Still Missing CA - Orson & Orrin West (3&4), California City, 21 Dec 2020 #5

DNA Solves
DNA Solves
DNA Solves

New Posts

Status
Not open for further replies.
MsBetsy said:
Yes, videos are not always clear evidence. Police have to analyze and "investigate" the video evidence itself.
In the video of the family leaving in the van on the 19th, Orson and Orrin can't be seen, but I still think there's a chance they were obscured by the fence.

I'm not sure what's behind the house. I think there are empty lots on either side. To the left behind the gate may be the lot TW was gathering wood from.

I think I read that the desert was a short distance away, but not so close that they could have walked there so fast and disappeared so quickly. I asked early on if anyone knew the exact distance but I'm not sure if anyone answered. I do know that was one of the first areas searched.

Imo
Click to expand...
House directly behind them with a pool.

Google Maps
 
MsBetsy said:
Well, it became an inappropriate "joke" for a long time. There's nothing funny about mocking a mother's fear after discovering her baby gone. That poor woman.
Click to expand...

To be fair, most folks using that as a joke, never believed it actually happened in the first place.
It was more a mockery of someone making up a ludicrous excuse, or so, many thought.
Now that we know it actually did happen, well, the jokes really don't age well.

jmo
 
Ontario Mom said:
To be fair, most folks using that as a joke, never believed it actually happened in the first place.
It was more a mockery of someone making up a ludicrous excuse, or so, many thought.
Now that we know it actually did happen, well, the jokes really don't age well.

jmo
Click to expand...
She was cleared back in the eighties so that's a long time to believe it didn't really happen. It just goes to show how powerful the court of public opinion can be.
 
MsBetsy said:
She was cleared back in the eighties so that's a long time to believe it didn't really happen. It just goes to show how powerful the court of public opinion can be.
Click to expand...
I didn't realize it was that long ago she was cleared, I thought it was much later.
In any case, I know I didn't believe it (at first) and yes, the court of public opinion is incredibly powerful, whether right or wrong.
 
The Chief expressed in his recent interview with Perla Shaheen that the surrounding desert area was searched extensively by multiple LE agents/agencies, I believe he said they searched within a 5 mile radius of the Cal City home, and that they also utilized some specialized, impressive high tech equipment in their desert search as well. He sounds confident the boys are not in the desert. He also reconfirmed they’ve searched every nook and cranny of the Cal City home and backyard.
I trust the Chief/LE since they are the trained, experienced professionals investigating this case, and they know a whole he!! of alot more about investigating crime as well as the known facts in this case, than joe public, lol.
It’s great the public wants to help, searching, calling in *useful* tips etc., but they need to also let LE do their job and conduct their investigation without wasting LE valuable time and resources i.e., calling the tip line to tell LE what they’re doing wrong, and how they should be doing their job etc, etc. Like the Chief said, that’s just not productive.

