Cadaver dogs have hit on dumpster near home #2

[sarx]

We are blessed to have a new member who has been verified as a professional in search and rescue with an added bonus in the use of dogs. Her hat is Sarx.

Don't forget that we have a list of professionals that we can draw information from on Websleuths. The list for Haleigh's forum is here: Professional Posters - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

Hi Kimster and everyone in this thread. Thanks for the warm welcome. I've been reading over this thread for the last couple of hours. I'll try and help make sense of it (though sometimes it ends up with more questions than answers but here goes...)

First, let me try and clarify types of SAR dogs
Trailing Dog
A trailing dog is typically trained for scent discrimination. Each dog is usually worked in a harness, on a leash, and given an uncontaminated scent article (such as a piece of clothing, hairbrush, or even a swab from a car seat or door) belonging to the missing person. The dog follows that scent (generally from the PLS (place last seen) and no other. At times, the dog may track, following the person's footsteps, or air scent, and home in on the subject's scent. Tracking and trailing are different to the purist, just as a side note.

Air Scent Dog or Area Search Dog
This dog finds lost people by picking up traces of human scent that are drifting in the air, and looks for the "cone" of scent where it is most concentrated. This dog will not normally discriminate scents, so possibility of a "false alarm" will happen if other people (searchers, citizens) are in their search area (not a big deal, you just keep going).

Cadaver Dog or HRDD (Human Remains Detection Dog)
A cadaver dog reacts to the scent of a dead human. The dog can be trained for above ground and buried cadaver searches. Cadaver dogs are trained to locate only human remains. The training process includes detection of very minute pieces of cadaver, remains and also blood (depending on training).

Here is where it gets very tricky. Some dogs are being cross trained, meaning they will both trail a live scent and find remains. This gets sticky because it can be hard to tell when you have gone from living to dead. Another sticking point is how the cadaver dog is trained. Some are trained only on dead tissue and bone, some are trained to include blood (for criminal forensic aspects this is great, for missing persons it can cause a multitude of issues). Yet another issue is that dogs in England and some locales in the US are not allowed to train with real decomp and must use pseudo (chemically created) material. There is a lot of argument on the reliability of dogs that have been trained this way. As far as dead animals and such, this should be a non issue for any well trained K9, they should have been taught to ignore all non human decomp.

I will continue with trying to clear up questions from the last 6 pages in the next post (don't know how long of a post I can make!)

 

[sarx]

Let me first start by saying that I do not know the training that these dogs have gone through, so I can only go off of standards, which may or may not apply to this group of dogs.

In regards to the retirement home
Absolutely, a cadaver dog will hit on any human decomp, so if something was dumped in there from a house where someone had died (the sheets for example) the dog would hit on it.

IRT (In regards to) dogs pulling down the hillside
Do we know if this was shot during the actual search? I have been shot letting my dog "air out" (get out of the car, stretch out and go potty) and they used that for the news. Made my dog look like a spazz, when she wasn't searching at all.

IRT the fact that all 3 hit on the dumpster
Did they all go in blind or did they know what the others had done? If a blanket was used to carry her body and rubbed up against the dumpster and was then taken out the dogs would hit on that, no large physical evidence would have to remain. The same thing could be said about her body being placed in there and then later removed. It is also possible that it was decomp scent from someone else totally unrelated (see above).

Another question, were these dogs cross trained? It could impact what they were alerting to.

It was mentioned that her scent was traced to water and RR tracks (post 40), this would indicate that trailing dogs (scent specific) were used. Is this anywhere near the dumpster? If she was killed somewhere else and then dumped in the dumpster the trailing dogs would not have followed this. Once the live trail stops so would they (again, assuming that the trailing dogs used were NOT cross trained).

post #41
Going back to cross trained dogs, yes, it is possible for the same dog to hit on live scent and decomp. Once again, without knowing the dogs this gets very hard to break down and make sense of.

Once a person dies things start to change quickly, the body stops shedding those skin cells that a trailing dog uses (In fact I have seen a trailing dog follow a trail and then literally spin in circles when they got near a corpse because as far as they were concerned the trail stopped.). Decomp begins and a whole new set of smells come out that are there for cadaver dogs. Dogs that are cross trained can jump from the live scent to the decomp scent, but a dog that is strictly one or the other will not.

