it even more physically taxing.

That heat would be dangerous for any baby regardless of "acclimatization." The dog's fur made it dangerous for him too. One or both of them probably became distressed before the parents.

The water doesn't rule out heat stroke because it's an issue of core body temperature, not hydration. It would also be difficult to carry as much water as all four would have needed to stay hydrated under the conditions.

Them being found together is irrelevant. The baby couldn't get far without assistance. The dog was found tethered to the father. So that narrows "they were all found together" to "the parents were found 30 yards apart." Who knows what happened over the two days between the hike and when they were found.

Just because they were into adventure travel doesn't mean they didn't spend most of their time in air conditioning.

I do find it interesting that LE hasn't said more about the heat, but they also haven't ruled it out. They're obviously waiting for the toxicology results and don't want to jump to any conclusions before they know whether the algae was a factor.

ETA: I haven't seen anyone say LE is being "irresponsible" for not focusing on heat. I do think the NYT article was irresponsible for dismissing the possibility.

Absolutely! I’ve stated this in several other posts. Whether or not these deaths are related to heatstroke or not. I want others to know this can happen to anyone. I live in Arkansas where the heat and humidity equal triple digits in the summer. In my younger years I was very adventurous and was doing outside activities all the time in this extreme weather. I was acclimated to the heat. Always carried lots of water with electrolyte replacement. But one unfortunate day I got heat stroke. It was the exertion and the fact my core body temp got extremely high. Didn’t matter how adventurous, experienced, or acclimated or hydrated I was. I think the false narrative that these things can prevent heat stroke is dangerous.

 

[Runswithdogs]

With all due respect to the family (so tragic), unless they had a gun pointed at their heads, I can see no reason compelling them to take this hike and every reason to abort the hike, if only for the sake of protecting the infant and dog. If not at the start, certainly within the first 30 min MAX. JUST MOO

MOO is the same as yours. I actually can’t imagine this hike being at all enjoyable after the first 30 min. ..to the degree that I actually wondered if someone did have a gun to their head. It had to feel like a death march as soon as it hit 85F.
I am also a bit haunted by the story of another poster maybe back on the first page of their child in a carrier experiencing heat related illness while they were at a zoo. They posted something about not initially realizing their child was experiencing effects because they just thought they were very sleepy & napping & then realized that their drowsiness was something much more serious & got them to an aid station. I feel like to do this hike safely for a child & pet in these temperatures with no shade or water access, you would realistically have to be stopping every 15 min to check on the child & water the dog.

Does anyone know if phones are capable of “dead reckoning”, i.e., even without cell service, being able to record position? I know they can pull attempted calls and texts that didn’t go through due to bad reception (Dutch girls case), but that’s a bit different.

I don’t know the answer to this, but before I used a watch to log my distance while hiking, I would often check the health feature on my iPhone to check mileage/steps. I don’t remember ever needing a signal to check while in route, because most of the places I go don’t have great reception if any. If you do need a signal, it does seem to still record distance & give an accurate daily calculation. It might not be GPS of their actual course, but it could tell investigators the mileage travelled for at least JG that day. If it was give or take 6-8 miles, they likely went the loop route. That being said, I don’t know if other models of phone have this kind of thing built it, but I just assume it’s pretty standard these days.

 

[wary]

With all due respect to the family (so tragic), unless they had a gun pointed at their heads, I can see no reason compelling them to take this hike and every reason to abort the hike, if only for the sake of protecting the infant and dog. If not at the start, certainly within the first 30 min MAX. JUST MOO

I wonder if this is the “this is so mysterious” that LE kept saying. They live in the area; I can see them being simply incapable of understanding why this hike would have been made. (Specially if the footprints did point to it being a long hike. I hope they studied and documented the footprints thoroughly.)

 

[NSamuelle]

I wonder if this is the “this is so mysterious” that LE kept saying. They live in the area; I can see them being simply incapable of understanding why this hike would have been made. (Specially if the footprints did point to it being a long hike. I hope they studied and documented the footprints thoroughly.)

Yeah, the mysterious part is not necessarily “adults, infant and dog die in remote area following a 7 mile hike across rough terrain in 100+ degree temps,” but “two intelligent adults decide to [go on a hike like that].”

 

[armchairagatha]

Anyone know when they might have necropsy results on the dog back? Surely that will indicate what the dog succumbed to (algae toxins, heat etc)? Hard to think that in this age and time they still don’t have any results back 3 weeks after the tragic incident!

 

[RedHaus]

I actually can’t imagine this hike being at all enjoyable after the first 30 min. ..to the degree that I actually wondered if someone did have a gun to their head. It had to feel like a death march as soon as it hit 85F.

RS&BBM
@Runswithdogs, you remind me about an early theory in our discussion. I wonder if LE is considering something along the line of this poor family accidentally getting caught up in a grow-ops in the area while exploring a mine? Remember a poster throwing out early on whether a mountain lion impeded their progress to safety? What if it was a human instead?

 

[LifeIsAMystery]

Based on Insta posts they had had issues previously at altitude and with heat, see the "all the gear and no idear" post, for one example. They pushed through and seemed to think they were better for it, it did not seem to make them more cautious. They also refer to spontaneous hiking trips in addition to the adventure tourism. So I am not sure that either was a particularly cautious person, it's just this time they did not make it back, tragically. MOO.

