Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 Jun 2014 - #12

[Female]

It might indeed be very gruesome, but gruesome would explain the drag marks spanning 24 feet from the side door to the parking pad at the front of the house. Either someone was still alive and was bleeding while being dragged (unlikely), or there were body parts being dragged.

Or they were dragged in a blood soaked item. That would help with leverage to move dead weight. That's already been previously discussed here though of course. Wish they would give us some new material to work with. The theories are getting a bit ummm out of this world?

 

[Lalalacasbah]

Just wondering how he is related to AL? Sorry guys I am very confused by this large family tree

I think GL's relation was posted earlier in this thread, I can't remember the exact relation though, sorry…It is very confusing indeed!

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

With all due respect...how do we know for a FACT that there was [B]"a house full and farm full of physical forensic evidence"[/B] We only know what we are being told.

As for logic...trying to make logic out of something illogical is pretty tough to do. And I'm of the opinion that many great detectives also rely hugely on their intuition and "gut feelings" on cases, so I don't see any reason that we can't share some of our "gut feelings" or intuitive insights while discussing this in this Forum.

Reporters may have experience that we don't have on crime scenes but many (not pointing fingers at any one in particular) do not accurately report what is actually going on. I have read several articles in this case on the very same subject and have read differing descriptions of the event...so....I wouldn't necessarily rely on any reporters judgement (no offense newtalk) that wasn't LE or Government appointed. Even then, we've got Crown Forensic Psychiatrists that report untruths and assumptions in court.

Because this case has so many extenuating circumstances on both sides that do cause one to raise their eyebrows and go "hmmm"...I would probably want some cold h ard evidence...like bodies, or partial remains at the very least of the deceased...to prove that they are not still alive...because there is good cause to believe, IMO, that a voluntary disappearance here is entirely possible.

So, if someone were to speculate that it was an alien abduction, and we can't trust everything LE says because the charges against DG are just a cover up and LE is in on it... We haven't seen any facts that it wasn't an alien abduction... Would you scoff at it, or applaud it?

Or would you say, come on... Look at this and this and this... How can you possibly think it's aliens? Sure anything is possible, but when you look at the reality...

 

[julydarling]

Oy. Coming back after a day of being away... uh, some interesting reads.

I personally cant see le going to the lengths suggested of faking charges and such just to ferret someone out.
Can you imagine the outrage that not only the family but this ENTIRE city would feel?
In the midst of what just xame out with allison redfords spending I am fairly sure that someones head would role (figuratively speaking) to waste excess resources on this case.

 

[julydarling]

And sorry for typos... on my phone

 

[locomouse]

"Police are not looking for any other suspects. The police chief would not speculate on motive, saying the matter was to go before the courts."

http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/0...-obrien-amber-alert-and-missing-grandparents/

I am new to WS and want to say thank you for the opportunity to read and digest so much information from the intelligent and caring posters here. This case won't let me rest and I have read every word from everyone here.

I only want to share (because I'll go crazy if I don't) MOO about what may have transpired on the night that AL, KL and NO disappeared. If (and only if) DG had masterminded this tragedy, I can't help but think he did not act alone. I understand that LE are reporting otherwise, but that might very well be a ruse to flush out another party who may feel that "the heat is off" and might confide the victory to a friend, acquaintance or even a perfect stranger in a bar. It wouldn't be the first time.

I'm thinking that during the whole estate sale event... so many people coming and going... probably chaos reigned most of the last day... that someone known to (and in cahoots with) DG was in the house that last day, posing as a potential customer. During the confusion of a house full of people browsing, bartering, buying and having conversations, he or she slipped down to the basement (or another part of the house) and hid until the lights were out and everyone went to bed.

DG's pickup truck was circling the vicinity. More than once it was caught on the same CCTV of the house a few doors down from AL & KL's home. Why? Maybe waiting to hear, via Walkie-Talkie (too clever to implement a cell phone) that the front/back door was unlocked by his accomplice and he was good to come on in.