So after several, extensive searches of all the places mentioned above, sounds like LE is confident O & O aren’t in the home, backyard, or desert. Chief went on to say in same recent interview with Perla, that the boys had to have left with “adult assistance”. Which based on the AP’s account of what happened on 12/21/20, if it’s true/accurate, leaves only one other possibility, that O & O were abducted from their yard or neighborhood during the time TW went inside the house while he had been outside with the boys throwing wood.
So putting aside the neighbor’s video surveillance since the time the video was taken might be in question, and given cameras may not have picked up certain things, including the boys for whatever number of reasons. Too many variables with the cameras, ok I can buy/understand that. However, what I do have significant trouble buying/understanding is why the AP’s haven’t made any urgent public pleas in the past two months, holding up recent pictures of the boys, begging for someone to return their babies to them. When anyone is abducted, let alone babies, it is a life or death situation and time is of the essence, period. The clock starts ticking moment 1 and the single, most important thing to do is to get the word out immediately. It doesn’t matter if you are stoic, private people, camera shy etc., as IMO, none of that matters, nor are they acceptable reasons to not put out urgent plea for your babies whose lives literally hang in the balance. Why? Because there are other options to get the word out. For instance, appointing a spokesperson to go out in front of the camera and speak on your behalf. If you don’t know or can’t find anyone willing to speak on your behalf, then you simply issue a written urgent plea/statement(s), similar to the statement the extended family put out early on, (although I’d expect the AP’s statement to be worded differently, and with a more urgent tone), in which the extended family made a point to say something to the effect their statement wasn’t made with, or on behalf of the AP’s, which is telling in and of itself.
At any rate, at the very very least, I’d expect the AP to have been issuing written urgent plea(s), with recent pictures of O & O attached, if they are not comfortable getting in front of cameras. (Their media appearance 2 days after they reported the boys missing, which IMO they were pressured into because people were outside their home wondering what happened to the boys and why they hadn’t spoken up yet, was not an immediate, urgent plea by any stretch of the imagination, IMO).
It is a huge red flag considering we are talking about tiny, defenseless 3 & 4 year old babies who would be absolutely petrified in the company of strangers doing god only knows what with/to them. It doesn’t matter that it’s now 2 months into the boy’s disappearance either. They haven’t been found yet, so there’s still every reason to be issuing pleas and searching for them until they are found. I have trouble giving any parent whose babies/children are missing a pass on this. Heck, we’ve seen strangers boots on the ground searching for O & O, plea-ing for O & O, organizing and attending vigils for O & O, organizing and offering up rewards, putting up billboards etc., etc. I don’t remember seeing, hearing, or reading anything about the AP being involved/helping in any form or fashion in any of the aforementioned endeavors/efforts to find their precious babies, Orrin & Orson.

Personally, I find it very unusual to not be hearing about it if they have been/are pleading and out searching for O & O considering all the community focus, as well as the true crime community, YouTube etc., focus on the case, but hey,
Maybe the AP are out there somewhere plea-ing for their babies.
Maybe the AP are out there somewhere pounding the pavement handing out flyers with recent pictures of their babies on them.
Maybe the AP are out there somewhere searching for their babies leaving no stone unturned.
Maybe we’ll find out at some point that the AP were doing all of these things under the radar??
That’s alot of Maybe’s surrounding parents’ efforts in a missing babies case, actually too many, for my comfort level at least.
Perhaps my expectations are too high, but as it stands right now, by all outward appearances, I’ve known and seen people with lost pets who’ve shown more urgency/put forth more efforts to find their missing cat, dog, fish etc.

I’m not accusing the AP of anything, just stating the obvious and my befuddlement by their seeming lack of urgency to find their babies. Sorry for the long ramblings, this feels like a good place to stop.

Where are these precious boys?

All of the above is IMHOO.
 
Last edited:
fcavanaugh said:
The Chief expressed in his recent interview with Perla Shaheen that the surrounding desert area was searched extensively by multiple LE agents/agencies, I believe he said they searched within a 5 mile radius of the Cal City home, and that they also utilized some specialized, impressive high tech equipment in their desert search as well. He sounds confident the boys are not in the desert. He also reconfirmed they’ve searched every nook and cranny of the Cal City home and backyard.
I trust the Chief/LE since they are the trained, experienced professionals investigating this case, and they know a whole he!! of alot more about investigating crime as well as the known facts in this case, than joe public, lol.
It’s great the public wants to help, searching, calling in *useful* tips etc., but they need to also let LE do their job and conduct their investigation without wasting LE valuable time and resources i.e., calling the tip line to tell LE what they’re doing wrong, and how they should be doing their job etc, etc. Like the Chief said, that’s just not productive.

