Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 Jun 2014 - #19

[otto]

The bonus side trip on this road is that we argued over whether LE found "no trace" of the victims. Remember that one?

A theory has been put forth that the victims were vapourized on an Airdrie acreage belonging to a couple of seniors, but there are at this time no facts supporting this theory. Clearly there was always evidence that the victims were injured (initial reports), and deceased (final reports), at the crime scene. I remember clearly the dark coloured drag marks leading from the side door to the parking pad, and have never doubted that it was blood. That information was released the day that the victims were reported missing, so we have always known that there was "trace" of the victims that indicated "medical distress".

 

[otto]

Is it?

Regardless, not only are you wrecking it, but we have to get into what the burden of proof is for a court, or an ME to declare someone dead. Is it beyond a reasonable doubt, or a balance of probability... and what evidence would the investigation by the ME and their investigators be allowed to consider when declaring that death? Is it strictly science, or is circumstantial evidence allowed?

The beauty of the Oxford Group's argument is that for "if P, then Q (LE is incompetent)" then every instance must be true. I only need prove one plausible theory for that absolution to be proven false. I could go for the obvious one, where LE wouldn't be incompetent for relying on the ME for information, but that's splitting hairs.

The Chief of Police declaring the victims dead because of a "preponderance of evidence" isn't incompetence, nor can it be considered a fact. It's an opinion... a judgement. The ME wouldn't be incompetent for believing a balance of probability, nor would an expert witness for the defence be incompetent for refuting the ME's opinion. Since we don't know the actual facts, those being what the declaration of death is based upon, then it is reckless to be accusing others of saying LE is incompetent, based only on an assumption.

Is it plausible the defence team will refute the declaration of death for one of the victims, based on the evidence and not incompetence?

The victims are dead.
It is not an opinion that the victims are dead, it is a fact.

 

[otto]

(BBYoursecretadmirer)

Without having to go into the specific evidentiary details, you just agreed there is a chance, however slight, the ME's opinion could be challenged, thus leaving a plausible possibility... for you know... if not D, then A?

Without the facts, one cannot state the 'backward absolutions' offered as proof of slandering LE. Those claiming to have the facts, simply don't. Those asking if there is a possibility they are alive, are asking because they don't have those facts either. As well, no one can be considered automatically incompetent even if the evidence were judged to be insufficient to prove death. The black and white Oxford version of the world isn't the real world.

The court appearances were pre-discovery... and KR would also need time to consult experts before presenting that motion. Since there are multiple victims, all with an assumed differing level of evidentiary proof of death, the preliminary hearing would probably be the best place to sort through that. I assume any motion would be set over to the preliminary hearing anyway.

Do you still want to agree with those who think life is "if not B, then W"?

BBM
On what basis can it be said that Chief Hanson does not have the facts?

What's all this introductory philosophy logic stuff. A > B, A ᴧ B, -A v B, ∀ and ∃ ... it's fun, but it doesn't seem to work when applied to the point ... and most people haven't studied symbolic language, so it's kind of ... how do you say ... trying to fly over the heads of those without knowledge of symbolic language. With those that have studied symbolic language, it doesn't yet make sense.

 

[Lalalacasbah]

Are there any searchers still going on??? Gosh winter is coming up so soon, and the snow will fall! They need to be found before then!! Someone must know places he was familiar with, and might would have put them. While yes we know he had more than a few hours to murder then move and hide the bodies, HE didn't know that! That's one thing we sometimes forget. A murderer has no way of knowing when the person will be noticed as missing, when police will get involved, and if they left behind anything to link to them. Thus in most cases, we don't see an elaborate plan for hiding the bodies. Usually shallow graves in their known areas, water, or just leaving out in the open on the side of the road, or a field, etc. This family needs to be found, and wish it would happen soon!!!

I agree, they are probably somewhere so close!

LE are no longer searching according to a recent MSM article

I do wonder if the snow/ice will be beneficial in any sort of preservation or evidence? Or maybe it's been too long already and the window is gone?

 

[LoisLane]

A couple thoughts that keep popping up for me...

How successful are police in recovering bodies during field searches? Does anyone know of any cases where they have recovered bodies by such efforts?

Has WS discussed the possibility of the someone being in medical distress that it could have been a way to describe the way AL walks? IIRC he walks with a limp.

 

[Lalalacasbah]

A couple thoughts that keep popping up for me...

How successful are police in recovering bodies during field searches? Does anyone know of any cases where they have recovered bodies by such efforts?

Has WS discussed the possibility of the someone being in medical distress that it could have been a way to describe the way AL walks? IIRC he walks with a limp.

