CA - Off Duty Police Officer shoots man and parents after altercation in Costco, Corona, June 2019

[RANCH]

BBM for focus.

Either you are on duty or not at all times. You can't be somewhat on duty. If an officer is on duty at all times, they should never be drunk, act as a private person with all of the options that go along with it, etc. I just don't think officers can have it both ways. They are always on duty or on duty/off duty when their shift is over as it pertains to discharging their weapons. This was not a situation that he controlled well if he hit the floor, lost consciousness, became alert and started shooting. He put others at risk besides the dead man's family.

I am a highly trained first responder in my community as well as having another profession--- according to my training level, I have a duty to respond. But, I am not a cop and I don't carry a gun. I would be giving emergency care if the scene is safe.

I don't think that anyone should be drunk in public whether they are armed or not. I haven't read that the officer in this case was intoxicated during the shooting. Hopefully we will find that out later.

I think that it's possible for this officer to have most of his police powers even when off duty.

"Individuals employed as police officers typically carry their police powers 24 hours a day in their jurisdiction, whether they're on the job or not," according to a recent ThinkProgress report. "That includes the power to arrest, use force, and the power to shoot." This is especially true if officers are working a second private security job.

Legal Authority of Off-Duty Cops

 

[kaen]

I don't think that anyone should be drunk in public whether they are armed or not. I haven't read that the officer in this case was intoxicated during the shooting. Hopefully we will find that out later.

I think that it's possible for this officer to have most of his police powers even when off duty.



Legal Authority of Off-Duty Cops

Yes, and....

"And noted Orange County criminal attorney John Barnett told the Orange County Register that police officers "follow the same rules for gun use whether they are on duty or off." However, some gun possession, use, or shootings could violate departmental policies that require officers to attempt de-escalate confrontations with citizens before brandishing or using their weapons." From the same source.

Makes me wonder what the departmental policies are...

 

[BayouBelle_LA]

He Was NOT A Police Officer. Replace each mention of the words "police officer" with "Citizen." He had no uniform, was not on duty, he was an ordinary citizen shopping at Costco. Why should his occupation have Anything to do with his actions? French had as much of an idea that he was a cop, as the Killer had that French was mentally disabled.

Does a doctor quit being a doctor when he's off duty? Is he just a citizen and not a doctor? It's the same with a police officer. He is still a police officer even when off duty.

 

[RANCH]

Yes, and....

"And noted Orange County criminal attorney John Barnett told the Orange County Register that police officers "follow the same rules for gun use whether they are on duty or off." However, some gun possession, use, or shootings could violate departmental policies that require officers to attempt de-escalate confrontations with citizens before brandishing or using their weapons." From the same source.

Makes me wonder what the departmental policies are...

That could be a factor in this case. When we get the needed details it will become much clearer. JMO

 

[RANCH]

Does a doctor quit being a doctor when he's off duty? Is he just a citizen and not a doctor? It's the same with a police officer. He is still a police officer even when off duty.

If a doctor takes off his white coat does he stop being a doctor? Of course not. JMO

 

[kaen]

Responding to my own post wondering about LAPD's de-escalation policy.

"The new policy reads: 'Officers shall attempt to control an incident by using time, distance, communications and available resources in an effort to de-escalate the situation, whenever it is safe and reasonable to do so.'

If an officer doesn't follow this policy in the lead up to a shooting or other use of force, he could be subject to discipline."

The five-member civilian Los Angeles Police Commission Tuesday approved an amendment to the LAPD’s use of force policy that requires officers to try to use de-escalation tactics to avoid shooting suspects.

.....


3. The Los Angeles Police Protective League – the union that represents rank and file cops – is endorsing the new policy.

In the past, the union has expressed concerns about placing more emphasis on de-escalation. It famously opposed a decision by Chief Beck to create a "Preservation of Life" award for officers who were able to avoid using deadly force in situations where they legally could have used it. The league argued the award would lead to officers hesitating in life or death situations.

But the league, which the department was obligated to consult about the policy change under union rules, issued a statement Tuesday supporting it: "We worked hard to formalize these values into a department policy that will provide for the ability of police officers to protect their personal safety and the safety of innocent bystanders."

5 things about the LAPD’s new de-escalation policy

 

[kaen]

Does a doctor quit being a doctor when he's off duty? Is he just a citizen and not a doctor? It's the same with a police officer. He is still a police officer even when off duty.

A doctor and an officer are not the same in the least. A doctor is rendering assistance. If the officer is rendering assistance, he/she has an obligation (under LAPD guidelines) to de-escalate the situation. A police officer doesn't have carte blanche to shoot in a supermarket without regard to the safety of others. Very different situations--- rendering help and shooting at a person.

From my understanding, a doctor doesn't have to provide aid despite their oath.

 

[kaen]

If a doctor takes off his white coat does he stop being a doctor? Of course not. JMO

Can a Doctor or Physician be held Liable for giving Medical Treatment while Off-Duty?

First of all, a doctor or physician must owe a duty to their patient before they can be held liable for giving medical treatment while off-duty. In the U.S., a doctor has no affirmative duty to provide medical assistance to injured persons if they have not established a special relationship with the individual.

So, for example, if a doctor is off-duty having a meal in a restaurant and a person is injured, they do not actually have a duty to assist that person. If the doctor continues eating their meal, the injured person does not have a medical malpractice claim against the doctor, even if they are harmed. This is because no special relationship has formed yet between the injured person and the doctor.

