GUILTY CA - Sophia, 2, Yazmine, 1, & Xenia Coronado, 2 mos, murdered, 20 May 2014

[gitana1]

I also don't get it. I was once a young mother, full-time job on the nite shift, home, money problems, etc, just like all young mothers. I never had PPD, but sometimes I did feel overwhelmed. But never once did I feel like hurting (or killing) my child. Why do they not just walk away. Better to leave a baby screaming in the house alone than kill it. Get your purse, yell to the husband "get your azz over here, I'm leaving' and drive off, walk off, whatever is necessary.
Just for what its worth, I've never thought Andrea Yates was crazy.
All MOO

I never bought her insanity excuse either - at least at first. I thought that the maternal instinct should be able to break through any kind of insanity,no matter how profound, if such maternal instinct existed to begin with. I thought that the bond with her children would have to fight through the haze of mental illness as she systematically held each of her children down, watching them gasp and struggle and fight to stay alive, and as she actually chased down her older kids. I was outraged, horrified, appalled and refused to give her any excuse.

Then I researched her case.

My gosh I had no idea. Repeated hospitalizations. Suicide attempts. Delusions and hallucinations. For years. Warnings from her doctors that she should not have anymore pregnancies. Catatonia. Warnings not to levae her alone with the children. Bizarre behavior. Dry runs filling the tub "in case she needed it". Hallucinations that the t.v. was talking to her, telling her the only way to save her children from hell was to kill them.

She was on so many different anti-depressant and anti-psychotic medications BEFORE she ever harmed her kids - Haldol, Risperdol, Ativan, Zyprexa, etc.

This indeed was a profoundly ill woman long before she killed her children.

http://www.postpartum.net/get-the-facts/postpartum-psychosis.aspx

But the question is not whether a post-partum depression can become post-partum psychosis or what psychosis means. The question is why does psychosis in these mothers so often involve the desire to harm their children? Why does the psychosis manifest itself that way?

You could say "it's post partum madness" or you could say "it was an act of spite".

NOT judging this woman, but I am getting very very sick of individuals harming innocent children.

I had a friend who's mother had PPD for years, back 40 years ago.

She ended up having shock therapy which apparently worked like a charm.

HOWEVER I note that my friend grew up unharmed, as did (no doubt) a million other babies who's mothers have suffered over the decades with PPD.

Why are the effects of PPD worsening? Because the PPD itself is getting worse, or because our SOCIETY is getting more violent?

Everywhere you look it seems as though some narcissist has decided the best way to get over whatever is bothering them, is to murder someone.

It's just not good enough. NO PPD in the world can cause a mother to slice open her children, one by one.

Sorry. Y'all who suffered it and survived, know it's true. I bet none of you posting here ever ONCE thought to stab or slash your baby, or if you did you ran and got help.

I'm reminded of the callous little madams who give birth in school bathrooms during the prom, and stuff the baby in the garbage.

Are they supposed to be suffering PPD too, while they adjust their underwear and head back to the dance floor?

It could just be that they are evil and selfish.

Men annihilate their families all the time and no one looks to hormones to excuse them.

Mothers have been killing their infants since time began. Infanticide is referenced in all sorts of ancient texts including ancient Roman legal documents, letters, etc., and in Elizabethan literature and news articles in the US since the colonists arrived . It is observable among Chimps and even Bonobos. In fact, it is observable among all sorts of different animals.

This is from a great, comprehensive academic research article about infanticide on the part of mothers:

When I first obtained the carefully transcribed volumes of homicides recorded by the Chicago Police Department between the years
of 1870 and 1930, I was stunned. [185 cases in Chicago alone, during that period] http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...=zuoUNRpZ4zcLvkFwmwctag&bvm=bv.67651124,d.cGU

It appears there may actually be a decline in the numbers today. A huge one. The author examined a database that shows only 219 cases between 1990 and 2000, total, not just in Chicago.

A book I have called Wisconsin Death Trip, gives various accounts of mothers murdering their children in Wisconsin, in the 1800's.

I do not believe out society is getting more violent and I don't believe these cases are increasing. I think our society is actually much less violent than years past.

 

[seattlechiquita]

Thank you gitana, for your post. ITA, brava.

