Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 Jun 2014 - #14

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Tinkerbel1 said:
....or maybe because he does have trouble maintaining focus and doesn't sit still for long....that's another characteristic. I doubt that LE were 'actively' looking for DG when he was in BC ... IMO, LE knows they'll eventually turn up...somewhere, somehow...which is basically what happened...so it really wasn't too hard to hide. I don't think DG had to plan the identity theft, I think someone else gave him his credentials and he used them. As far as planning this murder...that remains to be seen and decided upon in court. As Stan Laurel mentioned, "innocent until proven guilty".

If DG was "diagnosed" with ADD, then he very likely has ADD. If he has ADD, then this is a pretty big thing for him to do...I suppose it could be part of the 'hyper-focus' symptom of ADD. ADD may explain why he does things that aren't too bright...like reuse the stolen identity, get his truck on CCTV as often as he did, and show up back at the acreage when he was out on bail. IMO, it looks like he's got something not quite right up there. It's definitely going to be an interesting trial that's for sure.
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I don't want to debate mental health issues, since none of us *really* know if DG has them or not, but ADD/ADHD is a controversial diagnosis as it is. Some psychologists/case workers don't believe in this diagnosis and feel it's a result of the times of technological/information overload, people not getting outside and the exercise as humans did in the past and such so more of social/environmental factors as opposed to having to be medicated on pharmaceuticals, however, those who actually have it would probably beg to differ.

Also, strangely France doesn't even really classify or medicate it the way North America does, and they only have a .5% diagnosis rate. It doesn't really matter, just thought I'd throw that interesting tidbit in as it's interesting!
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/suffer-the-children/201203/why-french-kids-dont-have-adhd

I wonder if DG was on medication and regularly seeing a psychiatrist which he should've been if he was indeed mentally ill. Wasn't that part of his probation way back when? Very curoius about this stuff.
 
What about manholes and gutters in the city? Would that be an efficient spot to rid of evidence? Is that part of searches and has anything ever been recovered in other investigations?
 
Tinkerbel1 said:
:confused: ?? I'm sorry Otto, I'm not getting your point. Now DG is over 50 and has been charged with a violent incident against another person(s). What's the connection...cause I'm totally missing it. :(
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What I meant to say is that Doug Garland has a history of mental health issues. He may have ADHD, and he may have mental health issues, but as an adult, he was assessed as having no violent tendencies towards others. I think he will rely on the ADHD and mental health issues diagnosis to attempt to avoid prosecution, but I don't believe that his decision to commit murder was in any way related to ADHD or mental health issues. I think he was angry at Alvin and Kathryn for some reason, he did not see any legal recourse (he chose legal recourse regarding health benefit rights), and so he chose murder.

"In 2000, he was sentenced to 39 months for making amphetamines at his parents' farm. Before he went to prison, he jumped bail and lived for several years in Vancouver using the identity of a dead person.

The Parole Board of Canada gave him accelerated release after six months, noting in its decision that Garland's prior criminal record consisted of various property offences over the course of 20 years.

His mental health played a role in the crimes, the board said, but a psychologist determined that Garland had "little violence potential to others." It ordered a psychologist and psychiatrist to closely monitor him during his release."

http://bc.ctvnews.ca/murder-charges...-calgary-missing-trio-1.1914384#ixzz3BtRprzbn

“Your mental health is assessed as having stabilized and with close monitoring in the Community Residential Facility and by mental health professionals, you are assessed as a manageable risk.”



http://globalnews.ca/news/1439359/p...ut-person-of-interest-in-missing-family-case/
 
Lalalacasbah said:
I don't want to debate mental health issues, since none of us *really* know if DG has them or not, but ADD/ADHD is a controversial diagnosis as it is. Some psychologists/case workers don't believe in this diagnosis and feel it's a result of the times of technological/information overload, people not getting outside and the exercise as humans did in the past and such so more of social/environmental factors as opposed to having to be medicated on pharmaceuticals, however, those who actually have it would probably beg to differ.

