Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 Jun 2014 - #14

[Lalalacasbah]

I'm sure that the two year old is aware of the loss, but he's still a 2 year old. I think the oldest child's mom is making his lunches and looking after his day to day care.

In the murders of cousins Lyric Cook and Elizabeth Collins; Evansdale Iowa, there were younger siblings that needed to continue on a normal life path, and the parents, although still focused on finding the murderer several years later, had to go forward with life. During World War 2, Jewish babies were smothered to death while their parents hid from the Germans. The parents went on to tell the story ... so they went forward with their lives fast - for survival.

Although no one denies the grief of losing a child, younger siblings have to be treated appropriate for their age, and that does not involve grieving for months ... at least, in my opinion, it doesn't seem like an ideal environment for a toddler. Imagine ... tired grieving parents, two year old gives the laptop a drink by pouring a juice box all over the keyboard ... what happens next. Parents can focus on the live child in front of them, put Nathan to rest, and look to the future. That seems to me to be the healthiest thing to do. They will always cherish the memories of their first born child.

I agree, I was just responding as to the topic of why the memorial was held so soon - I was saying they are possibly trying to get back on track with day to day life, going forward and tending to their family by having the memorial as a step towards some type of closure process that will probably never truly end. The memorial might be a first step for them, the first of many.

 

[news.talk]

Me too Cherchri, this case just gripped me. Nathan has very similar features (hair, eyes) as my little one has, maybe that's why I clung onto this story so bad and joined WS to discuss. Such an innocent little soul, hope he's resting now.

I am with you 100%! Even a cold hearted old news hound like me, can't help but see my own son, who looked hauntingly similar to NO at that age, and feel immense pain. [emoji22]

 

[Lalalacasbah]

How could anything be normal?

Exactly. It's not, but they might be trying. By normal I mean showering, eating, feeding their toddler, day to day tasks we all take for granted that might seem like huge, hard things to do for someone grieving.

 

[otto]

I agree... As I stated before, I am in NO position to judge the decisions of the family, but I can't help but find the timing questionable - As in why now? Has something changed?

Are you thinking that the family was given some sort of confirmation that the victims are deceased in the form of irrefutable information? That was available when Chief Hanson announced that there was irrefutable information that the three victims were deceased ... so that's not new information. They're deceased. If something changed, it could be the length of time since the murders and the necessity for the family to go forward with their lives as they are today.

 

[Tinkerbel1]

The blog remarks were made by Rob Tripp, a crime reporter. He references the University of Tennessee study and links a book and a temperature website. The actual article that he should rely on for his calculations is the article that I linked, which includes the actual formula (linked). The blogger states that the average temp in Calgary in July was 18C, and for the first 24 days of August, the average temp was 17C.
That gives us a working average temp of roughly 17.5 C.

Using the formula, y=1285/x --> y=1285/17.5 --> y=73 days to skeleton. That will happen next week.

The blogger claims that the month of July plus 24 days in August is three times what is necessary for bodies to be reduced to skeleton in Calgary. I have to wonder what formula he used, and how he did his calculations to arrive at that conclusion.

https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/6551567.Rob_Tripp/blog

Perhaps I'm missing something, as I do not understand the bloggers calculations. This is the information from the University of Tennessee:

"Decomposition is a complicated process, but is primarily dependant on temperature and to a lesser extent on moisture. In our studies we have worked out a simple formula, which describes the soft tissue decomposition process for persons lying on the ground. The formula is y=1285/x (where y is the number of days it takes to become skeletonized or mummified and x is the average temperature in Centigrade during the decomposition process). So, if the average temperature is 10 °C, then 1285/10 = 128.5 days for someone to become skeletonized."

http://www.archeo.uw.edu.pl/zalaczniki/upload617.pdf

Perhaps someone can double check the calculations. Given the average temperatures in July, August, and Sept, is total decomposition roughly 75 days, or is it 1/3 of 55 days ~ 18 days (per the crime reporter blogger).

ETA: someone here wanted to discuss math and physics - sorry, don't remember who. Perhaps that person could double check the calculations of the blogger along with my calculations (with the given formula) and voice an opinion.

