Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 Jun 2014 - #14

[Blue Amethyst]

Today I went back to the timeline about DG. Thanks so much to sillybilly for providing it. For some reason I had pictured DG going to work in BC after he left university. Then I realized he was 32 years old when he went out there when they found the meth lab in 1992. So from age 20 to 32 did he make his money off drugs? What did he do to get prohibited weapons charges in 1998 and an assault charge in 1989. Did he still live with his parents then?

So he worked in BC until he was 39, then in trouble again with another weapons charge and the stealing of the tractor-trailer unit. Then he goes to jail and is out in 2000 so now he is 40. Did he come back and live with his parents then for the next 14 years? Did he work at all in that time? Forty acres isn't much to make a living on for two families. Must be why he drove such an old truck.

He does seem a bit of a mystery man. I hope they can check his tax records for income or is it like he didn't really exist so didn't need much of anything. I wonder if he did rent motels for the shadier side of his life. It is like he lived under the radar.

I just wonder if he was furious at the L family for something more than a patent that didn't work. Maybe the answer did lie in Mexico.

 

[Deleted member 117120]

I have asked myself the very same questions. I am not knowledgeable or experienced enough in the legal side to know if such misleading behavior would be illegal/unethical.

One thing that did get me thinking--perhaps LE discouraged the civilian searches for this very reason--there was nothing left to be found. However, I fully admit that I think it more probably that the former officer I am speaking of was perhaps speculating or had heard a rumor and taken it to be fact. I am, however, somewhat surprised at just the lack of information...it might be just me, but it seems like, with most other cases, such as Tori Stafford for instance, there are usually updates given on searches taking place, speculative theories etc... but the only news I have noted regarding the case is that LE expanded the investigation into Mexico which is very old news at this point...

Thanks Jay. I have wondered this myself due to the lack of info, media updates, family silence etc. I don't believe LE is misleading anyone. IMO I believe as your post said, the bodies were found in part on the farm. Perhaps when LE said they would continue to look for the victims what they are actually saying is they will look for the other parts that weren't found without going into gruesome adjectives. So, I don't think LE is being unprofessional instead I think they are being very cautious and rightfully so. Thanks for the intel Jay it certainly confirms many thoughts I had all along since DG arrest. Hopefully if this is correct, there could be a chance DG will plead guilty and not go to trail. That would be the best scenario for the family.

 

[YYC Lady]

If true, I wonder if added charges such as indignity to a human body (or something to that effect) will be brought about at some point.

 

[winnnancy]

Absolutely! That in no way compromises the case, in fact, I would imagined it would only strengthen it. I can't imagine a scenario where keeping that information serves the best interest of a case.

Unless they aren't sure they have the right person and a plea bargain for info puts the bodies where they " were" found? Wouldn't this confirm it was the responsible party.

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

Unless they aren't sure they have the right person and a plea bargain for info puts the bodies where they " were" found? Wouldn't this confirm it was the responsible party.

No. By now, LE was required to turn over any evidence they have that is relevant to the charges to the defence. (Disclosure) They could not keep that a secret at this point, just like if they were hiding a victim in witness protection. Thankfully, that debate is now over.

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

During interviews Police Chief Hansen has stated that they came to the conclusion it was now a homicide even though they have not recovered the bodies. I strongly believe they could not ever mislead the public in such a way (that they do have the bodies). It would be a huge breach of trust and could jeopardize any future cases of missing people, along with so many other endless problems this would cause.

It all depends on your definition of body. If they found charred remains of a finger, do they say they have recovered a body, or do they say they are still looking for a body... like they are doing now...

 

[otto]

Re: compromising the septic system...it's gruesome, but if you ask the rural septic tank people, they will tell you the best thing to keep your septic system cleared is to throw a cat into the septic tank every year...I got that from the guy who claims to be #1 in the Number 2 business.
No, we didn't...but that has stuck in my mind for a lot of years...

I think what he meant to say is: keep a healthy bacteria level in the septic tank. If the bacteria is killed with cleaning products (and it doesn't take much), or plugged up with a human body, the septic tank stops working, fills up, backs up, and can result in the pipes to the septic field needing to be replaced. It's an expensive lesson about what not to put into the septic tank ... in my opinion.

 

[otto]

Do we need to choose a side right now??
I don't see Cherchri insisting her theory is the correct one...she is very clearly suggesting this could have been the disposal method. Until the truth comes out, can't we entertain others' careful research and well thought out opinions?

The nice thing about this website is that it is respectful, and all viewpoints are welcome.
That's why I like it here.

