Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 Jun 2014 - #18

[Sillybilly]

My husband thinks it could be for an easement or it could be some sort of other condition relating to community guidelines that had to be accounted for, it could be multiple things. Only one way to find out so I will take care of that tomorrow.

But the Caveator was the purchaser. If it was for an easement or community guidelines, etc, the Caveator would have been the organization that had the easement, not the purchaser. Hmmm ..

 

[LoisLane]

Like when you go to a casino you can sign over your house to gamble? Or if you bankrolled your house on a specific horse to place finish or show? Is that what you mean?

Eek! It also says Re: Purchasers Interest. What is that??

 

[stan laurel]

Eek! It also says Re: Purchasers Interest. What is that??

let's google the term.

 

[LoisLane]

But the Caveator was the purchaser. If it was for an easement or community guidelines, etc, the Caveator would have been the organization that had the easement, not the purchaser. Hmmm ..

It is confusing. If it was a private sale could it be for a deposit?

 

[Sillybilly]

Like when you go to a casino you can sign over your house to gamble? Or if you bankrolled your house on a specific horse to place finish or show? Is that what you mean?

Kind of .. basically the purchaser seemed to be making sure nobody else could register anything against the property. Don't know how this might affect pending bankruptcy or potential civil suits about patent disputes, etc. Ugh ... I used to do title searching and conveyancing in Ontario but have forgotten more than I ever knew .. and never once dealt with a Caveat.

 

[Sillybilly]

It is confusing. If it was a private sale could it be for a deposit?

No, deposits just get held in trust and aren't registered on title.

 

[LoisLane]

let's google the term.

Well it could be interesting...

http://www.servicealberta.ca/pdf/ltmanual/CAV-1.pdf

 

[stan laurel]

from what I glanced on the subject,,, this was not a regular sale,, in fact (from what we know) it was likely a debt of some sort imo.

 

[LoisLane]

I wonder if KL and AL left the country between December 2013 and June 2014 (prior to the disappearance).

 

[deugirtni]

I find this piece of information (caveat) interesting. This reminded me of something that happened to someone I know not too long ago (but in Ontario). I found the below description on the Service Alberta website. In the case of the person I know that this happened to, this thing was placed on a property which was about to be mortgaged. When the mortgage company searched title, they found this, and the mortgage was stalled and did not go through, the mortgage company would not allow it to go through, until the thing was removed. It held things up for awhile and created quite a stir between the parties involved.

Document Registration

Description of Documents Registered

The Land Titles Offices register over 150 different types of documents authorized through over 100 acts. The following is a brief description of the most common documents registered.

Caveat

"Caveat" is Latin for "let him beware." In land law, it is a warning that someone is claiming an interest in a parcel of land.

If you believe that you are entitled to an interest in land, you may wish to file your claim by way of a caveat. Your caveat must include a legal description of the land and state clearly the nature of the interest claimed and the grounds on which the claim is founded.

Registration of a caveat is merely notice of a claim of an interest in land; therefore it does not actually confer rights onto the caveator. The interest claimed may or may not be a valid interest in the land but if its validity is disputed and upheld by the courts any person dealing with the land subsequent to the registration of the caveat is subject to the interest claimed.

Land Titles has a statutory obligation to mail a notice of a registered caveat and the interest claimed to all registered owners on title.

http://www.servicealberta.ca/594.cfm

 

[Krystine]

Oh too funny, I could actually see this happening... and we get eliminated one by one each week lol!

We have to catch our own fish to survive...

 

[Krystine]

Kind of .. basically the purchaser seemed to be making sure nobody else could register anything against the property. Don't know how this might affect pending bankruptcy or potential civil suits about patent disputes, etc. Ugh ... I used to do title searching and conveyancing in Ontario but have forgotten more than I ever knew .. and never once dealt with a Caveat.

Aren't a lien or a caveat the same thing? Like you, sillybilly, I used to work with land title searches and such. But IIRC, in Alberta, a builder's lien is common for outstanding work done on the home by a builder, or a caveat by a financial institution, for a secured loan. They have to be removed before title can be transferred.
I have never seen a caveat placed on a property for any other purpose.

 

[deugirtni]

It sounds like it is possible that someone to whom the L's owed money put the caveat on the property at one point, before official legaleze was/could be dealt with, in order to prevent the possibility of the home's equity being eaten away by someone else in the meantime. The caveat is like a notice which lets it be known that someone has an interest in the property, and if someone else might also have an interest, the one that put the first caveat on title gets priority over the rest. Or if the L's went to sell their home to someone, they wouldn't be able to until this caveat was dealt with (because who would buy a property with that hanging over the property), or if they did sell it to someone else (because perhaps they had an incompetent lawyer who didn't notice it on the title, or whatever), that new owner would be putting himself in a position to have to deal with the 'caveator'. This seems to be a really good description (BBM):

Alexander v McKillop & Benjafield 43 SCR 551 (1910), a decision of the Supreme Court of Canada, discussed the effect of a caveat as follows:

"This machinery was designed for the protection of rights, not for the creation of rights.