Sorry a bit graphic: I would think field searches should be successful, my line of thinking is they were out there in the blistering heat searching and if there was anything out there surely there would've been a foul scent and possibly flies attracted to anything decomposing I think? They had the dogs too....They also must've been looking for disturbances in soil/grass. But who knows, not sure how often remains are recovered from fields.

I wonder why AL had a permanent limp and how long he had it for? I guess it could be because of any medical issue and might be a reason for medical distress, but then again, I just remembered he was an avid skier/golfer so his leg might not bother him that much?

 

[news.talk]

Nobody said there IS an ME finding or declaration of death. All that was said is that 'police believe', based on the preponderance of evidence which they have pieced together into what they feel is a 'whole' picture, which they say is enough to believe the trio are dead and the murderer is DG.

It is rare for a murder trial to have no bodies, but that is an extra burden of proof that LE/prosecution will have to prove in order for DG to be convicted by a jury. I believe that death certificates are public, are you able to provide one to say they exist for the three?

In the tragic case of Ontario's Tim Bosma, he remains were unidentifiable, and I am not certain there was any ability to extract any DNA from those remains, but even so, those remains were handed over to the family for proper burial. If there were enough 'remains' to prove death and allow an ME to make a declaration of death, those 'remains' also would have been handed over to the L/O families. But they weren't. Because they don't exist. And if an ME had made such a declaration, the Chief would have instead stated, 'the trio are dead based on the ME report'. It is that simple. But that was not done. The fact that the Chief, after making his well written statement of 'belief', then responded to a media's question, by stating 'they are dead', is still only his opinion. LE's opinion, perhaps also obviously the Crown's opinion, but still not deemed enough evidence to proceed to trial, that will be determined next spring, I believe. When that happens, assuming the charges against DG can proceed to trial, DG will be given his 'day in court' (which will of course actually be months, undoubtedly). It will then be the burden of the prosecution to prove to the jury beyond reasonable doubt, that not only is the trio dead, but also that DG is guilty. These things are simply not fact until then.

It IS possible to charge someone with a homicide without a death certificate.

One can dissect the Chief's statement to fit any number of conclusions, but keep in mind that those statements are VERY carefully crafted so little to no information is released, while providing the necessary componants.

I strongly maintain, that the Chief would not make a definitive public declaration that three people including a small child, were dead, WITHOUT a clear directive from the Medical Examiner. Given that the ME was involved right from the beginning of the forensic collection, it stands to reason that it was that report which drove the findings.

The fact remains, one CANNOT place an obituary in the Calgary Herald, as was done for all three victims, without a death certificate. I have had personal experience with this - twice.

http://m.legacy.com/obituaries/twincities/obituary-place-an-obituary.aspx

 

[LoisLane]

I have a FB question. Is it possible to "like" a page if you do not physically select the "Like" button?

KL has two moving companies listed under her "Like" pages list. Both companies only joined (created an acct.) FB in September of 2014.

 

[kaley]

I have a FB question. Is it possible to "like" a page if you do not physically select the "Like" button?

KL has two moving companies listed under her "Like" pages list. Both companies only joined (created an acct.) FB in September of 2014.

No I don't think it is. Unless the moving companies have changed their names/facebook profiles? Maybe then the date is updated. Not too sure but good point.

 

[otto]

A couple thoughts that keep popping up for me...

How successful are police in recovering bodies during field searches? Does anyone know of any cases where they have recovered bodies by such efforts?

Has WS discussed the possibility of the someone being in medical distress that it could have been a way to describe the way AL walks? IIRC he walks with a limp.

Ryan Lane is a recent case where searches were suspended until the investigation gave police a location to search. Ryan Lane's remains were then found - miles from where he was last seen, and two people, including the mother of his daughter, are facing charges.

"Police, with the help of numerous volunteers, launched an unprecedented search for Lane in May [2012], combing over 10,000 acres of land west of Beiseker."

http://metronews.ca/news/calgary/450119/remains-of-missing-calgary-man-ryan-lane-found/

 

[kaley]

No I don't think it is. Unless the moving companies have changed their names/facebook profiles? Maybe then the date is updated. Not too sure but good point.

Are they both also from the UK?

 

[LoisLane]

Are they both also from the UK?

Yes. One joined 09/23/2104, the other 09/20/2014.

 

[Lalalacasbah]

I have a FB question. Is it possible to "like" a page if you do not physically select the "Like" button?

KL has two moving companies listed under her "Like" pages list. Both companies only joined (created an acct.) FB in September of 2014.

I don't think you can do this, unless like what Kaley said maybe the page was updated and a new creation date appears.