 

[otto]

Do we need to choose a side right now??
I don't see Cherchri insisting her theory is the correct one...she is very clearly suggesting this could have been the disposal method. Until the truth comes out, can't we entertain others' careful research and well thought out opinions?

Regarding the question of whether the bodies will be found (not necessarily intact), or whether they have been disintegrated, that seems to be first question to answer. If they have vanished, never to be seen again - not even in bone form, the question is: How? (my opinion).

Several methods have been suggested for how they vanished on the Airdrie acreage:

• buried (perhaps in a bunker),
• put in a sealed contained with lye (what happens next with remains and equipment?),
• put in the bathtub with caustic soda, also known as lye or sodium hydroxide (problematic for the septic tank),
• incinerated in one of the incinerators on the property (shouldn't there be bone fragments?)
• that one of the cisterns on the property was pressurized to vaporize the family (were investigators particularly interested in barrels/tanks?),
• that they were burned in a pit or burning barrel

... did I miss anything?

This is in spite of the fact that police have said that they did not locate the missing persons on the Airdrie acreage, and are still actively searching to bring resolution to the families. Did they find bone fragments? Perhaps ... but there are three missing persons. Are they finished searching after finding bone fragments?

 

[deugirtni]

Imho, I can't see LE piling up what they believe to be evidence like that. Take it all out of its location and just pile it all up? I could more see them wrapping/bagging each piece of evidence individually, carefully photographing and noting its location in regard to other 'finds', etc. How do we know all of that stuff wasn't already out there?

Some people aren't able to open my attachments so trying again
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[otto]

We have no way of knowing if a one time exposure to lye and chemicals would compromise a rural septic system. But for all we know, the septic might have backed up, which could explain DG's elderly parents having vacated the house for so long.
Maybe the evidence is of that nature. Maybe one explanation for the hazmat suits??
I think it's a viable theory, ...whether you want to believe a 'science guy' could calculate that, and maybe throw something alive in there to maintain the balance...or whether someone in the adrenaline rush of having murdered 3 people would even be considering possible septic problems.

The hazmat suit photo is from the first crime scene: Parkhill residence. The chemicals would kill the bacteria, then whatever is put into the septic tank would not break down ... what was in the tank would stop breaking down ... the bacteria needs to build up again.

 

[otto]

I have a really hard time believing the police chief would use his comments 'piece by piece by piece' to hint towards body parts. I doubt he was so tricky with his words, he may as well just said, 'We have blood and DNA results that confirm the deaths of three victims', but he hasn't said this either.

That must have been from an earlier statement. At that time, the investigation was pursued in several different directions. I understood that they were putting those pieces together until they had a single piece to pursue. That's more or less what happened: They interviewed estate sale people, checked video surveillance on the night of June 29/30, checked Mexico, checked family, looked into bank records, patents, business history ... and sure enough business, family, patent, and green truck intersected. The first evidence comment that I remember was that the missing people did not leave voluntarily. The last evidence comment made by police was that the victims are deceased. It was reported that lab results were expedited for the sake of finding the victims. I think something at the first crime scene confirmed that all three victims were deceased, but DNA analysis was necessary to confirm that all three were victims.

 

[otto]

The following was posted by Otto yesterday, however, it doesn't indicate that they are actually actively looking now, nor where they may be looking either. So, I have a feeling that the search effort has likely been wound down. JMO due to lack of indication where exactly they are looking.

August 20, 2014

"Police have been searching for the bodies of Alvin and Kathryn Liknes and Nathan O’Brien since they disappeared at the end of June. ... Despite what they’re up against, Cavilla says they continue to push for closure.

“The investigators continue to work diligently and long hours, until such time we’re able to provide answers to the family.”"
http://globalnews.ca/news/1518228/hi...lice-officers/

I think that it is possible that the long hours are 16-18 hour days to complete paperwork related to the searches. That would have been discovery contents. The "search" may mean that the answers are in the evidence collected and related lab results.

 

[otto]

One would have to be some kind of stupid to go through the trouble of reducing bodies... no matter how it was done... and then dispose of the waste on your own property like in a septic tank or bunker.

The most probable scenario is an attempted reduction that did not go well, and a dump of what was left in a remote location. Although some keep insisting nothing was found at the acreage, it almost defies logic to think they can tie it to DG without something on the property. His vehicle could have been borrowed or stolen, so if the only evidence is in the house and truck, then LE would have to proceed carefully. Unless he left his own DNA at the scene, there would be nothing concrete, and nothing to explain the "voluminous" amount of evidence.

Perhaps he was burning bedding on the property. That would be evidence tying him to the two crime scenes. Two of the victim's children did a walkthrough of the house to identify what was missing. Maybe there was blood evidence of the victims at the Parkhill home and in the back of the truck.

