CA - Rebecca Zahau Nalepa - suicide or murder? #11

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Did they have 20 detectives on the scene? If so, they can't be accused of not doing their job. I'm going to search to see if I can find how many were on the scene, and from which departments.

The number off LE officers there, has nothing to do with how well they did their job. It is now rumored, with witness statements, that DS was allowed to enter the house prior to the investigation. What occurred in the early part of the investigation, that someone would be let in the house (if true), that an officer would leave a footprint at the scene, obviously prior to taking photographs, and even though that many officers were available, they didn't control pictures of Rebecca to be stopped by at least placing a tent/tarp above her.

Doesn't seem like thorough police work to me. Doesn't seem as if they were intent on gathering evidence either. Were there footprints on the rug, that should have been photographed? Were there other handprints on the door, prior to LE touching the door? Who closed the balcony doors? Did they destroy fingerprints by closing the door?

Roo many questions that were not, but should have been answered. All of this as stated in my signature is imho only.
 
Self-bonding can be done. I'm not saying, of course, that it was done in RZ's case, but it isn't impossible. I posted some links with pictures from a breath play link on wiki yesterday. I also posted some comments and a link from Jezebel from people who knew about breath play and said that RZ's type of bondage, including the T-shirt about her neck, reminded them of breath play.

And here is a blurb that explains about self-binding. Again, I'm not saying it was done in RZ's case, but merely pointing out that it is not an impossibility.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-bondage

(Emboldening mine)

I am fairly certain the mods asked us not to include discussion of self bondage as it is not known if Rebecca was actively doing, or had done that.

What leads me to conclude from this is that someone was very experienced with ropes and the use of rope. Whether or not it was Rebecca is a total unknown.
 
The number off LE officers there, has nothing to do with how well they did their job. It is now rumored, with witness statements, that DS was allowed to enter the house prior to the investigation. What occurred in the early part of the investigation, that someone would be let in the house (if true), that an officer would leave a footprint at the scene, obviously prior to taking photographs, and even though that many officers were available, they didn't control pictures of Rebecca to be stopped by at least placing a tent/tarp above her.

Doesn't seem like thorough police work to me. Doesn't seem as if they were intent on gathering evidence either. Were there footprints on the rug, that should have been photographed? Were there other handprints on the door, prior to LE touching the door? Who closed the balcony doors? Did they destroy fingerprints by closing the door?

Roo many questions that were not, but should have been answered. All of this as stated in my signature is imho only.

Do you have a link to the claim that DS was in the house prior to an investigation?
 
I am fairly certain the mods asked us not to include discussion of self bondage as it is not known if Rebecca was actively doing, or had done that.

What leads me to conclude from this is that someone was very experienced with ropes and the use of rope. Whether or not it was Rebecca is a total unknown.

I've read through older threads and have seen it mentioned often. I haven't mentioned that RZ was engaged in sex play once. I have said that through these links it shows how commonly people can engage in self-bondage and that those who have knowledge of it are discussing it on Jezebel. I was not the first to post the Jezebel link nor have the other Jezebel links been removed.
 
Me too, IWK. IMO, the average person would be tying themselves in much more elementary way. I know others have argued that that the bindings are nothing special, but I disagree. I have to say that they are unique to the situation--I doubt that those specific kinds of bindings or anything as elaborate as the ones used on Rebecca are routinely seen in suicides. IMO

How are they special? It is just a figure 8 looping from one wrist to another and bringing the rope through so when held in the hand it can tighten the rope.



Imo
 
Do you have a link to the claim that DS was in the house prior to an investigation?

I stated it was rumor and that if true, was in parenthesis. No link that I can post at this time unfortunately. I am trying to have this confirmed and if it is, will ask the person who does so, to post.
 
I've read through older threads and have seen it mentioned often. I haven't mentioned that RZ was engaged in sex play once. I have said that through these links it shows how commonly people can engage in self-bondage and that those who have knowledge of it are discussing it on Jezebel. I was not the first to post the Jezebel link nor have the other Jezebel links been removed.

So if you are not saying she was involved in 'sex play', how would she have known how to self bind?:waitasec:

Mods did ask for this type of conversation to be ended, due to no public knowledge of 'sex play' having been proven.
 