Also, strangely France doesn't even really classify or medicate it the way North America does, and they only have a .5% diagnosis rate. It doesn't really matter, just thought I'd throw that interesting tidbit in as it's interesting!
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/suffer-the-children/201203/why-french-kids-dont-have-adhd

I wonder if DG was on medication and regularly seeing a psychiatrist which he should've been if he was indeed mentally ill. Wasn't that part of his probation way back when? Very curoius about this stuff.
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It was part of his probation, but that probably ended several years ago.
 
If DG has ADD/ADHD, I still don't understand whatsoever what this has to do with premeditated murder personally IMO. Maybe if he was diagnosed as delusional, detached from reality, hearing voices, paranoia, emotionally disturbed, post traumatic stress or some of the more serious mental issues that could trigger a normal person to kill, that could weigh into being brought up at trial.

I'm sure most serial/child killers/sex offenders are OCD, they obsess, obsess, obsess about violence and sex acts and can't control their compulsions to do it, and feel they *have* to act on these obsessions and compulsions. But this doesn't really matter to most of us average joes, the victims, or the families or in the courts as most people don't deem OCD as being a psychological crutch or reason to commit heinous crimes and most of these criminals do jail time as opposed to serving time in a psych ward.

I think most of us (myself included) have a little OCD in them for day to day things, so it's hard to justify these disorders in relation to murder, however I get how it plays a small part if someone can't stop obsessing over their violent thoughts. I'm very interested what psychology card is played at trial.
 
otto said:
It was part of his probation, but that probably ended several years ago.
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It's so unfortunate that people fall through the cracks like this. In BC after Riverview mental hospital was closed down I'm sure many of the patients weren't getting the care and monitoring they needed by professionals afterwards. I get hands are tied and if DG composed himself and acted 'normal' they can't keep him tied down and monitored, but still very sad.
 
otto said:
ADD was replaced with the term ADHD in the 1990s. ADD (the old term) and ADHD (the new term) are the same thing. Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD) is the correct term today.

By Chris Iliades, MD | Medically reviewed by Lindsey Marcellin, MD, MPH

"Society first heard the term ADD in 1980; today it's ADHD.

• 1980. The third edition of the manual uses the name "attention deficit disorder" (ADD). ·
• 1994. The manual's fourth edition recognizes the disorder as "attention deficit hyperactivity disorder," with three subgroups."

"Today we know that younger children are more likely to show hyperactivity ADHD symptoms and older children or adults are more likely to have symptoms of inattention. For most people with ADHD, symptoms are mixed and they change over time," explains Hunter.

The three subtypes of ADHD recognized today are:
•Predominantly hyperactive-impulsive
•Predominantly inattentive
•Combined hyperactive and inattentive (mixed type)"

http://www.everydayhealth.com/adhd-awareness/an-adhd-timeline.aspx

"This is a disorder of chronic, long-standing, unchanging disorganization, inattention, and forgetfulness," said Dr. David Goodman, a psychiatrist and director of the Adult Attention Deficit Disorder Center in Baltimore, Maryland. "A lot of people don't know they have this condition and just kind of muddle through their lives."

http://www.everydayhealth.com/adhd/adult-adhd.aspx
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Thanks, it's interesting to revisit this topic decades after my diagnosis. I was diagnosed while attending U of A as a mature student in the mid 80's. That was before the days of the internet, and the easy searches and self diagnoses we can perform today.
I don't want to overstate the obvious, but want to say that we are all different, and there are varying degrees of every type of disorder or disability. Some of 'us' don't require medication, don't struggle with anxiety or impulsivity, and are quite accomplished at remaining focused and organized.
I can see how someone with ADD or ADHD would choose to remain on the fringe of society and may prefer his own company. But to say that DG, because of his diagnosis, is generally unable to focus or see things through would be very naive.
 
Lalalacasbah said:
If DG has ADD/ADHD, I still don't understand whatsoever what this has to do with premeditated murder personally IMO. Maybe if he was diagnosed as delusional, detached from reality, hearing voices, paranoia, emotionally disturbed, post traumatic stress or some of the more serious mental issues that could trigger a normal person to kill, that could weigh into being brought up at trial.

I'm sure most serial/child killers/sex offenders are OCD, they obsess, obsess, obsess about violence and sex acts and can't control their compulsions to do it, and feel they *have* to act on these obsessions and compulsions. But this doesn't really matter to most of us average joes, the victims, or the families or in the courts as most people don't deem OCD as being a psychological crutch or reason to commit heinous crimes and most of these criminals do jail time as opposed to serving time in a psych ward.