IRT blood. Not all cadaver dogs are trained on blood, but many are. Because of this it is true that they could hit on anything with blood on it, including band-aids etc. If you're out looking in the woods for a buried body this isn't much of an issue. If however you are looking in a dumpster this can be a huge problem. I would not bring in dogs that hit on blood in that situation, it's likely they will get a positive hit for obvious reasons.

Post 92
Will dogs hit on human cadavers only or anything dead?
Cadaver dogs should always be trained to ignore all other dead things, this is critical in training and I can't imagine anyone not doing this (it would make for a pretty worthless cadaver dog).

Quoted from Post 101
"Search dogs search for living scent, only cadaver dogs train for decomp"--- not true anymore, now there are cross trained dogs that will do both.

#102
Living scent disappears as soon as deceased?
On the body itself the scent changes quickly. I don't have hard numbers (though I would love to see a study on it). I would say in under an hour though, just from SAR experience. The trail leading up to the body however (think of dandruff that falls off and leaves a trail where you walked) will stay on the ground for days even weeks depending on conditions.

#106
Why didn't the trailing dogs hit on the dumpster?
If they were strictly trailing dogs and she was dead before being placed in the dumpster there would be no live scent for them to trail.

#137
Can dogs trail a vehicle trail?
Yes, not as reliably though as there is much less scent deposited and it is generally on pavement where the elements will destroy it quicker.
Lacy Peterson's dogs/handlers botched the job badly, so much so that all of it (with the exception of the dock/pier part) was not allowed in court. Nancy Grace liked the story and has used it more than once. The sad truth is the dog went just about everywhere and the handler used other knowledge to help go in the right direction.

Have I helped to answer some of the questions or did I confuse everyone even more?

 

[bessie]

I'm on my way out to dinner, so will catch up later. Just wanted to say thanks for posting your comments, Sarx. Can't wait to read them.

 

[leslie1960]

Thanks so much for all this information, Sarx! It certainly clarified a lot of things for me. I wish we knew specifically what the dogs in question were certified for in each of these searches.

 

[MADJGNLAW]

Maybe they had to get the trash bags out of the dumpster in order to go through them? But yes, it did look weird. I sure wouldn't want to be waist deep inside that thing digging through all that trash with my hands... even with 6 pairs of gloves on!

I wonder which kind of cadaver dogs were used. There are some who are specially trained that will only hit on decomp odors. They do NOT hit on blood, or bodily fluids. But I found out awhile back that there are cross-trained dogs too. Would really like to know which kind these dogs were.

Dogs Trained To Find Human Remains.

The teams consist of cadaver dogs that specifically seek out human remains.
http://www.wftv.com/news/18801373/detail.html

Dogs Trained To Find Human Remains To Search Near Haleigh Home
POSTED: Thursday, February 26, 2009
SATSUMA, Fla. -- Several teams of dogs specially trained to find human remains searched the area around the mobile home where 5-year-old Haleigh Cummings disappeared Feb. 10. A K-9 team from a group called Canine South was brought in to conduct the search "to ensure that no possibility is overlooked in the search for Haleigh."
http://www.clickorlando.com/news/187...102262009&ts=H

The dogs are trained to specifically seek out human remains and are part of Canine South, a non-law enforcement group specializing in canine searches.
http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/l...132277&catid=3

 

[Kimster]

Thank you Sarx! :blowkiss: I think the main questions that we have now are on the last two pages. But ANY input you give us is much appreciated as we haven't had someone with your background help before and we have been looking for clues for over a year to find little Haleigh.

 

[sarx]

Deputies found a footprint in the dirt, and dogs picked up a scent leading away from the home of Haleigh Cummings

The tracking dog led deputies to a pond and back to Green Drive, Haleigh's street. Deputies looked inside a small building with a door that had been left open. Nothing was inside.

The track continued north past Haleigh's home down Monroe Avenue and onto Buchan Circle, which looped back to Monroe Avenue. The canine officer continued to track down Buffalo Bluff Road but lost the track at the railroad crossing.

http://www.florida-cracker.org/archives/004565.html

was there more on this?

 

[sarx]

Dogs Trained To Find Human Remains.

I have been looking for more info on the group Canine South to see if I can get any more specifics on them.