So if you are not saying she was involved in 'sex play', how would she have known how to self bind?:waitasec:

Mods did ask for this type of conversation to be ended, due to no public knowledge of 'sex play' having been proven.

I didn't say she was involved in sex play nor have I ever inferred it. I showed photos of self bondage to show that it wasn't far fetched that people can and have managed to bind themselves in ways that are impossible or near impossible to escape. I posted that because some are claiming no one has ever tied themselves up in that fashion before. Those photos are proof that people do, and have, tied themselves up in that manner for whatever reason.

IMO
 
I didn't say she was involved in sex play nor have I ever inferred it. I showed photos of self bondage to show that it wasn't far fetched that people can and have managed to bind themselves in ways that are impossible or near impossible to escape. I posted that because some are claiming no one has ever tied themselves up in that fashion before. Those photos are proof that people do, and have, tied themselves up in that manner for whatever reason.

IMO

Maybe this has been addressed before, but my question would be why? Why would she or anyone tie themselves up. It just seems so unnecessary. Anyone have a theory on this? If addressed somewhere else just direct me there. tia
 
I didn't say she was involved in sex play nor have I ever inferred it. I showed photos of self bondage to show that it wasn't far fetched that people can and have managed to bind themselves in ways that are impossible or near impossible to escape. I posted that because some are claiming no one has ever tied themselves up in that fashion before. Those photos are proof that people do, and have, tied themselves up in that manner for whatever reason.

IMO

I would like to see Criss Angel's idea about it. He can do just about any type of self bonding/escape that anyone could have even considered. :seeya:
 
Maybe this has been addressed before, but my question would be why? Why would she or anyone tie themselves up. It just seems so unnecessary. Anyone have a theory on this? If addressed somewhere else just direct me there. tia

The authorities have said that some suicide victims restrain themselves so that they can't change their minds.

There is a link that I posted the other day about naked suicides, although in reading through the archives I see that Ocean was the first to post it. It states that some who commit suicide in the nude see themselves as a sacrificial lamb of sorts. Perhaps the binding adds to the image of a sacrificial lamb.

IMO
 
Did they have 20 detectives on the scene? If so, they can't be accused of not doing their job. I'm going to search to see if I can find how many were on the scene, and from which departments.[/QUOTE


BBM

Sure they can. IMO, Having a large number of personnel on the crime scene proves nothing about how well they did their job. And I don't think there were that many at the scene. I believe there were 15 detectives assigned to the case. Coronado PD was first on the scene but the Sheriff's Department took over the investigation because they have a homicide department and Coronado PD does not. IMO
 
I don't think anyone is saying it is impossible for a person to tie themselves up this way. The question is, did Rebecca know how to do it. I don't know how. That doesn't mean it's impossible but it does mean if I'm ever found this way, I probably didn't do it to myself. Just because it's possible for her to have done it herself doesn't mean she did.
 
I didn't say she was involved in sex play nor have I ever inferred it. I showed photos of self bondage to show that it wasn't far fetched that people can and have managed to bind themselves in ways that are impossible or near impossible to escape. I posted that because some are claiming no one has ever tied themselves up in that fashion before. Those photos are proof that people do, and have, tied themselves up in that manner for whatever reason.

IMO

Just to clarify, I posted that, in my opinion, I believe that there were few if any suicides that were bound in that intricate manner. I do not disagree that there are people who are adept in the art of bondage and who engage in that activity.
 
I don't think anyone is saying it is impossible for a person to tie themselves up this way. The question is, did Rebecca know how to do it. I don't know how. That doesn't mean it's impossible but it does mean if I'm ever found this way, I probably didn't do it to myself. Just because it's possible for her to have done it herself doesn't mean she did.

Excellent point! Just because 'someone' can, does not mean Rebecca did and that should be addressed. If I died in such a manner, I certainly hope that those who loced me would question things!
 
Just to clarify, I posted that, in my opinion, I believe that there were few if any suicides that were bound in that intricate manner. I do not disagree that there are people who are adept in the art of bondage and who engage in that activity.