 

[DairyGirl]

Infanticide and suicide can't just be lumped together like that! What percentage of this 5% is infanticide? Probably .00001% of your "statistic"!

Over the centuries, how many women have suffered PPD?

It would have to be billions.

Over the centuries, how many women have taken up a knife and sliced each child open one by one?

A handful.

The chances that this woman (whos selfie shows her to be somewhat narcissistic) suffered a massive psychotic break while her family were all around her, is just unbelievable to me.

These things happen to isolated women, women who are clearly unwell and have been left untreated and ignored for extended periods of time.

I just don't get that vibe.

There was an American woman in the UK who did the same thing. Her children were all school age, but she killed all three then tried to kill herself.

It had nothing to do with PPD and everything to do with punishing her husband.

PPD doesn't make you into a baby slicing murderer.

We're not talking about PPD (postpartum depression) but PPP (postpartum psychosis) much different.
And your statement about it only happening to isolated woman is totally off base. Do you have a link to back up that claim? Mental illness happens to everyone. It does not discriminate between rich or poor, men or woman and certainly not not just to people who are isolated. Many people have mental illness that would surprise you. Some are well controlled with medication, others are just very good at hiding it. Unless you have some kind of credentials then your statement was just not based in fact. And frankly, your attitude towards people with mental illness, along with your ignorance about it, is one of the reasons that mental illness is still heavily stigmatized, making it difficult for people to admit to their problem much less seek help.

 

[MyBelle]

We're not talking about PPD (postpartum depression) but PPP (postpartum psychosis) much different.
And your statement about it only happening to isolated woman is totally off base. Do you have a link to back up that claim? Mental illness happens to everyone. It does not discriminate between rich or poor, men or woman and certainly not not just to people who are isolated. Many people have mental illness that would surprise you. Some are well controlled with medication, others are just very good at hiding it. Unless you have some kind of credentials then your statement was just not based in fact. And frankly, your attitude towards people with mental illness, along with your ignorance about it, is one of the reasons that mental illness is still heavily stigmatized, making it difficult for people to admit to their problem much less seek help.

This case may also involve domestic violence. It may have been a powder keg waiting to explode for quite some time.

JMO

 

[mae]

First off, we are talking about PPP not simply PPD. They are not the same beast.

Over the centuries, how many women have suffered PPD?

It would have to be billions.

Over the centuries, how many women have taken up a knife and sliced each child open one by one?

A handful.

<snipped>

This is simply untrue. Women (and men) have been killing their children since there have been kids.

>Anthropologist Laila Williamson notes that "Infanticide has been practiced on every continent and by people on every level of cultural complexity, from hunter gatherers to high civilizations, including our own ancestors. Rather than being an exception, then, it has been the rule." -Source

>Filicide has existed since the dawn of mankind. In ancient Greco-Roman times, a father was allowed to kill his own child without legal repercussions.1 Despite the later rise of Christianity and its greater respect for life, filicides continued, often perpetrated by the mother, who may have claimed the child accidentally suffocated in bed.2 Reasons for wanting to end the life of a child, particularly a newborn, included disability, gender, lack of resources to care for the child, or illegitimacy. These reasons still hold true today. However, without our current systems of documentation, including records of birth and death, it was far easier to succeed in completing a filicidal act in earlier times without the knowledge of authorities, who may have turned the other cheek regardless of the laws in order to strike a balance between population growth and resources available in impoverished areas. -Source

It's not that it happens more. It's that we just hear about it more. It's harder to cover up. It makes the news in other states and countries now. Records are online and readily available.

And more than a handful of women have killed their kids in recent times. Sometimes it does not make the news at all and is covered up. Have you seen how many missing and UID children there are in the world?

In 2004, 311 out of 578 (53.8%) children under the age of five were murdered by their parents in the US. And while numbers are general steady, they are down since the 70s.

The chances that this woman (whos selfie shows her to be somewhat narcissistic) suffered a massive psychotic break while her family were all around her, is just unbelievable to me.

These things happen to isolated women, women who are clearly unwell and have been left untreated and ignored for extended periods of time.

<snipped>

Often women are socially isolated. But again this is not always true, nor is it any guarantee.