Liability of an Off-Duty Doctor or Physician | LegalMatch

 

[RANCH]

A doctor and an officer are not the same in the least. A doctor is rendering assistance. If the officer is rendering assistance, he/she has an obligation (under LAPD guidelines) to de-escalate the situation. A police officer doesn't have carte blanche to shoot in a supermarket without regard to the safety of others. Very different situations--- rendering help and shooting at a person.

From my understanding, a doctor doesn't have to provide aid despite their oath.

The quote you posted above does not say that an officer is "obligated" to de-escalate the situation.

It say's this. BBM

Officers shall attempt to control an incident by using time, distance, communications and available resources in an effort to de-escalate the situation, whenever it is safe and reasonable to do so.'

 

[RANCH]

Can a Doctor or Physician be held Liable for giving Medical Treatment while Off-Duty?

First of all, a doctor or physician must owe a duty to their patient before they can be held liable for giving medical treatment while off-duty. In the U.S., a doctor has no affirmative duty to provide medical assistance to injured persons if they have not established a special relationship with the individual.

So, for example, if a doctor is off-duty having a meal in a restaurant and a person is injured, they do not actually have a duty to assist that person. If the doctor continues eating their meal, the injured person does not have a medical malpractice claim against the doctor, even if they are harmed. This is because no special relationship has formed yet between the injured person and the doctor.

Liability of an Off-Duty Doctor or Physician | LegalMatch

You are going way off track here.

I'm not saying an off duty officer or an off duty doctor has to engage in their profession at all times.

But they sure can if they want too. JMO

 

[kaen]

The quote you posted above does not say that an officer is "obligated" to de-escalate the situation.

It say's this. BBM

Officers shall attempt to control an incident by using time, distance, communications and available resources in an effort to de-escalate the situation, whenever it is safe and reasonable to do so.'

This is the policy for on-duty officers and if they don't attempt to de-escalate they may face discipline.

 

[kaen]

You are going way off track here.

I'm not saying an off duty officer or an off duty doctor has to engage in their profession at all times.

But they sure can if they want too. JMO

With a decision to act within their profession, they must adhere to policies.

 

[RANCH]

This is the policy for on-duty officers and if they don't attempt to de-escalate they may face discipline.

Yes, if " it's safe and reasonable to do so."

It doesn't say that in all circumstances de-escalation must be attempted.

I think I've made my point. If you still disagree then it's probably time to agree to disagree and move on. JMO

 

[RANCH]

With a decision to act within their profession, they must adhere to policies.

I'm assuming you are talking about doctors liability problems. I really thinks that's off topic.

 

[Cool Cats]

D

 

[kaen]

I'm assuming you are talking about doctors liability problems. I really thinks that's off topic.

If people are going to equate doctors and officers. Then, it is not off topic. Doctors and officers can choose to not act. If they act, they must adhere to policies put forth by their state, professional practices and their departments. I quoted that post to say--yes, an off-duty doctor is off-duty unless they choose to act--- key word being choose.

 

[SeesSeas]

Addressing cops' confusion over 'the public duty doctrine'
Addressing cops' confusion over 'the public duty doctrine'
Proper training on the principles of the public duty doctrine and how it applies to police officers is essential to avoid liability on the part of the department and officers
Jan 5, 2012
The so-called public duty doctrine provides that “absent a special relationship between the governmental entity and the injured individual, the governmental entity will not be liable for injury to an individual... the governmental entity owes a duty to the public in general. The doctrine has been commonly described by the oxymoron, ‘duty to all, duty to none’.”1
[...]
In Our Nature to Help
While neither the California Constitution’s oath of office, nor the International Association of Chiefs of Police model oath of honor8, suggest that officers have duties other than the support and defense of the Constitution, and the maintenance of character, integrity, and public trust, no officer wants to see innocent individuals victimized or suffer harm of any sort.

One duty-dilemma issue, for example, may be the concern of contracting a fatal disease from performing CPR on a subject. Indeed, this is a real concern as just this past March, a deputy in Florida died five years after having contracted a virus while conducting CPR on an infant.9 Officers must discern the pros and cons of taking action in such a case to balance this unlikely tragic outcome against the more likely heartbreaking consequence of failing to act in a timely manner.

An officer’s misconception of his duty owed to the individual, however, may cause that officer to believe he has no choice but to provide assistance in the matter. While the officer is under no legal obligation to render aid to any one individual, once that officer decides to render aid to a victim, a special relationship may be established that produces a duty to an individual.
[...]

 

[RANCH]

If people are going to equate doctors and officers. Then, it is not off topic. Doctors and officers can choose to not act. If they act, they must adhere to policies put forth by their state, professional practices and their departments. I quoted that post to say--yes, an off-duty doctor is off-duty unless they choose to act--- key word being choose.

Okay. You haven't posted anything that refutes my post that when a doctor takes off his white coat he is still a doctor.

Any possible liability for acting as doctor when off duty is irrelevant. He or she is still a doctor.

I think I done with this subject.

 

[Cool Cats]

Parents of man shot dead by off-duty cop in Costco slowly recovering, attorney says
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Thank God they are going to make it! Why did the parents get shot? How many shots were fired? Sorry I need to catch up!

Parents of man shot dead by off-duty cop in Costco slowly recovering

"Russell is fighting an infection and pneumonia, making his recovery slower than expected," said the French's attorney, Dale Galipo. "Paola still has some complications with her wounds, which will require additional surgeries."

 

[kaen]

Parents of man shot dead by off-duty cop in Costco slowly recovering, attorney says
*****************************************************************
Thank God they are going to make it! Why did the parents get shot? How many shots were fired? Sorry I need to catch up!

Parents of man shot dead by off-duty cop in Costco slowly recovering, attorney says

So happy to read this news. I am sorry for their loss, though.