I have no problem believing RZ could have committed suicide in such a manner. I am just not sure that I am convinced that she did do it.
 
hi, newbie here. I've been very interested in this case and have been following it for months .I've also been reading a lot of very interesting and informative posts here, just wanted to post a few of my thoughts about this case. First off, as a lot of other posters here have said, there is still plenty of confusion and unanswered questions about Rebecca's supposed 'suicide.' That doesn't mean that I think she was murdered, it's just that I don't believe the LE did an adequate job of explaining themselves as to why they think she killed herself. I seriously do not get why they never even bothered to hire a forensic psychologist to look into Rebecca's death. That would have gone a long way to supporting their findings of suicide, and would have at least given Rebecca's family and the public a proper explanation of why she would have done what she did in such a strange manner. I don't believe that the LE's statement of her supposed depression and the death of Max are proper explanations imo.

Some people here have suggested that her sleeping naked is one way to explain her naked suicide. I read that information about naked suicides where it states that majority of people who kill themselves in such a manner are mentally ill, which doesn't fit into Rebecca's case. According to some reports, she has no history of mental illness or attempted suicides. Also, another thing that doesn't fit into the profile of a naked suicide is the fact that Rebecca hung herself outside rather than inside the house. Most women do not kill themselves naked, and those who do, often do so in the privacy of their house. Most naked suicides that occur outdoors are jumping deaths, which doesn't fit Rebecca's case as she chose to hang herself.

Another thing that doesn't fit into the theory of naked suicide is the fact that the whole suicide itself is rather elaborate. That would have taken planning and time, enough time for Rebecca to change her mind about the whole thing. I read some info that most impulsive suicides, which might be a factor in naked suicides, usually occur within 5 minutes of thinking about it. And most people who impulsively commit suicides do so with whatever they have available to them. For most women, that tends to be drugs or poisons i.e pesticides. Some people here have mentioned Rebecca's Asian background as an attempt to explain why she would kill herself, but that still doesn't adequately explain or support the theory of suicide. The fact is, drinking pesticide is the most popular method of suicide by asian women, which is a less violent way of dying than in Rebecca's case.

I would also like to further add that there seems to a be a few thoughts here regarding Max's death. If Max was thrown rather than falling on his own from the stairs, then I don't believe Rebecca would have killed herself in such a manner. If she felt guilty because she felt responsible for Max's death, she would not have tried to make her suicide look like homicide. If she felt guilty and was also blamed by Max's parents, she wouldn't have even lashed out at them by trying to stage her suicide to look like homicide. She might have killed herself because she felt ashamed of what she did, but why would she choose to hang herself naked outside? Why would she not leave a proper note to explain her remorse/guilt over what happened? The message itself seems rather sarcastic, there is nothing remorseful or even any expression of guilt over it. She doesn't even mention anything about God or being forgiven, which is rather strange given Rebecca's Christian background. Most Christians tend to view suicide as unacceptable, or even a sin. Even if Rebecca was in an irrational state of mind, the fact that she did all this planning, even to the point of painting a message on the door left handed and without any drugs or alcohol in her system, doesn't explain why she killed herself in such a bizarre way. Why would she choose to bind her hands and feet and gag herself in a supposed impulsive suicide? Plus the rope was all the way in the garage, so it wasn't something that was immediately seen or the only thing available to her. Plus, why did she choose to jump from that balcony? wouldn't it have been easier to do so inside the house? it was certainly large enough to find a high point to hang herself on.

Remember, in the information given about naked suicides, the article suggests that there might be a link to impulsiveness which does not seem to be the case here. Imo the only possible explanation to fit this whole suicide theory is if Rebecca was actually mentally ill with a history of depression.

The analysis indicates that hanging is the main suicide method when no other major method is available. The proportion of hangings typically decreases as either pesticide suicide or firearm suicide increases. Pesticide suicide has been recognized as a major public health problem in developing Asian countries.15–17

It is generally assumed that the use of hanging and other traditional suicide methods is largely governed by their acceptability and by sociocultural norms. While acceptability provides a general framework of beliefs about whether or not to commit suicide and which method to use, sociocultural norms provide a framework for how to proceed, for example, in how to deal with obstacles to suicide.