>Filicide is a complicated and multifactorial crime. Given its complex nature, it is difficult to establish traits that consistently apply to its perpetrators and victims.

That said, most do have preexisting mental health conditions in common:

>The filicidal mothers in psychiatric samples had frequently experienced psychosis, depression, suicidality, and prior mental health care. -Source

 

[Poppyflower]

{{{DairyGirl}}} I'm so glad you got help and am so sorry that you went through that.

 

[Disguiseduser0308]

The chances that this woman (whos selfie shows her to be somewhat narcissistic) suffered a massive psychotic break while her family were all around her, is just unbelievable to me.

These things happen to isolated women, women who are clearly unwell and have been left untreated and ignored for extended periods of time.

~ Snipped for breavity ~

I don't know about that. I wasn't isolated. I was surrounded by family and friendly medical personnel on a fairly consistent basis. Thankfully, myself and my children are unscathed today. I don't know what could have happened had someone not finally put the pieces together.

I think the thing that's not clear about psychosis, especially postpartum, is this: We mothers don't know we're not well. We don't have the same grasp on reality that most new mothers do. We just don't know that what we think is happening is not based in reality. We don't know that what we're hearing doesn't actually exist. Unless you have been through it, I can't tell you how bad it really is. It's a reality you cannot imagine until you're on the other side of it.

Thankfully PPP is rare. Many women suffer from it. We only ever hear it discussed when a child is a victim of it. I'll always feel for the children and mothers lost to this. I just wish there was a way to save everyone.

 

[Disguiseduser0308]

Have doctors identified if there is a chemical/hormonal imbalance that takes place during pregnancy or during/after birth? Perhaps we could prevent and treat these women before their children are alone with them at home...I would be very interested to read studies on this. It seems ridiculous that there isn't some kind of medication that targets PPD specifically that could offset those intense feelings.

I just recently learned that my paternal grandmother also suffered from PPP following the birth of my father. He's a '50s baby so she was left to suffer for a lot longer than I was. She did end up being hospitalized after many months.

After hearing this I had to wonder if there was a genetic component.

 

[Disguiseduser0308]

I hope this link is okay to share.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcaubXpQiFI

 

[Disguiseduser0308]

I'm sorry to be so long winded about this subject. Each new story of lives lost to this illness affects me so much it resonates in my soul.

Years ago I watched an episode of Oprah where she and her panel discussed PPD & PPP. Some psychiatrists believe the rise of PPD (less so PPP) are related to not only hormones, but to the stress that's placed on mothers so soon after a baby is born. The modern world if you will.

They discussed how in other countries around the world a mother with a newborn will be surrounded by family. This family helps her by caring for the child and the mother. Taking on the cooking and cleaning and care of other children. Allowing mother to get plenty of rest and to enable her to concentrate on caring for her newborns nursing/feeding needs. They stated the prevalence of PPD/PPP is much lower in those countries. I have no link to share on this, but I remember being greatly affected by the idea.

I wonder if we would see less of PPD & PPP if from the start there were strong family support. People who could live their lives with new mommy and baby and give them the outside care they need. Unfortunately, this is a pipe dream, many live far from their families. Families have their own lives to live. Imagine if you will.. what could be.

There's a lot of pressure to be "SUPER mommy". Lots of websites who will tell you what you're doing is wrong. We are overloaded with the images and stories of the perfect mom. Sites that tell us what we have to do to be the best mommy ever.

Somehow the pressure cooker we get stuck in needs to be released. Moms need to know this: There is no perfect mother. All we can do is love our children with all that we have. Hold them. Rock them. Kiss them. Tell them everyday that you love them. That's what being a mommy is all about.

I apologize again for being so wordy. This subject just hits my soul the way no other can.

 

[JLSChook]

You could say "it's post partum madness" or you could say "it was an act of spite".

NOT judging this woman, but I am getting very very sick of individuals harming innocent children.

I had a friend who's mother had PPD for years, back 40 years ago.

She ended up having shock therapy which apparently worked like a charm.

HOWEVER I note that my friend grew up unharmed, as did (no doubt) a million other babies who's mothers have suffered over the decades with PPD.

Why are the effects of PPD worsening? Because the PPD itself is getting worse, or because our SOCIETY is getting more violent?