So after several, extensive searches of all the places mentioned above, sounds like LE is confident O & O aren’t in the home, backyard, or desert. Chief went on to say in same recent interview with Perla, that the boys had to have left with “adult assistance”. Which based on the AP’s account of what happened on 12/21/20, if it’s true/accurate, leaves only one other possibility, that O & O were abducted from their yard or neighborhood during the time TW went inside the house while he had been outside with the boys throwing wood.
So putting aside the neighbor’s video surveillance since the time the video was taken might be in question, and given cameras may not have picked up certain things, including the boys for whatever number of reasons. Too many variables with the cameras, ok I can buy/understand that. However, what I do have significant trouble buying/understanding is why the AP’s haven’t made any urgent public pleas in the past two months, holding up recent pictures of the boys, begging for someone to return their babies to them. When anyone is abducted, let alone babies, it is a life or death situation and time is of the essence, period. The clock starts ticking moment 1 and the single, most important thing to do is to get the word out immediately. It doesn’t matter if you are stoic, private people, camera shy etc., as IMO, none of that matters, nor are they acceptable reasons to not put out urgent plea for your babies whose lives literally hang in the balance. Why? Because there are other options to get the word out. For instance, appointing a spokesperson to go out in front of the camera and speak on your behalf. If you don’t know or can’t find anyone willing to speak on your behalf, then you simply issue a written urgent plea/statement(s), similar to the statement the extended family put out early on, (although I’d expect the AP’s statement to be worded differently, and with a more urgent tone), in which the extended family made a point to say something to the effect their statement wasn’t on behalf of the AP’s, which says a lot in and of itself.
At any rate, at the very very least, I’d expect the AP to have been issuing written urgent plea(s), with recent pictures of O & O attached, if they are not comfortable getting in front of cameras. (Their media appearance 2 days after they reported the boys missing, which IMO they were pressured into because people were outside their home wondering what happened to the boys and why they hadn’t spoken up yet, was not an immediate, urgent plea by any stretch of the imagination, IMO).
It is a huge red flag considering we are talking about tiny, defenseless 3 & 4 year old babies who would be absolutely petrified in the company of strangers doing god only knows what with/to them. It doesn’t matter that it’s now 2 months into the boy’s disappearance either. They haven’t been found yet, so there’s still every reason to be issuing pleas and searching for them until they are found. I have trouble giving any parent whose babies/children are missing a pass on this. Heck, we’ve seen strangers boots on the ground searching for O & O, plea-ing for O & O, organizing and attending vigils for O & O, organizing and offering up rewards, putting up billboards etc., etc. I don’t remember seeing, hearing, or reading anything about the AP being involved/helping in any form or fashion in any of the aforementioned endeavors/efforts to find their precious babies, Orrin & Orson.

Personally, I find it very unusual to not be hearing about it if they have been/are pleading and out searching for O & O considering all the community focus, as well as the true crime community, YouTube etc., focus on the case, but hey,
Maybe the AP are out there somewhere plea-ing for their babies.
Maybe the AP are out there somewhere pounding the pavement handing out flyers with recent pictures of their babies on them.
Maybe the AP are out there somewhere searching for their babies leaving no stone unturned.
Maybe we’ll find out at some point that the AP were doing all of these things under the radical??
That’s alot of Maybe’s surrounding parents in a missing babies case, for my comfort level at least.
Perhaps my expectations are too high, but as it stands right now, by all outward appearances, I’ve known and seen people with lost pets show more urgency/efforts to find their missing cat, dog, fish etc.

I’m not accusing the AP of anything, just stating the obvious and my befuddlement by their seeming lack of urgency to find their babies. Sorry for the long ramblings, this feels like a good place to stop.

Where are these precious boys?

All of the above is IMHOO.
Click to expand...
Great, well written post!
 
fcavanaugh said:
The Chief expressed in his recent interview with Perla Shaheen that the surrounding desert area was searched extensively by multiple LE agents/agencies, I believe he said they searched within a 5 mile radius of the Cal City home, and that they also utilized some specialized, impressive high tech equipment in their desert search as well. He sounds confident the boys are not in the desert. He also reconfirmed they’ve searched every nook and cranny of the Cal City home and backyard.
I trust the Chief/LE since they are the trained, experienced professionals investigating this case, and they know a whole he!! of alot more about investigating crime as well as the known facts in this case, than joe public, lol.
It’s great the public wants to help, searching, calling in *useful* tips etc., but they need to also let LE do their job and conduct their investigation without wasting LE valuable time and resources i.e., calling the tip line to tell LE what they’re doing wrong, and how they should be doing their job etc, etc. Like the Chief said, that’s just not productive.