I believe he/they killed AL or KL in their bed. Whichever adult was left, awoke and tried to get to NO or distract the killers by fleeing to another part of the house. Possibly the living room area, where they also met with their demise. I can't dwell on what happened to NO because I can't sleep at night as it is.

But I think that the three were loaded into DG's truck and driven out to a spot somewhere between Calgary and Airdrie where the accomplice's vehicle was stashed. Bodies of AL and KL were transferred with NO (dead or alive) into that second vehicle which left for God knows where. Not across any borders... but maybe way, way up north.

Jailhouse buddies are notoriously tight. Even for a so-called loner, as DG is being painted. He may have met his cell (read "soul") mate while he was incarcerated.

I haven't come up with a motive yet. Just a means. And it's all just my own tortured thoughts.

Hopefully someone can disabuse me of this mindset. I'd surely appreciate it.

 

[Cherchri]

No sir! And why is a precedent required? They're conducting an investigation. That usually denotes methodology, process, creativity and gut instincts, not precedent. Each investigation is unique. Actually, if you look at the way undercover LE work, they are setting this precedent everytime...doesn't matter how big or how small the investigation is they're working on...they are continuously not presenting the truth in order to catch the criminal.

But a legal precedent is predicated on a trial that has taken place. It is on record as the first of its kind. In this case someone was asking if you could cite such a precedent. This would call for circumstances to be similar vis-a-vis LE's process in gathering evidence and what was inferred..... That they are withholding information and may in fact be shamming ( I paraphrase from a few speculative posts ).

 

[Cherchri]

:wagon:

I am new to WS and want to say thank you for the opportunity to read and digest so much information from the intelligent and caring posters here. This case won't let me rest and I have read every word from everyone here.

I only want to share (because I'll go crazy if I don't) MOO about what may have transpired on the night that AL, KL and NO disappeared. If (and only if) DG had masterminded this tragedy, I can't help but think he did not act alone. I understand that LE are reporting otherwise, but that might very well be a ruse to flush out another party who may feel that "the heat is off" and might confide the victory to a friend, acquaintance or even a perfect stranger in a bar. It wouldn't be the first time.

I'm thinking that during the whole estate sale event... so many people coming and going... probably chaos reigned most of the last day... that someone known to (and in cahoots with) DG was in the house that last day, posing as a potential customer. During the confusion of a house full of people browsing, bartering, buying and having conversations, he or she slipped down to the basement (or another part of the house) and hid until the lights were out and everyone went to bed.

DG's pickup truck was circling the vicinity. More than once it was caught on the same CCTV of the house a few doors down from AL & KL's home. Why? Maybe waiting to hear, via Walkie-Talkie (too clever to implement a cell phone) that the front/back door was unlocked by his accomplice and he was good to come on in.

I believe he/they killed AL or KL in their bed. Whichever adult was left, awoke and tried to get to NO or distract the killers by fleeing to another part of the house. Possibly the living room area, where they also met with their demise. I can't dwell on what happened to NO because I can't sleep at night as it is.

But I think that the three were loaded into DG's truck and driven out to a spot somewhere between Calgary and Airdrie where the accomplice's vehicle was stashed. Bodies of AL and KL were transferred with NO (dead or alive) into that second vehicle which left for God knows where. Not across any borders... but maybe way, way up north.

Jailhouse buddies are notoriously tight. Even for a so-called loner, as DG is being painted. He may have met his cell (read "soul") mate while he was incarcerated.

I haven't come up with a motive yet. Just a means. And it's all just my own tortured thoughts.

Hopefully someone can disabuse me of this mindset. I'd surely appreciate it.

Welcome!
:welcome3:

 

[Krystine]

Ah! Very interesting! I did however include process and methodology as part of the investigative process...that would denote fact-finding, maybe I should have made myself more clear.