Everywhere you look it seems as though some narcissist has decided the best way to get over whatever is bothering them, is to murder someone.

It's just not good enough. NO PPD in the world can cause a mother to slice open her children, one by one.

Sorry. Y'all who suffered it and survived, know it's true. I bet none of you posting here ever ONCE thought to stab or slash your baby, or if you did you ran and got help.

I'm reminded of the callous little madams who give birth in school bathrooms during the prom, and stuff the baby in the garbage.

Are they supposed to be suffering PPD too, while they adjust their underwear and head back to the dance floor?

It could just be that they are evil and selfish.

Men annihilate their families all the time and no one looks to hormones to excuse them.

I have to thank you from the bottom of my heart for this post. Reading this thread was making me feel sick--literally!

If this had been a man (as has been the case several times here at WS), the thread would have been totally different.

Honestly, I'm tired of the excuses women get for slaughtering their own babies. Again, if this was a man, there would be ZERO sympathy for him. (as it should be)

I have so much more to say but I need to calm down first. :blushing:
Thanks again.

 

[mikeysmommom]

I'm one who doesn't believe PPD leads to murder of the child. I think it is nothing more than a way for a father to place total blame on the mother and zero on himself.

JMO

I do not believe in PPD either. I think it is nothing more then the way a murdering mother tries to escape justice. Total blame is on the one who murders , the father is just another victim of hers IMO.

 

[Disguiseduser0308]

I don't expect anyone who hasn't been through it themselves to truly understand. The point I am making is this: it didn't have to happen. Sorry, it's absolutely NOTHING like your friends/sisters/cousins PPD.

Yes, I had thoughts of harming my children. I won't dare go into all the horrendous intrusive thoughts I had. I can barely stand the current description being used about babies being sliced up. Imagine for one moment that it was you. Easy to think when you're in reality that, yes, I run and get help. When one has a break with reality, they don't know it's broken. Everyone is the enemy. Again, I cannot stress just how soul shattering this illness is.

NO I didn't get help right away because I didn't know I was ill. It wasn't until 9 weeks later when I tried to run out into traffic that someone saw there was an extremely serious issue. But hey, I could have been another mother that should have killed herself because she was mentally ill.

More mothers commit suicide over this illness than commit infanticide. These cases don't make the news, however. The only way to try to stop this is to bring this subject to the forefront. Before mothers are so out of touch with reality that they're killing themselves and their children.

 

[kimi_SFC]

I have received permission from Salem to post this link to this article, as it references a newly created Facebook page:

(Angels Coronado) honoring the victims:
Sophia. Yazmine and Xenia.
:heartbeat: :rose: :heartbeat: :rose: :heartbeat: :rose:

http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2014...ed-for-family-of-murdered-torrance-sliblings/

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100005118765822&fref=ts


i am choosing my words carefully in order to remain on compliance with TOS.

ETA: this is the exact URL linked in the article and the one approved by Salem. You may need to search "Angels Coronado" on Facebook to see the three sisters' image on the avatar. :tears:

It is not a community page that you can "Like." Hope this helps.

#RIPAngels

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Geneva]

My oldest daughter is mentally ill/drug addicted. We do not leave her alone with her own child. This story is my worst nightmare.

Rest in Peace, baby girls.

 

[LaborDayRN]

Infanticide and suicide can't just be lumped together like that! What percentage of this 5% is infanticide? Probably .00001% [modsnip]

Over the centuries, how many women have suffered PPD?

It would have to be billions.

Over the centuries, how many women have taken up a knife and sliced each child open one by one?

A handful.

The chances that this woman (whos selfie shows her to be somewhat narcissistic) suffered a massive psychotic break while her family were all around her, is just unbelievable to me.

These things happen to isolated women, women who are clearly unwell and have been left untreated and ignored for extended periods of time.

I just don't get that vibe.

There was an American woman in the UK who did the same thing. Her children were all school age, but she killed all three then tried to kill herself.

It had nothing to do with PPD and everything to do with punishing her husband.

PPD doesn't make you into a baby slicing murderer.

I was not referring to postpartum depression (PPD as you put it).