So after several, extensive searches of all the places mentioned above, sounds like LE is confident O & O aren’t in the home, backyard, or desert. Chief went on to say in same recent interview with Perla, that the boys had to have left with “adult assistance”. Which based on the AP’s account of what happened on 12/21/20, if it’s true/accurate, leaves only one other possibility, that O & O were abducted from their yard or neighborhood during the time TW went inside the house while he had been outside with the boys throwing wood.
So putting aside the neighbor’s video surveillance since the time the video was taken might be in question, and given cameras may not have picked up certain things, including the boys for whatever number of reasons. Too many variables with the cameras, ok I can buy/understand that. However, what I do have significant trouble buying/understanding is why the AP’s haven’t made any urgent public pleas in the past two months, holding up recent pictures of the boys, begging for someone to return their babies to them. When anyone is abducted, let alone babies, it is a life or death situation and time is of the essence, period. The clock starts ticking moment 1 and the single, most important thing to do is to get the word out immediately. It doesn’t matter if you are stoic, private people, camera shy etc., as IMO, none of that matters, nor are they acceptable reasons to not put out urgent plea for your babies whose lives literally hang in the balance. Why? Because there are other options to get the word out. For instance, appointing a spokesperson to go out in front of the camera and speak on your behalf. If you don’t know or can’t find anyone willing to speak on your behalf, then you simply issue a written urgent plea/statement(s), similar to the statement the extended family put out early on, (although I’d expect the AP’s statement to be worded differently, and with a more urgent tone), in which the extended family made a point to say something to the effect their statement wasn’t made with, or on behalf of the AP’s, which is telling in and of itself.
At any rate, at the very very least, I’d expect the AP to have been issuing written urgent plea(s), with recent pictures of O & O attached, if they are not comfortable getting in front of cameras. (Their media appearance 2 days after they reported the boys missing, which IMO they were pressured into because people were outside their home wondering what happened to the boys and why they hadn’t spoken up yet, was not an immediate, urgent plea by any stretch of the imagination, IMO).
It is a huge red flag considering we are talking about tiny, defenseless 3 & 4 year old babies who would be absolutely petrified in the company of strangers doing god only knows what with/to them. It doesn’t matter that it’s now 2 months into the boy’s disappearance either. They haven’t been found yet, so there’s still every reason to be issuing pleas and searching for them until they are found. I have trouble giving any parent whose babies/children are missing a pass on this. Heck, we’ve seen strangers boots on the ground searching for O & O, plea-ing for O & O, organizing and attending vigils for O & O, organizing and offering up rewards, putting up billboards etc., etc. I don’t remember seeing, hearing, or reading anything about the AP being involved/helping in any form or fashion in any of the aforementioned endeavors/efforts to find their precious babies, Orrin & Orson.

Personally, I find it very unusual to not be hearing about it if they have been/are pleading and out searching for O & O considering all the community focus, as well as the true crime community, YouTube etc., focus on the case, but hey,
Maybe the AP are out there somewhere plea-ing for their babies.
Maybe the AP are out there somewhere pounding the pavement handing out flyers with recent pictures of their babies on them.
Maybe the AP are out there somewhere searching for their babies leaving no stone unturned.
Maybe we’ll find out at some point that the AP were doing all of these things under the radar??
That’s alot of Maybe’s surrounding parents’ efforts in a missing babies case, actually too many for my comfort level.
Perhaps my expectations are too high, but as it stands right now, by all outward appearances, I’ve known and seen people with lost pets who’ve shown more urgency/put forth more efforts to find their missing cat, dog, fish etc.