The original discussion that precluded my comment was actually...did I have any precedent that has been set wherein the LE and Crown purposely mislead the public in their investigation as a method to solving a crime. I was simply pointing out that precedent was not required as part of the investigative process and that any means as long as it wasn't criminal could be used to justify the end, IMO. I wasn't pretending to know what the entire investigative process was nor was I suggesting that I knew of any cases where certain investigative methods were used. It is very interesting information though, thanks!

There are a lot of different languages being spoken here. I think sillybilly was asking you to supply an example of a trial where it is known that LE and Crown prosecutors mislead the public, and this was uncovered and lead to a successful conviction or no conviction.
This is no place for generalities, you need to supply a link.
No one was asking for a precedent for methodology of solving a crime. In fact that makes no sense, at all.

 

[news.talk]

I am new to WS and want to say thank you for the opportunity to read and digest so much information from the intelligent and caring posters here. This case won't let me rest and I have read every word from everyone here.

I only want to share (because I'll go crazy if I don't) MOO about what may have transpired on the night that AL, KL and NO disappeared. If (and only if) DG had masterminded this tragedy, I can't help but think he did not act alone. I understand that LE are reporting otherwise, but that might very well be a ruse to flush out another party who may feel that "the heat is off" and might confide the victory to a friend, acquaintance or even a perfect stranger in a bar. It wouldn't be the first time.

I'm thinking that during the whole estate sale event... so many people coming and going... probably chaos reigned most of the last day... that someone known to (and in cahoots with) DG was in the house that last day, posing as a potential customer. During the confusion of a house full of people browsing, bartering, buying and having conversations, he or she slipped down to the basement (or another part of the house) and hid until the lights were out and everyone went to bed.

DG's pickup truck was circling the vicinity. More than once it was caught on the same CCTV of the house a few doors down from AL & KL's home. Why? Maybe waiting to hear, via Walkie-Talkie (too clever to implement a cell phone) that the front/back door was unlocked by his accomplice and he was good to come on in.

I believe he/they killed AL or KL in their bed. Whichever adult was left, awoke and tried to get to NO or distract the killers by fleeing to another part of the house. Possibly the living room area, where they also met with their demise. I can't dwell on what happened to NO because I can't sleep at night as it is.

But I think that the three were loaded into DG's truck and driven out to a spot somewhere between Calgary and Airdrie where the accomplice's vehicle was stashed. Bodies of AL and KL were transferred with NO (dead or alive) into that second vehicle which left for God knows where. Not across any borders... but maybe way, way up north.

Jailhouse buddies are notoriously tight. Even for a so-called loner, as DG is being painted. He may have met his cell (read "soul") mate while he was incarcerated.

I haven't come up with a motive yet. Just a means. And it's all just my own tortured thoughts.

Hopefully someone can disabuse me of this mindset. I'd surely appreciate it.

My guess is that LE has evidence (computer, journal, etc) that suggests the planning and execution of this crime was committed by one suspect.

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

Hey thanks! You are right...I thought something was off there. There doesn't have to be a precedent for the way a crime is investigated, as long is the investigation itself is not criminal, the means justify the ends. Investigative work is not only methodical (which suggests a process and not a precedent), it is also intuitive and requires creativity and imagination as well...I don't know what the precedent is for that.

I think someone was actually asking you for some case examples of where LE, the coroner, and the Crown all teamed up to falsify some charges against one person, to smoke out the "real story" or the "real criminals". Precedent was the wrong word to use.

Please give us some real life examples of the conspiracy bait and switch law enforcement tactic.

 

[Krystine]

:wagon:

Welcome!
:welcome3:

Welcome. And thanks for a fresh perspective!
I have been sitting on the fence about a second attacker/mover/lookout person, and have not ruled it out, although most disagree.
I have little frame of reference on what it would take to commit a triple murder, but it seems to me it would be a huge, labour intensive act for one person.
Even petty criminals know enough to hide their actions, (behind bushes, fences) yet I have trouble believing in a pre-meditated multiple murder, carried out by a street smart, hardened criminal (s), vehicles would be left idling or otherwise in the driveway of the crime location, in suburban Calgary. Highly risky for someone taking the trouble to remove the bodies to remove all trace evidence.
We might find out we were wrong, but even being right doesn't bring the deceased back.