I'm sorry, I'm confused by the continuous challenging of simple information. What's not to get? The blogger simply quoted Dr. Bass's means of calculations in layman's terms.

Dr. Bass and his researchers at the University of Tennessee developed a formula that charts the decomposition of a human body, based on surrounding temperature. A body is well on its way to skeletonization when it has an ADD (accumulated degree day) total of 800, which could be, for example, 10 days of 80 degree (fahrenheit) weather. The formula is applicable anywhere in the world.

In Calgary in July, the average mean temperature for the month was 18 C (64 F), a figure that would produce an ADD of 1,984 (31 days X 64). The average mean for the first 24 days of August was 17 C (62 F), producing another 1,488 ADD. This is a total ADD of nearly 3,500, nearly three times the amount required for a body to skeletonize. Bass notes, in Beyond the Body Farm (HarperCollins 2007) that “by around 1,250 to 1,300 accumulated-degree-days, a body anywhere in the world would have been reduced to bare bone or bone covered with dry mummified tissue.”

Dr. Bass is a Forensic Anthropologist, from the University of Tennessee as well...why does he have to use the reference material suggested? Perhaps he has used those calculations to come up with his own version? This is his line of work and he is an accredited professional in his field. I really don't understand the argument.

 

[winnnancy]

There is an obituary for NO in the Calgary Herald today. I don't know if we are allowed to post the link, but you can search "Calgary Herald obituaries" to find it.

So sad

 

[YYC Lady]

The obituary makes a point of mentioning that the family has a dedicated spot at a local cemetery for nathan in the future, so I took that to mean they haven't given up hope that he will be found and they will be able to properly lay him to rest.

This case hurts my heart, probably because I also have a little NO lookalike in my life and I just can't imagine losing him.

 

[Blue Amethyst]

The obituary makes a point of mentioning that the family has a dedicated spot at a local cemetery for nathan in the future, so I took that to mean they haven't given up hope that he will be found and they will be able to properly lay him to rest.

This case hurts my heart, probably because I also have a little NO lookalike in my life and I just can't imagine losing him.

Me too. It is so heartbreaking to think the darling little boy will never walk through their door again. Just so sad for the family and friends as well as us here whose hearts are also hurting. I may not come on often but I still read what is said every day. Thanks to everyone who keeps me up on the information.

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

Are you thinking that the family was given some sort of confirmation that the victims are deceased in the form of irrefutable information? That was available when Chief Hanson announced that there was irrefutable information that the three victims were deceased ... so that's not new information. They're deceased. If something changed, it could be the length of time since the murders and the necessity for the family to go forward with their lives as they are today.

The speculation was that perhaps LE somehow let the family know that their 30 day search is at an end, that it produced little or no results, and that the future search looked bleak.

Completely plausible. If I were in the family, I would have spoken to my contact at LE to mention that we were thinking about finally having a memorial, but have been hesitating because the remains may be found. If my contact then said something like, "Having a memorial is probably a good idea."... then that would be enough confirmation for me.

 

[Cherchri]

I am with you 100%! Even a cold hearted old news hound like me, can't help but see my own son, who looked hauntingly similar to NO at that age, and feel immense pain. [emoji22]

My son too. He is 24 now but if I shared a photo of him aged 4 you would think he and NO were brothers.

 

[calgarymom]

I have been following this forum since the beginning but this is my first time posting. This is a such a heartbreaking case and it hits close to home for me. I lost my toddler daughter suddenly and unexpectedly last year, and also have a 5 year old daughter, so opposite of the O family. Although the circumstances are obviously different, my daughter was not the victim of a violent crime, the suddenness and shock and absolute devastation must be similar. I feel so badly for this family and what they are going through. It is a living nightmare that you can never wake up from. There will never be a normal for this family again, or for my own family. Therapists and other parents who have lost children speak of a "new normal" that happens. It sounds cliche but it is true. My husband, daughter and I are somehow living this new normal. It starts by simply getting up, caring for your living child, going to buy groceries, taking a walk to the park, just gradually resuming your daily activities. I hope the memorial service helps the family with their grieving process somehow. I think it's an important step. I think about these families all the time, particularly JO losing her precious little boy. It is unfathomable to me how someone can harm a child. Sorry my post is so long, it must be therapeutic for me.