I’m not accusing the AP of anything, just stating the obvious and my befuddlement by their seeming lack of urgency to find their babies. Sorry for the long ramblings, this feels like a good place to stop.

Where are these precious boys?

All of the above is IMHOO.
Click to expand...
You make some great points IMO. Some miscellaneous thoughts in no particular order...

Given the length of time the boys have been missing I'm not optimistic that they'll be found alive.

The parents have had time to speak out yet have chosen not to - IMO any fear they may have had prior that kept them in the shadows should have taken second place to the desire to find their children by now.

Statistically, the reporting party in missing cases are often found to be the perps. I'm not saying it's the case here but the apparent lack of concern for Orson's and Orrin's well-being during the approximate 2 months since they disappeared cannot be overlooked nor can the lack of the parents becoming involved in search efforts or at the very least efforts to keep the case in the public's eye.

Compare to say, Ember Graham's mom or Landen Hiott, these people seem to have written the boys off. Why?

And, stepping a bit sideways, I can't help but question the efficacy of the sniffer dog in terms of not hitting on the boys being outside. IMO it's possible the dog simply didn't detect their smell due to variables such as temperature, wind, humidity, etc. So while it seems like the boys were never at the CC home I don't think we can 100% discount the possibility that they were. IOW, there remains a myriad of scenarios.

Finally, IMO LE has way more forensic evidence than we're aware of. Read the affidavit from Gannon's case to see how much was not initially revealed. At least I hope it's true here. All MOO.
 
MsMarple said:
You make some great points IMO. Some miscellaneous thoughts in no particular order...

Given the length of time the boys have been missing I'm not optimistic that they'll be found alive.

The parents have had time to speak out yet have chosen not to - IMO any fear they may have had prior that kept them in the shadows should have taken second place to the desire to find their children by now.

Statistically, the reporting party in missing cases are often found to be the perps. I'm not saying it's the case here but the apparent lack of concern for Orson's and Orrin's well-being during the approximate 2 months since they disappeared cannot be overlooked nor can the lack of the parents becoming involved in search efforts or at the very least efforts to keep the case in the public's eye.

Compare to say, Ember Graham's mom or Landen Hiott, these people seem to have written the boys off. Why?

And, stepping a bit sideways, I can't help but question the efficacy of the sniffer dog in terms of not hitting on the boys being outside. IMO it's possible the dog simply didn't detect their smell due to variables such as temperature, wind, humidity, etc. So while it seems like the boys were never at the CC home I don't think we can 100% discount the possibility that they were. IOW, there remains a myriad of scenarios.

Finally, IMO LE has way more forensic evidence than we're aware of. Read the affidavit from Gannon's case to see how much was not initially revealed. At least I hope it's true here. All MOO.
Click to expand...
Excellent post @MsMarple. I 100% agree with all of your thoughts.

IMHO
 
Fidobell said:
I searched longer for my missing cat , and asked neighbours I didnt know . Tw Gazing into the distance waiting for police go arrive was not what I call searching .
Click to expand...
That’s what bothers me too. The lack of concern and urgency. I can’t imagine stop looking for a lost pet and asking for help to find said pet, let alone a lost child.
 
Lusitana said:
That’s what bothers me too. The lack of concern and urgency. I can’t imagine stop looking for a lost pet and asking for help to find said pet, let alone a lost child.
Click to expand...
I know everyone is different, and reacts differently. But you are right, there is no frantic or frenzied behavior that "typically" comes when a child is missing. Every parent I have ever seen that has a missing child (even a temporarily missing one) has a degree of frenzied, frantic, and has that God awful look of anguish on their faces. When I look at the tape of the AP's being interviewed over and over, I *do* see some anguish in JW's face/her brows. (From the little we can see of their faces). Her face is expressing anguish, and she does sound anxious. TW, on the other hand, sounds like he reciting something he memorized. Maybe that's how he reacts under pressure...hard to say not knowing them.