 

[Recidivist]

Another culprit weighed in deaths of California family found on Sierra National Forest trail

According to a New York Times feature on the family, now lightning strikes have been added into the mix.

Another culprit weighed in deaths of California family found on Sierra National Forest trail (sfgate.com)

 

[Arise]

I didn't mean to imply anyone from the UK wouldn't know not to hike in the heat. A lot of Americans don't even know it. But it could be a factor. If you look at how many heat-related rescues and deaths there are in the western U.S., it's obvious that not everyone has the common sense to avoid it. There was a runner who died of heat stroke farther west in CA. He was from Virginia originally and had a decent amount of outdoor experience too but didn't know better or had a serious lapse in judgment.

Even people who do know better can ignore information that contradicts what they want to see. It's unconscious and everybody does it. There was a book I read once that called it twisting the map. Even actually experienced outdoorspeople get lost, they frequently are in a state of denial about it where they ignore information that indicates they're lost ... they twist the map to fit and in the process get more lost. I think what really distinguishes the experienced is how quickly they acknowledge reality, adjust to the new situation, and the decisions they make after that point.

 

[Arise]

A-GPS doesn’t work without data service, but a GPS radio can still get a fix directly from satellites if it needs to.

GPS works without cellular connectivity but it won't update any remote services. It should record on the device if there are any apps or the phone is configured to collect location data. Alltrails can be used to download the map for an area, record your route offline, and upload once you have connectivity.

 

[gitana1]

I would say, that the only problem going this trail with dog and child was the heat.
So one could conclude that they never experienced such a heat outdoors with child and/or dog.

How long have they lived in California?

 

[gitana1]

Interesting, thanks.

I do think their location on the switchbacks and the position of the river may have kept them somewhat "contained."

Hope the tox screens come back soon. I do think there could have been multiple factors but with ambient temps of 109 recorded in the shade nearby, the direct sun temps in Devil's Gulch likely were too much for a human or canine to tolerate, seems heat would have to have been a factor to some degree. MOO.

If Jon were wearing the baby, say 25 lbs with carrier, and trying to carry Oski, that would be a significant percentage of his own body weight going up a very steep trail with direct sun exposure. I was not surprised he ended up sitting. Like the runner Kreycik, sadly, due to rising temps it did not help and he never got up.

I still don’t think they’re dog could’ve made it past half an hour in those temps, even if they were going downhill. I don’t get this case at all.

 

[LifeIsAMystery]

She was born and grew up there. He had been in CA for many years but was originally from the UK.

 

[wary]

She was born and grew up there. He had been in CA for many years but was originally from the UK.

But I believe she had lived in coastal CA until recently?

 

[gitana1]

LE believe they may have hiked along the river prior to reaching the switchbacks where they were found. One theory is that their dog may have become ill from swimming or drinking from the river. That may have slowed their hike down, especially if JG carried the ill dog. (*speculation)

With the help of the Mariposa sheriff, we were able to create a more accurate map of the suspected hike the family took. And sadly where they were found.”

https://twitter.com/mgafni/status/1428907517019516928?s=20

So if the sheriff helped create that map, there is reason to believe that’s the likely route.

Ugh. They still had a way to go in extreme heat. I don’t know why if they started to suffer, they didn’t go down to the river and wait.

But I still don’t know how their dog made it that far without succumbing. Even downhill. Those are extreme temps.

I cannot fathom why experienced hikers would take a baby and dog out in such heat.

But my vote it heat was heavily involved in how they died.

 

[gitana1]

But I believe she had lived in coastal CA until recently?

Okay. Well even in coastal California, trails can get super hot. They’re usually not right at the water’s edge and can be super oppressive in the summer. This truly baffles me.

 

[formerreddingrunner]

How long have they lived in California?

So, California has many different climates. She was from Orange County, California, which is much more mild in the summertime.

He is from the UK but they both lived for a number of years in the San Franciso Bay Area (her for the last 10 years or so, I believe she attended UC Berkeley for undergrad and he was a software engineer at Google, which I believe is located in Palo Alto, California - at least the headquarters is.

So, they had been living in the Bay Area for quite some time (her 10 years, him unknown years) which is much more mild in the summertime.

What is that saying, "the coldest winter I ever spent was summer in San Francisco" Ha ha.

Seriously though, California is like several different states. The central valley is completely different climate-wise from the coast. In the summertime, when I lived in the central valley, I would not want to be out in the middle of the day for an extended period. Esp. without shade, it would be unbearable, imo. As another person mentioned, even though they had lived in Mariposa for one year, they are probably indoors most the day, in air conditioning. I really wish they could go back in time and not go on that ill-fated hike.

 

[Yellow Rose]

Dangerous toxic algae is found upstream from where Snapchat engineer and his family were found dead | Daily Mail Online

 

[Tiredmomofthree]

The lightening theory posited by @SpideySense is an interesting one. If JG were killed by a ground current strike would that show up on his phone, that is, would there be evidence of damage? Seems like electrical shock would damage the phone in some way. And would it be possible that mom could be killed by the same strike at that distance? I don't think she'd move away from JG, baby, and dog because of the same logic as to why all the water would have used in a heat stroke situation - panic to act. Is there another way to explain the distance?