Hanging, for example, is a selective method because:it is violent; it needs some preparation; it needs some degree of courage and determination.26Each method has its own particular obstacles. Typically, the greater the obstacles, the lower the acceptability of the method and the greater the proportion of suicides associated with psychosis and other severe mental disorder.

http://www.who.int/bulletin/volumes/86/9/07-043489/en/

Impulsivity may be a factor in naked suicides. Most individuals spend at least some part of each day naked. An impulse to commit suicide may strike while the individual is naked. In their study of suicides, Simon et al.9 found that 25 percent of individuals studied made attempts within 5 minutes of having suicidal ideation.


Did the naked suicide attempt occur impulsively while the individual was undressed, leaving no time for "second thoughts" and rescue?

Information about the suicide is usually available through multiple collateral sources such as depositions, medical and psychiatric treatment records, coroner's reports, photographs, toxicology, and other data. But as the cases about to be described demonstrate, extensive collateral information may not provide insight into a naked suicide. In contrast, although extensive collateral information may be unavailable to the clinician treating a patient who has made a naked suicide attempt, an in-depth scrutiny of the psychological meaning of the patient's attempt may reveal the driving underlying intent and fantasies

A psychological autopsy may uncover the meaning of a naked suicide. In the mosaic of factors associated with suicide attempts and completions, nakedness or the state of dishabille is a piece, sometimes a critical piece, of evidence.

http://www.jaapl.org/cgi/content/full/36/2/240
 
hi SunnieRN, thanks for the welcome. Just thought I might add another link here for why I think forensic psychology should have been applied in this particular case:

What is an Equivocal Death?

A woman says her boyfriend went for a walk in a state park and then he was found dead in the ocean.
A king from centuries past dies from an undocumented cause.
The death of an eccentric billionaire raises questions.
A boy shoots his mother and claims it was an accident.
These cases, as different as they are, have something in common: the need for a psychological autopsy to get at the truth. Also called psychiatric autopsy, retrospective death assessment, reconstructive evaluation, and equivocal death analysis, the term refers to a specific method used for examining a person’s life—specifically, the life of a dead person.

In death certifications, there are three important matters: the cause, mechanism and mode or manner of death. The cause is an instrument or physical agent used to bring about death (a bullet, for example), the mechanism is the pathological agent in the body that resulted in the death (excessive bleeding), and the manner of death, according to the NASH classification, is considered to be natural, accident, homicide or suicide. Sometimes, although the cause and mechanism of death can be easily determined, the manner cannot. This it is known as an “undetermined” death.

A medical autopsy determines the cause of death by examining the physical condition of the body. In cases where the manner of death is unexplained and it’s not clear what happened, a psychological autopsy may assist the coroner or medical examiner in clearing up the mystery.

For example, as Elizabeth Biffl notes, someone falls from a plane and dies from multiple injuries. She wore a parachute, but it did not open. Did she fall from the plane, was she pushed, did she jump and the chute did not open, did she have a heart attack before pulling the cord, or did she jump and decide not to open the chute? We know what caused her physical death but we don’t have the larger picture.

The idea of a psychological autopsy is to discover the state of mind of the victim preceding death, because the results may be needed to settle criminal cases, estate issues, malpractice suits, or insurance claims. When the circumstances surrounding a death can be interpreted in more than one way (also called an equivocal death), psychologists can help to compile information retrospectively about behavior, psychological state, and motive in ways not as available to lawyers or medical examiners.

A man was found in a cemetery, lit on fire. He died on the way to the hospital. The cause was carbon monoxide and the mechanism was damage to his lungs from inhalation. Initially, this incident was determined to be a suicide. The man had a history of mental illness and he lived near the cemetery. The assumption was that he went off his medication, had a psychotic break, and set fire to himself. However, people who knew him insisted this was a hasty assumption. Further questioning indicated that he’d been harassed earlier that week by neighborhood bullies for being gay. There was now a possibility that he had been murdered. It was also possible that he had set fire to himself by accident. It would require an investigator who could look closely into this man’s psychiatric record, as well as reports from neighbors, to shift the balance toward one manner of death over another.

In many cases, the manner of death matters. Any family would rather know that the death of a 13-year-old was an accident instead of a suicide, and sometimes with older people, insurance payments depend upon it. But does the psychological information really affect the person who makes the final determination?