Lots of dogs that are trained in HRD will hit on blood as part of their training. We would need to find info specific to their training. I do tend to lead towards them hitting on blood because Brian Selzer is apparently a Sgt. and would likely use his dog in criminal investigations where blood evidence would be important.

 

[sarx]

I am very interested in all the dog searches. I think the first dogs who arrived and tracked Haleigh needs to be explored. What happened at the tracks to stop the dogs? I have read the dogs tracked to the pond, through the woods to the clearing and to the docks but stopped at the tracks on Buffalo Bluff. Can they track a vehicle with scent and then it disappaites? I heard with Lacy Peterson, the dogs tracked a long while.

Also is the scent the first arrival dogs a live scent?

The last sentence.....
Are you asking if the first dogs on the scene would be live scent dogs? If that's the question, then the answer is generally yes. With the search starting so soon after she went missing there would be no reason to assume she was dead.

In an incorporated area like this a trailing dog would be brought in first, hopefully as soon as the MP call came in. They would then take the dog to the PLS (place last seen) and gather a scent article. There was some mention of the dogs being given a bad SA (scent article) on purpose. I don't know if that's fact or not, but this would be why handlers should always collect their own article (we've learned this the hard way). You cannot even be sure that LE will do it right and the scent article for a trailing dog is key, without it they have nothing to search for.

Now, once the dogs led to a pond or a body of water I would bring in HRD dogs that were specially trained for water searches and search those areas simultaneously just to cover all bases.

A big caveat here though is that if Haleigh walked these areas frequently before she went missing the dog could have been on one of those trails. Sometimes dogs can have a hard time getting out of the area where the person lives or hangs out. IOW, say she walked to the river everyday, that is going to be a very strong trail. You hope the dogs will pick the most recent trail (which would be the way she went missing), but it can be tough.

 

[sarx]

I would like to know if a dog is trained to specifically "seek out human remains" and they hit on the dumpster than how can they dismiss this as a false hit saying it could have been a bloody bandage or whatever, a bloody bandage is not "human remains".. I thought that "trained in seeking out human remains" they would be trained to hit on the smell of decomposition not on a bloody bandage.... Could you please clarify for us what exactly they are trained to hit on, whether it be on decomp or blood? If they are trained to hit on blood they would be blood hounds.... Sorry I have always been POed about this, because I think LE dropped the ball here.

I wish I could clarify this, but not knowing the dogs I can't say for sure. It is entirely possible that they are trained to hit on both, many are. This is where cross training has its downsides. If a dog is only trained in remains and not trained on blood you would be able to narrow it down and say that someones decomp was in there (though you wouldn't know if it was her, like sheets that had been thrown in and then taken out or what). If they have blood training then it could have been from someone who threw something in and scratched themselves on the edge of the dumpster for all we know.

 

[ladonna]

The last sentence.....
Are you asking if the first dogs on the scene would be live scent dogs? If that's the question, then the answer is generally yes. With the search starting so soon after she went missing there would be no reason to assume she was dead.

In an incorporated area like this a trailing dog would be brought in first, hopefully as soon as the MP call came in. They would then take the dog to the PLS (place last seen) and gather a scent article. There was some mention of the dogs being given a bad SA (scent article) on purpose. I don't know if that's fact or not, but this would be why handlers should always collect their own article (we've learned this the hard way). You cannot even be sure that LE will do it right and the scent article for a trailing dog is key, without it they have nothing to search for.

Now, once the dogs led to a pond or a body of water I would bring in HRD dogs that were specially trained for w

ater searches and search those areas simultaneously just to cover all bases.

A big caveat here though is that if Haleigh walked these areas frequently before she went missing the dog could have been on one of those trails. Sometimes dogs can have a hard time getting out of the area where the person lives or hangs out. IOW, say she walked to the river everyday, that is going to be a very strong trail. You hope the dogs will pick the most recent trail (which would be the way she went missing), but it can be tough.

You are amazing.

 

[Concerned Papa]

Deputies found a footprint in the dirt, and dogs picked up a scent leading away from the home of Haleigh Cummings

The tracking dog led deputies to a pond and back to Green Drive, Haleigh's street. Deputies looked inside a small building with a door that had been left open. Nothing was inside.