I hope JW is working closely with LE, because I think she is our best chance of finding these children.

Amateur opinion and speculation
 
rosesfromangels said:
I know everyone is different, and reacts differently. But you are right, there is no frantic or frenzied behavior that "typically" comes when a child is missing. Every parent I have ever seen that has a missing child (even a temporarily missing one) has a degree of frenzied, frantic, and has that God awful look of anguish on their faces. When I look at the tape of the AP's being interviewed over and over, I *do* see some anguish in JW's face/her brows. (From the little we can see of their faces). Her face is expressing anguish, and she does sound anxious. TW, on the other hand, sounds like he reciting something he memorized. Maybe that's how he reacts under pressure...hard to say not knowing them.

I hope JW is working closely with LE, because I think she is our best chance of finding these children.

Amateur opinion and speculation
Click to expand...
But the issue to me is actually before all of that, before the interview. My issue is with the first moments when they realized they were missing. Nobody saw these two running around like crazy people yelling the kids’ names, they didn’t knock on any doors, nothing. Why? That’s so strange. Those neighbors should’ve known right away that two kids were missing and they didn’t. Very odd.
 
NCHydrangea said:
Yeah. My problem with the video is that it starts too late IMO. I’m sure LE has the entire time period but the video seems to start right before he started hittin all the corners.
Click to expand...
Just jumping off your post.

What is alarming regardless of what is seen or not seen in the video from the neighbour is the lack of activity by TW and JW, JW not even leaving the house to search? No frantically running to neighbour’s homes to get them to check their backyards?? This is a huge, bright, waving red flag. It is NOT normal behaviour from a mother or a father. JW was likely “putting on a show” for the cameras while “hitting corners” :rolleyes:. They didn’t have the brains to think they needed to put on a bigger show of the hysteria that overcomes parents when two little ones vanish when it’s cold and dark.

Although people react differently in the media spotlight, their lack of REAL emotion and hysteria the night the boys went missing is what tells the story here. They KNOW what happened to Orrin and Orson but they are not going to tell. If LE can’t put together enough evidence to charge them, they will get away with it. I hope the Chief is just pretending they have nothing. JMHO.
 
susiQ said:
Just jumping off your post.

What is alarming regardless of what is seen or not seen in the video from the neighbour is the lack of activity by TW and JW, JW not even leaving the house to search? No frantically running to neighbour’s homes to get them to check their backyards?? This is a huge, bright, waving red flag. It is NOT normal behaviour from a mother or a father. JW was likely “putting on a show” for the cameras while “hitting corners” :rolleyes:. They didn’t have the brains to think they needed to put on a bigger show of the hysteria that overcomes parents when two little ones vanish when it’s cold and dark.

Although people react differently in the media spotlight, their lack of REAL emotion and hysteria the night the boys went missing is what tells the story here. They KNOW what happened to Orrin and Orson but they are not going to tell. If LE can’t put together enough evidence to charge them, they will get away with it. I hope the Chief is just pretending they have nothing. JMHO.
Click to expand...
I agree @susiQ.
As for the bolded, IMO this cannot be overstated. Remember, the other 4 children were at Grandma’s on vacation, so it’s not like JW had to remain inside the home to watch their other children while TW searched, so yeah, IMO there’s really no excuse for why JW didn’t bolt out of the home immediately yelling the boys names, frantically searching, knocking on neighbor’s doors etc., like any normal Mother would react if their babies suddenly vanished in the cold, dark night.

IMHO
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

DNASolves

Who is DeKalb County John Doe (2022)?

Members online

... and 147 more.
Total: 758 (members: 148, guests: 610)

Online statistics

Members online
148
Guests online
610
Total visitors
758
Totals may include hidden visitors.

Forum statistics

Threads
603,536
Messages
18,158,205
Members
231,762
Latest member
KarmasReal~
Back
Top