I think most of us (myself included) have a little OCD in them for day to day things, so it's hard to justify these disorders in relation to murder, however I get how it plays a small part if someone can't stop obsessing over their violent thoughts. I'm very interested what psychology card is played at trial.
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It works to his advantage that there are documents stating that his mental health played a role in his earlier crimes. He can reference that when pleading that his mental health issues again played a role, with the difference being that it now has resulted in violence towards others.
 
Helena's body being discovered a year after her disappearance is strange to me. I'm not sure if anyone else here has traveled that twp road just off symons valley where she was found, but its fairly well traveled. It's not shown on the aerial view, but right after you get off symons valley road (also known as RR2 for mailing purposes) onto the twp road there is a small but steep dip into the ravine where the water is. The road is only wide enough for 1 vehicle so you always hope no one else is coming in from the other direction as you hit that part. There are enough cross road gravel roads that it just seems a strange spot to drop a body.

Though I can say I've never stopped in the ravine near the water, so I suppose many others wouldn't either. But that leads into, was her body found near the water or in the field? They are drastically different spots when you actually travel out there. Thats the nice part about looking at the aerial views for roads you actually frequently traveled. You know the quirks of the road where strangers online don't.

Not sure if it's worth mentioning but the farm/acreage just to the East of the field where Helena's body was (if it was in the field not the ravine with water) and south of the twp road was a home occupation for a flooring business...so the land may not have been tended to. I'm not sure exactly as I don't know that family. But google searches provided that information. I won't post info or links as I don't want a mod snip since who knows if it's related or not.
 
Lalalacasbah said:
If DG has ADD/ADHD, I still don't understand whatsoever what this has to do with premeditated murder personally IMO. Maybe if he was diagnosed as delusional, detached from reality, hearing voices, paranoia, emotionally disturbed, post traumatic stress or some of the more serious mental issues that could trigger a normal person to kill, that could weigh into being brought up at trial.

I'm sure most serial/child killers/sex offenders are OCD, they obsess, obsess, obsess about violence and sex acts and can't control their compulsions to do it, and feel they *have* to act on these obsessions and compulsions. But this doesn't really matter to most of us average joes, the victims, or the families or in the courts as most people don't deem OCD as being a psychological crutch or reason to commit heinous crimes and most of these criminals do jail time as opposed to serving time in a psych ward.

I think most of us (myself included) have a little OCD in them for day to day things, so it's hard to justify these disorders in relation to murder, however I get how it plays a small part if someone can't stop obsessing over their violent thoughts. I'm very interested what psychology card is played at trial.
Click to expand...

I strongly agree, Lalalacasbah. The poster that is confused about DG's ability to carry out a premeditated murder is over simplifying. His condition could be specific to learning, or being able to carry a conversation, or a number of things not on Google.
To reference a Google article about ADD/ADHD and then to apply all of the characteristics and symptoms to DG, (inability to sit still, being unable to focus or follow through on anything, impulse, anger) seems a little pedestrian. IMO.
I'm surprised some people still think 'the internet' gives us all we need to know about everything, including mental disorders.
 
Krystine said:
I strongly agree, Lalalacasbah. To reference a Google article about ADD/ADHD and then to apply all of the characteristics and symptoms to DG, (inability to sit still, being unable to focus or follow through on anything) seems a little simplistic, IMO.
I think some of us are a little bit in over our heads if we think 'the internet' gives us all we need to know about mental disorders and illnesses.
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I am curious as to how the Judge (in DG's prior courtcase) could claim that his ADHD was identifiable during his appearance in the courtroom. What made it so obvious? Was that part of DG's attempt to win his claim? Did the Judge request his doctor's diagnosis or was she going from his prior convictions and the reviews of those doctors. When one represents themselves in court are they held accountable to prove personal claims they make for themselves such as a disability or illness? If DG's personality traits impacted the Judges ruling would that be DG's way of manipulating the system?
 