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

I am new to WS and want to say thank you for the opportunity to read and digest so much information from the intelligent and caring posters here. This case won't let me rest and I have read every word from everyone here.

I only want to share (because I'll go crazy if I don't) MOO about what may have transpired on the night that AL, KL and NO disappeared. If (and only if) DG had masterminded this tragedy, I can't help but think he did not act alone. I understand that LE are reporting otherwise, but that might very well be a ruse to flush out another party who may feel that "the heat is off" and might confide the victory to a friend, acquaintance or even a perfect stranger in a bar. It wouldn't be the first time.

I'm thinking that during the whole estate sale event... so many people coming and going... probably chaos reigned most of the last day... that someone known to (and in cahoots with) DG was in the house that last day, posing as a potential customer. During the confusion of a house full of people browsing, bartering, buying and having conversations, he or she slipped down to the basement (or another part of the house) and hid until the lights were out and everyone went to bed.

DG's pickup truck was circling the vicinity. More than once it was caught on the same CCTV of the house a few doors down from AL & KL's home. Why? Maybe waiting to hear, via Walkie-Talkie (too clever to implement a cell phone) that the front/back door was unlocked by his accomplice and he was good to come on in.

I believe he/they killed AL or KL in their bed. Whichever adult was left, awoke and tried to get to NO or distract the killers by fleeing to another part of the house. Possibly the living room area, where they also met with their demise. I can't dwell on what happened to NO because I can't sleep at night as it is.

But I think that the three were loaded into DG's truck and driven out to a spot somewhere between Calgary and Airdrie where the accomplice's vehicle was stashed. Bodies of AL and KL were transferred with NO (dead or alive) into that second vehicle which left for God knows where. Not across any borders... but maybe way, way up north.

Jailhouse buddies are notoriously tight. Even for a so-called loner, as DG is being painted. He may have met his cell (read "soul") mate while he was incarcerated.

I haven't come up with a motive yet. Just a means. And it's all just my own tortured thoughts.

Hopefully someone can disabuse me of this mindset. I'd surely appreciate it.

Given the interview with the neighbor that went into the house with the mover, and said the rug was pulled up, and the wall was cleaned, should we be speculating that he wasn't all the way in the bedroom while looking at that, and possibly in the living room?

 

[Lalalacasbah]

Or they were dragged in a blood soaked item. That would help with leverage to move dead weight. That's already been previously discussed here though of course. Wish they would give us some new material to work with. The theories are getting a bit ummm out of this world?

Agreed, any severely wounded or multiple wounded person(s) would leave those marks covered or uncovered (probably covered for discreetness). I don't think you have to be alive for that IMO, blood is blood and if something or someone is covered in it, it's going to leave a trail.

I think LawyerMama (sp?) mentioned early on in this thread the other 'swirly' marks could have been from a wheelbarrow and I say 'bingo!' to that. I think wheels myself but a wheelbarrow is a perfect guess as it could easily come from a farm and maybe LE found forensics tying the wheelbarrow to the acreage/DG and the wheelbarrow maybe had DNA from one/all victims. Just thoughts...

 

[Carli]

I think someone was actually asking you for some case examples of where LE, the coroner, and the Crown all teamed up to falsify some charges against one person, to smoke out the "real story" or the "real criminals". Precedent was the wrong word to use.

Please give us some real life examples of the conspiracy bait and switch law enforcement tactic.

Actually, I suggest there are numerous examples where two out of three of the the above have "teamed up" as you put it, with the third entity too lazy or too busy to properly enter the fray. Grant it, the only examples I can come up with at this point would be situations where police are lying to protect themselves - ie the Dziekański case in Vancouver. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Dzieka%C5%84ski_Taser_incident While this is not an example of tainted investigations used to charge and possibly convict an innocent person, it does demonstrate that, historically, some LE have been willing to engage in that approach.