The track continued north past Haleigh's home down Monroe Avenue and onto Buchan Circle, which looped back to Monroe Avenue. The canine officer continued to track down Buffalo Bluff Road but lost the track at the railroad crossing.

http://www.florida-cracker.org/archives/004565.html

was there more on this?

It seems like a long, long time ago, but this is what I came up with early in this case for the track route from the PCSO report of 2/10.

http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2009/images/02/13/putnam.pdf

This is supported by the original case narrative for the report. You'll notice that it's description does not have the portion redacted as in the final report:

Original Haleigh Cummings case police narrative

(Spelling and grammar as found on original report)

Police initiateda track beginning at the back door and down a wooded path, as we travelled down the wooded path, we located what appeared to be asmall child's footprint in the dirt. It should be noted that Ronald said Haleigh's shoes were still located inside the residence. The track lead up to a small pond and then back to the railroad crossing. At the last residence on the right side of the Green Drive was a small building with a door which had been left open. I entered the building but found no one insire

The track then continued past the north residence, where police made a left turn on Monroe Avenue. We made another left onto Buchan Circle, which we followed in a loop back to Monroe Avenue. We then made a left onto Tyler Street, and travelled past 116 Tyler, which is a location where Misty stated she had walked with Haleigh in the past. We then made a right turn on BUffalo Bluff Road to the railroad crossing, where we found were forced to end the track, because the canonwas unable to follow it any further.

http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/state/missing_haleigh_police_report_021609

I made this map of the route based on my understanding of the narrative from both reports. For reference, I have other points in the area identified with a legend.

The yellow line is the track route on 2/10/09 from the PCSO report

The blue line is the apparent continuation of the track route between the beginning and end of the redacted area

#1 202 Green Drive

#2 Pond from PCSO report

#3 Small building from PCSO report

#4 103 Buchanan Circle, former residence of RC in 2008

#5 Beginning point of redacted portion of PCSO report of track route

#6 202 Monroe Avenue, RSO K John's residence

#7 200 Monroe Avenue, former residence of RC in 2008

#8 RV storage area

#9 116 Tyler Street, MC's brother's residence

#10 End of redacted portion of PCSO report of track route

#11 Haleigh's school bus stop

#12 Railroad crossing at Buffalo Bluff Road where track dog lost scent

 

[sarx]

Thanks for the map.
Where is the pond?
And
Am I looking at this correctly that the dog ended right near the bus stop for school that she used?

 

[Concerned Papa]

Thanks for the map.
Where is the pond?
And
Am I looking at this correctly that the dog ended right near the bus stop for school that she used?

Yes the bus stop is very near to the RR crossing and the Pond is #2 on the map's legend.

 

[sarx]

Ok, ignore the part about where is the pond.... I can read, honestly!

Where is the river in relation to all this?

 

[Concerned Papa]

Ok, ignore the part about where is the pond.... I can read, honestly!

Where is the river in relation to all this?

+/- 1100' thru the woods from the back door:

 

[sarx]

Was the pond ever searched by water cadaver dogs?

Looking at the map it would not surprise me if the initial dog was following her residual scent around the subdivision from taking that route all the time. If she had ended up in the water (pond), it would theoretically be possible for the dog to trail her freshest scent from the house to the pond, then once at the pond lose the fresh scent (say because she was in the pond), at which time the dog would pick up an older trail (I'm assuming that she had been to this pond many times before) and then continue on with a well traveled path/route of hers.

THIS IS TOTAL SPECULATION AND HYPOTHETICAL, but it is possible in terms of what a dog could/would do given the circumstances.

 

[Whisperer]

Where was the PIC taken of Haleigh and rc fishing and when?

 

[DenVIP]

Where was the PIC taken of Haleigh and rc fishing and when?

im not sure, but ill look and see

 

[Whisperer]

Thanks, Kimster. I'd be interested to hear her opinion regarding the three cadaver dogs hitting on the dumpster. Can she explain why that would happen if there was no postmortem organic matter in the dumpster? Or can we safely assume that there was such material in the dumpster though the source was not evident?

Persoanlly, I cannot imagine post-mortem matter being located in a constructin dumpster. That is not the way Nursing Homes or any facility disposes of human matter. IIRC, the cadaver dogs scent was located in one right lower corner of the dumpster. I sometimes wonder if the body or blanket was placed temporarly under or near the box.