 

[Tinkerbel1]

I have been following this forum since the beginning but this is my first time posting. This is a such a heartbreaking case and it hits close to home for me. I lost my toddler daughter suddenly and unexpectedly last year, and also have a 5 year old daughter, so opposite of the O family. Although the circumstances are obviously different, my daughter was not the victim of a violent crime, the suddenness and shock and absolute devastation must be similar. I feel so badly for this family and what they are going through. It is a living nightmare that you can never wake up from. There will never be a normal for this family again, or for my own family. Therapists and other parents who have lost children speak of a "new normal" that happens. It sounds cliche but it is true. My husband, daughter and I are somehow living this new normal. It starts by simply getting up, caring for your living child, going to buy groceries, taking a walk to the park, just gradually resuming your daily activities. I hope the memorial service helps the family with their grieving process somehow. I think it's an important step. I think about these families all the time, particularly JO losing her precious little boy. It is unfathomable to me how someone can harm a child. Sorry my post is so long, it must be therapeutic for me.

So, so sorry for your loss...it's a pretty brave thing of you to share your story, and for that matter to be following a forum that must be heartbreaking for you. Although everyone here sympathizes greatly with JO and RO for their loss, you have a special kind of understanding that can only be gained through living it. Thank you for sharing your story with us and helping us to understand even more, how truly devastating this is. Love, light and blessings to you, your husband and daughter to help you through the healing process in the highest and best ways imaginable. May God bless you and your family.

 

[otto]

I agree, I was just responding as to the topic of why the memorial was held so soon - I was saying they are possibly trying to get back on track with day to day life, going forward and tending to their family by having the memorial as a step towards some type of closure process that will probably never truly end. The memorial might be a first step for them, the first of many.

In many ways, two months doesn't seem to soon. The remains are nearly completely skeletonized. Most likely, no new forensic information is available. As a counter example to time in the field and missing DNA, Morgan Harrington's body was left in a remote/secluded location in the fall. Her skeletonized remains, found several months later, still contained DNA. It was almost Winter when she was abducted and murdered. I'm pretty sure that these victims were murdered in their home, that it was a blood bath, and that remains, not bodies, were removed from the residence ... but perhaps that's just me being morbid.

Memorials and remembrances will hopefully be soon held for the remaining two victims. The Medical Examiner, nor the police chief, are going to change their minds about the fact that the victims are deceased.

 

[otto]

I'm sorry, I'm confused by the continuous challenging of simple information. What's not to get? The blogger simply quoted Dr. Bass's means of calculations in layman's terms.

Dr. Bass and his researchers at the University of Tennessee developed a formula that charts the decomposition of a human body, based on surrounding temperature. A body is well on its way to skeletonization when it has an ADD (accumulated degree day) total of 800, which could be, for example, 10 days of 80 degree (fahrenheit) weather. The formula is applicable anywhere in the world.

In Calgary in July, the average mean temperature for the month was 18 C (64 F), a figure that would produce an ADD of 1,984 (31 days X 64). The average mean for the first 24 days of August was 17 C (62 F), producing another 1,488 ADD. This is a total ADD of nearly 3,500, nearly three times the amount required for a body to skeletonize. Bass notes, in Beyond the Body Farm (HarperCollins 2007) that “by around 1,250 to 1,300 accumulated-degree-days, a body anywhere in the world would have been reduced to bare bone or bone covered with dry mummified tissue.”

Dr. Bass is a Forensic Anthropologist, from the University of Tennessee as well...why does he have to use the reference material suggested? Perhaps he has used those calculations to come up with his own version? This is his line of work and he is an accredited professional in his field. I really don't understand the argument.

BBM

There is no challenge to obtain simple information. The crime journalist blogger did not quote anything wrong, he calculated that the bodies would be skeletonized in approximately 1/3 of 55 days, so in 18 days. He's wrong.

I think the quotation marks are missing from the above post.

 

[otto]

The obituary makes a point of mentioning that the family has a dedicated spot at a local cemetery for nathan in the future, so I took that to mean they haven't given up hope that he will be found and they will be able to properly lay him to rest.

This case hurts my heart, probably because I also have a little NO lookalike in my life and I just can't imagine losing him.