Awfully tricky, though. http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-46/section-465.html

b) every one who conspires with any one to prosecute a person for an alleged offence, knowing that he did not commit that offence, is guilty of an indictable offence and liable

(i) to imprisonment for a term not exceeding ten years, if the alleged offence is one for which, on conviction, that person would be liable to be sentenced to imprisonment for life or for a term not exceeding fourteen years, or

(ii) to imprisonment for a term not exceeding five years, if the alleged offence is one for which, on conviction, that person would be liable to imprisonment for less than fourteen years;

 

[Female]

So here's one of my thoughts. Particularly about why I think there is so much evidence or sloppiness if you will. I think DG wasn't concerned about the cops suspecting him. I think his strategy was to be so confident in his disposal skills that the crime scene stuff didn't matter. I think he may not have been as aware as he should have been that charges of murder can be laid and stuck with no bodies. Otherwise I honestly think he would have taken more precautions regarding the crime scenes. And let's be honest, he's done a good job disposal wise.

Also, I'd like them to drain that slough but keep the water somewhere for testing bit by bit. If I were to chemically alter remains, I think a body of water would be an ideal spot to finish things off. And enter in the black SUV with recent tracks that we've heard nothing about...

all my opinion only. Nothing here touches on confidential info. I'm allowed to have theories too.

 

[winnnancy]

Welcome. And thanks for a fresh perspective!
I have been sitting on the fence about a second attacker/mover/lookout person, and have not ruled it out, although most disagree.
I have little frame of reference on what it would take to commit a triple murder, but it seems to me it would be a huge, labour intensive act for one person.
Even petty criminals know enough to hide their actions, (behind bushes, fences) yet I have trouble believing in a pre-meditated multiple murder, carried out by a street smart, hardened criminal (s), vehicles would be left idling or otherwise in the driveway of the crime location, in suburban Calgary. Highly risky for someone taking the trouble to remove the bodies to remove all trace evidence.
We might find out we were wrong, but even being right doesn't bring the deceased back.

Sometimes the best hiding place is front and centre, right in the open

 

[Lalalacasbah]

I am new to WS and want to say thank you for the opportunity to read and digest so much information from the intelligent and caring posters here. This case won't let me rest and I have read every word from everyone here.

I only want to share (because I'll go crazy if I don't) MOO about what may have transpired on the night that AL, KL and NO disappeared. If (and only if) DG had masterminded this tragedy, I can't help but think he did not act alone. I understand that LE are reporting otherwise, but that might very well be a ruse to flush out another party who may feel that "the heat is off" and might confide the victory to a friend, acquaintance or even a perfect stranger in a bar. It wouldn't be the first time.

I'm thinking that during the whole estate sale event... so many people coming and going... probably chaos reigned most of the last day... that someone known to (and in cahoots with) DG was in the house that last day, posing as a potential customer. During the confusion of a house full of people browsing, bartering, buying and having conversations, he or she slipped down to the basement (or another part of the house) and hid until the lights were out and everyone went to bed.

DG's pickup truck was circling the vicinity. More than once it was caught on the same CCTV of the house a few doors down from AL & KL's home. Why? Maybe waiting to hear, via Walkie-Talkie (too clever to implement a cell phone) that the front/back door was unlocked by his accomplice and he was good to come on in.

I believe he/they killed AL or KL in their bed. Whichever adult was left, awoke and tried to get to NO or distract the killers by fleeing to another part of the house. Possibly the living room area, where they also met with their demise. I can't dwell on what happened to NO because I can't sleep at night as it is.

But I think that the three were loaded into DG's truck and driven out to a spot somewhere between Calgary and Airdrie where the accomplice's vehicle was stashed. Bodies of AL and KL were transferred with NO (dead or alive) into that second vehicle which left for God knows where. Not across any borders... but maybe way, way up north.

Jailhouse buddies are notoriously tight. Even for a so-called loner, as DG is being painted. He may have met his cell (read "soul") mate while he was incarcerated.