I have my own personal FB page that I deactivated awhile back, I could try testing this out to see if I update the page or change the name it stamps a new creation date. Not sure it'll work if my page is not activated though (I can see it, but the people who like my page can't view it anymore until I reactivate it, which I might do one day when I have time to contribute to it).

I will try to do this and let you guys know.

 

[news.talk]

Sure ... and the high school dropout that heads for the construction industry is making $30/hour to start. Where's the problem?

With a 0.1% vacancy rate, many people are having to find non-traditional living arrangements in this city. The criteria for renting is almost absurd! A young man with no rental history, no long credit history, work history and more than likely student loans to pay off, is not going to be at the top of the landlord's list to approve.

When I was in my twenties, after I graduated, I went from one small town to another for experience in my industry. In between jobs I would temporarily move back with my parents. I also stored most of my belongings there no matter where I lived.

There are plenty of legitimate reasons an adult child stays with their parent's. In Calgary, it has become a necessity.

 

[Lalalacasbah]

Okay, Kaley and LL, I went to my personal unpublished FB page and there is a place you can edit the date your page was created on. I changed my creation date from 2009 to Sept. 2014 and it shows as Sept 2014 in the About - Basic Info portion of the page as well as bottom of the page feed, it looks like it just started in Sept 2014.

BUT, my photos/uploads from 2009 are still marked 2009 so you can't change that date it seems unless photos are deleted off page.

Not sure that helps or hinders, it still seems weird...

 

[stan laurel]

Okay, Kaley and LL, I went to my personal unpublished FB page and there is a place you can edit the date your page was created on. I changed my creation date from 2009 to Sept. 2014 and it shows as Sept 2014 in the About - Basic Info portion of the page as well as bottom of the page feed, it looks like it just started in Sept 2014.

BUT, my photos/uploads from 2009 are still marked 2009 so you can't change that date it seems unless photos are deleted off page.

Not sure that helps or hinders, it still seems weird...

but I can't just join your page, I need to request to be your friend or have someone ask me to be a friend, then, you click the accept icon. one can't just be a friend, one must physically request/accept or decline.

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

With a 0.1% vacancy rate, many people are having to find non-traditional living arrangements in this city. The criteria for renting is almost absurd! A young man with no rental history, no long credit history, work history and more than likely student loans to pay off, is not going to be at the top of the landlord's list to approve.

When I was in my twenties, after I graduated, I went from one small town to another for experience in my industry. In between jobs I would temporarily move back with my parents. I also stored most of my belongings there no matter where I lived.

There are plenty of legitimate reasons an adult child stays with their parent's. In Calgary, it has become a necessity.

You just know the relationship is about to end when the exchange of human tissue is withheld, and making a strong point receives the silent treatment...

 

[Lalalacasbah]

but I can't just join your page, I need to request to be your friend or have someone ask me to be a friend, then, you click the accept icon. one can't just be a friend, one must physically request/accept or decline.

It's different with Pages Stan, pages are for fan pages, businesses, etc. A page can edit it's settings but most are public since most pages are used for promotional/advertising of business purposes.

My page used to be public, so anyone could see it and like it as it was for promotional/business purposes (before I changed it so only I could see it, thanks to my stalker issue, I deactivated it so he couldn't see it).

So you don't have to be friends with Page owners, if their page is set to Public anyone can like it.

 

[LoisLane]

Okay, Kaley and LL, I went to my personal unpublished FB page and there is a place you can edit the date your page was created on. I changed my creation date from 2009 to Sept. 2014 and it shows as Sept 2014 in the About - Basic Info portion of the page as well as bottom of the page feed, it looks like it just started in Sept 2014.

BUT, my photos/uploads from 2009 are still marked 2009 so you can't change that date it seems unless photos are deleted off page.

Not sure that helps or hinders, it still seems weird...

Is the first page where it says you joined FB dated the new date that you entered? Did you have any previous posts? Were they deleted up to the current date of your new date? These two moving co's show no activity prior to the join date. I will check to see if I can find any old posts or dates on images. Thanks Lala!

 

[kaley]

Is the first page where it says you joined FB dated the new date that you entered? Did you have any previous posts? Were they deleted up to the current date of your new date? These two moving co's show no activity prior to the join date. I will check to see if I can find any old posts or dates on images. Thanks Lala!

I googled bg removal and they have another facebook page that has posts back to 2010. This page though is still being updated. So they must be updating their old group and new group. KL liked the new page though so I don't think she liked it before Sept 2014 which can't be true if she or someone else is not still using her facebook account.
Have to grab my son from school but will look into this more later.