Actually, I believe the article (not me) was attempting to communicate that with postpartum psychosis (not postpartum depression, different animal) there is a 5% rate of someone dying, be it the mother killing the child or herself. IMO the article was pointing out the serious nature of the psychosis.

Over the centuries many, many woman have suffered postpartum depression. Postpartum psychosis however is much more rare and the condition that was being addressed in the article. MOO

 

[CherylE]

I do not get it. I have compassion for how hard it is with multiple young children, in a bad situation without help because I have lived in poverty, abusive ex, 5 kids four and under including twins with colic, no car, no local family, very socially isolated. When overwhelmed...would make sure all kids were safe, let them cry, and step outside the room and let them cry and usually I would cry. I really have no idea now how we made it through..very hard years.but bad as things ever got...cannot relate to someone killing their own children. this breaks my heart for those poor babies.

 

[kimi_SFC]

NY Daily News
Yesterday at 11:55 PM

(snip)
The godfather of three California sisters who were murdered in their own home asked for mourners to pray for their mother, who is suspected of killing them.

(snip)
JC (CC's godfather) told the Los Angeles Times that Rudy Coronado doesn't blame his wife.

(snip)

"Right now, he's giving her the benefit of doubt," he said. "He just said he didn't believe he saw Carol — he saw a demon inside her."

(snip)
Investigators also found a hammer at the scene, KTLA reported.

Coronado was hospitalized with several self-inflicted stab wounds, police said. She's expected to be officially arrested on murder charges when she's released.

(snip)

(Coronado) has never been reported for child abuse.

MuchMore@Link

http://m.nydailynews.com/news/crime/mom-murdered-girls-demon-godfather-article-1.1801910

(Image from article)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Disguiseduser0308]

I do not get it. I have compassion for how hard it is with multiple young children, in a bad situation without help because I have lived in poverty, abusive ex, 5 kids four and under including twins with colic, no car, no local family, very socially isolated. When overwhelmed...would make sure all kids were safe, let them cry, and step outside the room and let them cry and usually I would cry. I really have no idea now how we made it through..very hard years.but bad as things ever got...cannot relate to someone killing their own children. this breaks my heart for those poor babies.

Respectfully -- this is not a mother who was just having a hard time with three babies in a few short years. This was a mother who likely suffered a complete psychotic break. She wasn't suffering your average run-of-the-mill stress every parent has with a new baby while tending to other children. This is not because her babies cried, needed to eat, having to pay bills etc.

Let me ask this: Would you expect a schizophrenic to stop talking to themselves because hey, you've been stressed/abused and didn't need to talk to yourself? I don't think that's even an option.

Would you expect a severely depressed person to just stop thinking everything is wrong -- get up out of bed and face the world -- because you've had bad things happen in life and never fell depressed because of it?

PPP is just as much of a mental health condition as the above. Considering the sudden onset and severity of the condition, it's certainly more dangerous. Having children doesn't make all mothers experts on it. You have to live it to know what it's like.

Again, I'm not excusing the mothers actions whatsoever, but I stand by what I've tried to convey all along: This didn't have to happen.

 

[ADoyle]

Respectfully -- this is not a mother who was just having a hard time with three babies in a few short years. This was a mother who likely suffered a complete psychotic break. She wasn't suffering your average run-of-the-mill stress every parent has with a new baby while tending to other children. This is not because her babies cried, needed to eat, having to pay bills etc.

Let me ask this: Would you expect a schizophrenic to stop talking to themselves because hey, you've been stressed/abused and didn't need to talk to yourself? I don't think that's even an option.

Would you expect a severely depressed person to just stop thinking everything is wrong -- get up out of bed and face the world -- because you've had bad things happen in life and never fell depressed because of it?

PPP is just as much of a mental health condition as the above. Considering the sudden onset and severity of the condition, it's certainly more dangerous. Having children doesn't make all mothers experts on it. You have to live it to know what it's like.

Again, I'm not excusing the mothers actions whatsoever, but I stand by what I've tried to convey all along: This didn't have to happen.

To me, this sounds more like PPP as the mother had a psychotic break just as Andrea Yates did. There's a stigma with mental health treatment, even for PPD, and it's far worse for someone with psychosis because in the worst cases of that illness, children are murdered.