LoisLane said:
I am curious as to how the Judge (in DG's prior courtcase) could claim that his ADHD was identifiable during his appearance in the courtroom. What made it so obvious? Was that part of DG's attempt to win his claim? Did the Judge request his doctor's diagnosis or was she going from his prior convictions and the reviews of those doctors. When one represents themselves in court are they held accountable to prove personal claims they make for themselves such as a disability or illness? If DG's personality traits impacted the Judges ruling would that be DG's way of manipulating the system?
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I think his mental 'difficulties' were a ploy used as a defence tactic. From what we know of him, I get the feeling he avoids taking responsibilities for his actions and is not above using anything necessary to get away with his crimes.

I strongly suspect we are about to hear a request for a psychiatric exam. The next step will be a plea of not guilty due to mental disease or defect.
 
LoisLane said:
I am curious as to how the Judge (in DG's prior courtcase) could claim that his ADHD was identifiable during his appearance in the courtroom. What made it so obvious? Was that part of DG's attempt to win his claim? Did the Judge request his doctor's diagnosis or was she going from his prior convictions and the reviews of those doctors. When one represents themselves in court are they held accountable to prove personal claims they make for themselves such as a disability or illness? If DG's personality traits impacted the Judges ruling would that be DG's way of manipulating the system?
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I think it is noted by the judge in the decision that he was agitated at times.

"2] Mr. Garland is in his mid-forties. He suffers from attention deficient disorder (ADD). It was clear that he was agitated throughout the trial, but it was also apparent that he was an intelligent individual.
 
OutOfTheDarkness said:
I think it is noted by the judge in the decision that he was agitated or preoccupied at times.
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In his appearance for the identity theft charge, he also seemed out of sorts. It's been mentioned and linked here many times, that he asked about returning to the farm, even after it was made clear he was not allowed to return.

I am not sure whether his affect is genuinely out if sync with what is considered normal or if it is an act to set himself up for a defence of insanity. Whatever the case, something is wired wrong.
 
Krystine said:
I strongly agree, Lalalacasbah. The poster that is confused about DG's ability to carry out a premeditated murder is over simplifying. His condition could be specific to learning, or being able to carry a conversation, or a number of things not on Google.
To reference a Google article about ADD/ADHD and then to apply all of the characteristics and symptoms to DG, (inability to sit still, being unable to focus or follow through on anything, impulse, anger) seems a little pedestrian. IMO.
I'm surprised some people still think 'the internet' gives us all we need to know about everything, including mental disorders.
Click to expand...

Thanks for sharing and your personal experience and insight about ADD/ADHD, very interesting topic. It's nice to hear a perspective that's not so clinical or like you said - not off the internet for a change lol! I get a little passionate about mental health issues as I suffered from depression and terrible anxiety attacks over 10 years ago (I'm fine now thank goodness - made a big lifestyle change which helped contribute a lot and was able to go off antidepressants) and I don't wish these struggles or life interruptions on anyone, they're terrible to deal with. So I tend to get over zealous as an advocate but also have an opinions about mental illness not to be used as a crutch for lack of responsibility if someone doesn't truly suffer (if that makes sense).

And true about the internet! I see many times in healthcare how easy it is to self-diagnose ourselves by looking things up on the internet and also find something a doctor missed by doing our homework, it's a double edged sword lol! :)
 
otto said:
It works to his advantage that there are documents stating that his mental health played a role in his earlier crimes. He can reference that when pleading that his mental health issues again played a role, with the difference being that it now has resulted in violence towards others.
Click to expand...

Hypothetical here, but I wonder if pendulum could swing the other way and if those old documents and old diagnosis's were allowed to be used for the O'Brien and Liknes families to sue the psychiatrists that previously deemed or diagnosed(?) DG a 'non-violent threat'. Just a thought of course.
 
LoisLane said:
I am curious as to how the Judge (in DG's prior courtcase) could claim that his ADHD was identifiable during his appearance in the courtroom. What made it so obvious? Was that part of DG's attempt to win his claim? Did the Judge request his doctor's diagnosis or was she going from his prior convictions and the reviews of those doctors. When one represents themselves in court are they held accountable to prove personal claims they make for themselves such as a disability or illness? If DG's personality traits impacted the Judges ruling would that be DG's way of manipulating the system?
Click to expand...

Good points to think about for sure! I wonder who verified his ADHD.
 
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