Hopefully that rules out speculation that the family has inside information about the investigation ... that's not happening.

 

[otto]

The speculation was that perhaps LE somehow let the family know that their 30 day search is at an end, that it produced little or no results, and that the future search looked bleak.

Completely plausible. If I were in the family, I would have spoken to my contact at LE to mention that we were thinking about finally having a memorial, but have been hesitating because the remains may be found. If my contact then said something like, "Having a memorial is probably a good idea."... then that would be enough confirmation for me.

There was a 30 day requirement for the prosecution to hand discovery to the defence, but there was never a deadline on the searching for a resolution for the family.

The family accidentally spilled that it was a bloody crime scene when Greg Head spoke to the Northern Alberta newspaper that was covering his brother's helicopter aerial photos of a 10km radius of the home. Who paid for that? The articles about the helicopter search never stated that it was donated ... all that was said was that police would review their surface photos for ground disturbance ... but I'm sure that ground disturbance (like a shallow grave) is not their only point of interest.

 

[Tinkerbel1]

BBM

There is no challenge to obtain simple information. The crime journalist blogger did not quote anything wrong, he calculated that the bodies would be skeletonized in approximately 1/3 of 55 days, so in 18 days. He's wrong.

I think the quotation marks are missing from the above post.

The blogger didn't calculate anything. The calculations are based on Dr. Bass' formula that he and his researchers developed. Honestly, if you must be right, then be right. I quite like the simple calculation that Dr. Bass has developed and will use it in the future for my own informational purposes, you may use whatever you like for yours. The fact remains that unfortunately, there will be little more than bones to discover of the missing victims.

 

[Lalalacasbah]

I have been following this forum since the beginning but this is my first time posting. This is a such a heartbreaking case and it hits close to home for me. I lost my toddler daughter suddenly and unexpectedly last year, and also have a 5 year old daughter, so opposite of the O family. Although the circumstances are obviously different, my daughter was not the victim of a violent crime, the suddenness and shock and absolute devastation must be similar. I feel so badly for this family and what they are going through. It is a living nightmare that you can never wake up from. There will never be a normal for this family again, or for my own family. Therapists and other parents who have lost children speak of a "new normal" that happens. It sounds cliche but it is true. My husband, daughter and I are somehow living this new normal. It starts by simply getting up, caring for your living child, going to buy groceries, taking a walk to the park, just gradually resuming your daily activities. I hope the memorial service helps the family with their grieving process somehow. I think it's an important step. I think about these families all the time, particularly JO losing her precious little boy. It is unfathomable to me how someone can harm a child. Sorry my post is so long, it must be therapeutic for me.

Thanks so much for sharing something very personal and private here. I'm so sorry about your daughter, I wish children could be protected somehow on this earth.

I hope you or others on here who have lost loved ones/children aren't offended by our comments on here about this subject or analyzing of it in regards to this story. Your family sounds strong and I wish you and your family much healing in your new normal. Thank you for your insight for us outsiders looking in when we truly have no idea how it feels to have this happen.

 

[Tinkerbel1]

There was a 30 day requirement for the prosecution to hand discovery to the defence, but there was never a deadline on the searching for a resolution for the family.

The family accidentally spilled that it was a bloody crime scene when Greg Head spoke to the Northern Alberta newspaper that was covering his brother's helicopter aerial photos of a 10km radius of the home. Who paid for that? The articles about the helicopter search never stated that it was donated ... all that was said was that police would review their surface photos for ground disturbance ... but I'm sure that ground disturbance (like a shallow grave) is not their only point of interest.

LE indicated that they would be undertaking a 30-day extensive search for the victims....I believe that's what OutofTheDarkness is referring to.

In a statement released Thursday, police said they are implementing a 30-day search plan, “that is intelligence driven, which cannot be shared outside of law enforcement in order to protect the integrity of the investigation.”

http://www.lfpress.com/2014/07/17/f...ien-and-grandparents-alvin-and-kathryn-liknes

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

Hopefully that rules out speculation that the family has inside information about the investigation ... that's not happening.

It says in the future, they will have a dedicated memorial location. Many families have memorial locations while bodies or ashes have been placed elsewhere.