"A caveat prevents any disposition of his title by the registered proprietor in derogation of the caveator's claim until that claim has been satisfied or disposed of, but the caveator's claim must stand or fall on its own merits.

"If the caveator has no right enforceable against the registered owner which entitled him to restrain the alienation of the owner's title then the caveat itself cannot and does not impose any burden on the registered title."

Or Stephens v Bannan & Gray 5 WWR 201, that a caveat is:

"... nothing more than a caution and an effective notice of a claim of title grounded upon something else and preventing any change in the rights of the caveator by dealings with the land subsequent to the lodging of the caveat."

http://www.duhaime.org/LegalDictionary/C/Caveat.aspx

 

[Cherchri]

Aren't a lien or a caveat the same thing? Like you, sillybilly, I used to work with land title searches and such. But IIRC, in Alberta, a builder's lien is common for outstanding work done on the home by a builder, or a caveat by a financial institution, for a secured loan. They have to be removed before title can be transferred.
I have never seen a caveat placed on a property for any other purpose.

This is a great explanation as to why a caveat may be instituted:
http://www.andersons.com.au/lawtalk/posts/2012/august/to-caveat-or-not-to-caveat.aspx

A snippet extracted: A caveat is a way that an interested party can record their interest in a property on the certificate of title. The certificate of title is the document that records important information about the property such as ownership and any mortgages etc.

 

[Krystine]

It sounds like it is possible that someone to whom the L's owed money put the caveat on the property at one point, before official legaleze was/could be dealt with, in order to prevent the possibility of the home's equity being eaten away by someone else in the meantime. The caveat is like a notice which lets it be known that someone has an interest in the property, and if someone else might also have an interest, the one that put the first caveat on title gets priority over the rest. Or if the L's went to sell their home to someone, they wouldn't be able to until this caveat was dealt with (because who would buy a property with that hanging over the property), or if they did sell it to someone else (because perhaps they had an incompetent lawyer who didn't notice it on the title, or whatever), that new owner would be putting himself in a position to have to deal with the 'caveator'. This seems to be a really good description (BBM):

A property can not change hands (title can't be transferred) until all caveats are legally 'removed'. Even an incompetent lawyer would not be able to close a sale with a caveat remaining.

 

[Sillybilly]

A property can not change hands (title can't be transferred) until all caveats are legally 'removed'. Even an incompetent lawyer would not be able to close a sale with a caveat remaining.

But if it is a lawyer/purchaser who put the Caveat on (as Lois indicates upthread), then they have made sure that nobody lays claim to the property that was ultimately transferred to same lawyer/caveator/purchaser. IOW, the lawyer/caveator/purchaser removes their own Caveat. Probably would be done at one and the same time that the title is transferred (i.e. discharge of Caveat registered then immediate registration of the Transfer)

 

[Sillybilly]

Aren't a lien or a caveat the same thing? Like you, sillybilly, I used to work with land title searches and such. But IIRC, in Alberta, a builder's lien is common for outstanding work done on the home by a builder, or a caveat by a financial institution, for a secured loan. They have to be removed before title can be transferred.
I have never seen a caveat placed on a property for any other purpose.

Pretty much the same thing, but ... in the Alberta Land Titles Act that I posted upthread, it specifies that a builder's lien is not handled by Caveat as it must meet the separate and distinct requirements of the Builders Lien Act.

Secured loan by a financial institution would normally be handled by registration of a mortgage, and a lawyer is not a conventional source of financing.

 

[deugirtni]

Ok, so there we go.

A property can not change hands (title can't be transferred) until all caveats are legally 'removed'. Even an incompetent lawyer would not be able to close a sale with a caveat remaining.

 

[Sillybilly]

Am trying to think .. did a lawyer register a Caveat on the property on AL's behalf so that the tax department couldn't put a lien on for the $800,000 in taxes owed by Winter Pet?

IIRC, it was determined that AL was not listed as a Director of Winter. If he had been, he would not be held liable for the corporation's debts or would have had only limited liability. However, if as a shareholder he provided a personal guarantee for its debts, he may have been facing action in that regard. It is possible his (?) lawyer put the Caveat on to stave off any potential action related to the company.

 

[deugirtni]

Would be interesting to pull another report from the Registry office. Did I read somewhere that a caveat is for a certain length of time unless it is removed prior to that? And.. did I read somewhere that a caveat can only be placed by the person who has the interest in the property, and not by someone on his/her behalf? Will have to check.