 

[stan laurel]

If it were an advanced Septic system (very likely), the fats/oils and floating residue would be caught up in the grease trap which is on average about 5 gallons. So the question is, how much fatty/tissue/oil remain from a full grown adult after the body has gassed off and/or become h2o?

 

[otto]

Stupid, genius,...we are only guessing about this person. It's been mentioned before on here, that DG had no way of knowing he would be under surveillance on the Liknes' street that night, and that he'd be brought in within a day or two.
Maybe he considered disposing of the remains in two steps was a fool proof plan, that LE would be baffled. Maybe he thought it was still a world of 'no bodies=no sentence'.
Many of us here are baffled, because bodies don't just vaporize. He has done something right, IMO but that is to be seen.
At this stage I'm not married to either theory, I'm sitting squarely on the fence and not even leaning.

If the photo of the truck is taken at 4AM, then he had already disposed of the bodies before he went home that early June 30. He had a couple of hours - perhaps he put them an hour away (how far is Brooks?) ... and the photo was taken because he returned to hose down the sidewalk and clean up ... leaving with an empty truckbed. Alternatively, the photo was taken closer to 10PM (when it's not entirely dark) and the bodies could be anywhere.

 

[Slebby]

One totally uneducated question about the potential to dissolve the bodies with lye - please bear with me.

We know from posts made here by Cherchi and others that lye can be used to dissolve a body and that DNA evidence would be destroyed. But, could the perp fail in his bid to eliminate the bodies if he failed to use an adequate volume of lye to dissolve the remains?

We can assume that all the remains would be gone if a ton of lye was used. Presumably the remains would not be totally dissolved if only, say, 1 pound of lye was used. There must be an adequate volume (or weight, not actually sure if lye is liquid or solid) used in order to dissolve all the remains totally.

What if DG used lye but didn't use enough? Which might be possible if he had an unexpected need to dispose of an extra body. Is it possible he thought he had completely eliminated the evidence but actually didn't?

IMHO

 

[stan laurel]

Yes another icky job I've had,,,

don't use dead cats/animals to create bacteria,, firstly, it's the wrong kind of bacteria and secondly, the kitties/puppies little bones might clog the lines to the septic field. You can reverse blast a field via line caps but only do this if you hate your spouse, and don't have dinner by candlelight during a steam blast.

always use a powdered bacteria but don't overkill the system with it,, half a cup every two weeks with septonic is plenty.

never ever use grease enzymes to break down grease,, the new grease form will pass to the lines/field but just like some creepy alien in a B-flick, the grease will reconstitute itself in a string like manner and grow in the water that's doing it's thing underground and in the pipes.

65% of los angeles sewer pipes built before 1970 have so much grease that only veins of more viscous liquid can sort of get thru the pipes.

think of this when you have your next BLT with extra bacon,, then think of your heart and your gastro bits and your brain.

bon appetite!!! For the mericans browsing this thread, canucks speak French, poorly.

 

[otto]

This is totally hearsay and I'm not sure I buy it myself, but my uncle has a friend who is former CPS (Calgary Police Service). This man told my uncle that the bodies (or what was left of them) were found early into the investigation. I know this has been speculated at here, but just thought I would throw this is as I've been rolling it over in my head for weeks. I don't know what to think, but I do know this individual I am speaking of is well connected and credible.

Unless I'm missing something,it has been surprising to me that NO's parents have not directly spoken to the media or released a statement regarding hope for finding their child's body for proper burial etc... maybe they already know his fate? I dont know...

One person that was at the property (that was my understanding) tweeted that the bodies had been found, no one else tweeted, the original remark was removed.

I don't think the bodies were found, but perhaps remnants of bodies were found. Blood? Bone? Evidence of liquefaction? What could it be?

Who are Nathan's parents going to appeal to? The police are already searching, and the public has been asked to not search. Who is left?

 

[deugirtni]

Imho, if LE had found the bodies, no matter what state the bodies were in, they would have announced it, much like this statement which LE made when the remains of Tim Bosma were found:

"We are convinced by the totality of the evidence that these are the remains of Tim Bosma," De Caire said. "The evidence indicates that the remains were burned."

That quote doesn't really indicate to me that it was cut and dried as to exactly what they found or that they could prove 100% was exactly was found, or that every piece of his body was found, but whatever was found, it was enough for LE to be 'convinced', and make a statement to that effect. Why would they not do the same in this case, if that were the case?
Of course it could be said that there were no trace of remains to be found, however I have a difficult time believing that one, at least in such a short time frame.
http://www.brantfordexpositor.ca/2013/05/14/police-update-tim-bosma-case