I haven't come up with a motive yet. Just a means. And it's all just my own tortured thoughts.

Hopefully someone can disabuse me of this mindset. I'd surely appreciate it.

I think this is quite possible. I, myself am quite open minded about a second person being involved even though LE says not (maybe to not create panic to the public, but let the family know they could be surveilling someone else on the down low). I try to put it out of my head, but something nags me that DG might've had help somewhere along the line…But the loner theory works also, and makes perfect sense also.

Also the man interviewed in the paper who got to go in the house while movers where there stated they were cleaning the walls, I got the impression he didn't go snoop around their bedroom and he probably was in view of a wall in a common area close to the entrance (living room), so it's possible one person might've met their demise there as you say.

ETA - I just read OutOfTheDArkness has same question/comment about the man in article/living room

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

Actually, I suggest there are numerous examples where two out of three of the the above have "teamed up" as you put it, with the third entity too lazy or too busy to properly enter the fray. Grant it, the only examples I can come up with at this point would be situations where police are lying to protect themselves - ie the Dziekański case in Vancouver. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Dzieka%C5%84ski_Taser_incident While this is not an example of tainted investigations used to charge and possibly convict an innocent person, it does demonstrate that, historically, some LE have been willing to engage in that approach.

So that was a no, you don't have a real life example.

A group of people conspiring to keep themselves out of serious legal trouble, which happens regularly in all walks of life, is nothing like the "charge someone to smoke out the people faking their deaths" theory.

And just so no one feels argued with, what I am doing is asking for some sort of proof or logic that this theory is remotely plausible. [modsnip]

 

[Tinkerbel1]

I highly doubt the Chief Medical Examiner, the Chief of Police and the Crown Prosecutor are all in collusion to fake murder charges and railroad an innocent man. I'm sorry, but the victims are NOT in Panama or anywhere else alive.

The preponderance of evidence necessary for the Crown to file homicide charges is exponentially higher when there are no bodies. They are keeping information from the public so they can protect their case - nothing more.

I didn't think they were all in collusion to "railroad" and innocent man, perhaps they have his cooperation? Doesn't anyone on this site watch TV? (I actually don't but I've seen/heard enough snippets here and there to get the idea of things that go on out there). There's a huge concern re: television shows nowadays, and movies, and music being in some regards a huge negative factor on people, particularly the youth in the world today. Is it that inconceivable that perhaps this is not what it seems?

Are we so naïve and/or narrow-minded to believe everything that we hear without questioning it? All of the above people are absolutely capable, and likely quite within their positions in our Federal/Provincial and Municipal systems and the law to use the next 30 days to proceed with the investigation as they see fit in order to get this crime solved. l don't understand why the possibility of this is so difficult to fathom? Because it would in our opinion, unethical? May I remind you of our recently resigned Premier?She held the highest government position in the Province, and look what she got away with. I don't think there were very many people in this Province that suspected her of being crooked and perhaps being involved in fraudulent use of taxpayers money....but look what happened there...and it continues...the deeper they dig, the more they find...and she present

I am in no way suggesting that our LE agencies/departments are being unethical/negligent or anything else derogatory...I'm simply suggesting that maybe, just maybe they have come up with a bit of a twist on investigative procedures. The fact is...no one except LE know what there is for evidence...so there was blood? An awful lot of blood can come from a bleeding nose...so there were drag marks...they've never confirmed the substance was blood, so DG drove his truck in the neighborhood...maybe he was interested in the garage sale, so they put tents up at the acreage...it was pretty hot out while they were searching...the fact is for sure...that no one but they know what is going on here...

"Never judge a book by its cover"..."looks can be deceiving"..."things aren't always as they seem"... "there's more to things than meet the eye"....

and, it can also be said...

"if it looks like a duck,walks like a duck and sounds like a duck...chances are....

Only time will tell. Until then, I don't think we should be so quick to judge anything...until we know for sure because absolutely anything is possible.