In a 1986 study, nearly half of the country’s medical examiners (195 out of 400) were given scenarios from both typical and equivocal death cases to analyze. Half of them received information from a psychological autopsy in addition to the standard information about the death scene. This information did not influence decisions in typical cases, but in the equivocal cases it had a significant impact on determining the manner of death. These results underscore the importance of gathering psychological information that could shed light on the circumstances surrounding the death.

If, for example, it was known that teenagers with mental illness or conduct disorders and antisocial tendencies have a higher than average suicide rate, this might affect an interpretation of ambiguous circumstances. “To determine intent,” says Fischer, “a complete and thorough psychological autopsy must be done.” Frustrated perfectionists, sexual abuse victims, and kids with fragile emotions can show high rates as well. A suicide overzealously reported can also trigger others, and Reiter and Parker indicate that suicides have been documented with children as young as three.

However, there are also autoerotic incidents, in which men attempt maximum sexual gratification but can accidentally kill themselves. These incidents often appear to be a suicide. “’Suicide’ should be used as the manner of death only after an exhaustive and thorough investigation,” says Fischer

Methods
To begin to think of a death as a potential suicide, there must be evidence that a wound could have been self-inflicted and there must be some way to determine whether the victim understood the consequences of what he or she was doing. In other words, what was the degree of lethal intent? That means compiling information about the person’s last hours, days, weeks, and sometimes even years.

A close examination of the death scene may indicate degree of intent and lethality—a secluded place and the use of a gun indicating a higher degree than using slow-acting pills in a place where the victim is likely to be discovered. It may also be the case that people who knew the deceased have motives for concealing what may have happened, so the investigator needs to be proficient in deception detection as well. At times, the results will be clear, while at other times, the deceased's state of mind before death cannot be known with certainty.

The methods of writing a biography are not dissimilar, because the information gathered is generally quite personal. It’s also similar to the victimology assessment of a behavioral profile. Some mental health professionals estimate that a comprehensive psychological autopsy takes 20 to 30 hours to develop, while others believe it takes much longer. The amount of time put in depends on the goal, and often on the funds available for it.

To put together a sense of the person’s final days and hours, a psychologist might use any number (or all) of the following sources, with the awareness that anyone he or she interviews may contaminate as easily as facilitate the process:

Interviews with eyewitnesses or police officers at the scene
Medical autopsy reports (which can reveal things about the victim, such as substance abuse, that even close friends did not know)
An examination of the death scene, at the scene or via photographs
Journals, correspondences or suicide note associated with the victim
Type of books the victim read, music preferred or videogames played
Behavior patterns noted by others, especially unusual recent behavior
Records (school, military, phone, employment, medical, psychiatric)
History of medication, if any
Acquaintance reports (accounts of last encounters or odd incidents)
Comparisons against archival data (suicide studies, mental illness and risk prediction for suicide)
Empirical Criteria for Determination of Suicide (a 16-item scoring system with a 92% accuracy rate)
Reports about conflicted relationships or other stressors (life events that precipitated a loss of hope)
Changes in wills or life insurance policies
Death history or mental illness in family
To put together a description that will include:

Basic info (age, address, gender, marital status, family, occupation, religion, personal interests)
Details of death
An incident reconstruction
Victim’s familiarity with death methods/accessibility
Victim’s stress reaction patterns
Recent stressors in victim’s life
Role of alcohol or drugs in lifestyle
Fantasies/dreams/night-time disorders/premonitions
Changes in victim’s habits or routines
Signs of preparation for ending life
Occupational history (successes/failures)
Relationship history
Assessment of intention and motive
How others react to the death (this can be significant, but also misleading)
The final result should be a fairly accurate sense of the victim’s personality, habits and behavior patterns, specifically including any recent changes. Often the likely manner of death will emerge from these facts.

Aside from determining the manner of death, psychological autopsies may serve other purposes as well:

In the event of suicide, determine the triggers
In the event of homicide, help with crime reconstruction and block attempts by a defendant to raise the victim’s suicide as a defense
Answer questions about testamentary capacity prior to death
Postvention for survivors (helping survivors deal with grief and loss)
Gain actuarial information about behavior, for improving databases
Help with expert testimony at trial

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/criminal_mind/forensics/psych_autopsy/index.html
 
Does anyone live in the Sab Diego area? If so, do you know if there are any cameras on the freeways there?
 
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