Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 Jun 2014 - #21

[matou]

I hope he wasn't going to overdose his parents with the insulin.

 

[Satchie]

Hi, everyone. I've had the last 2 days off and let myself get caught up in the opening and testimony so far. I don't think any of us had predicted how horrific the last hours could have been for the victims.
I am not sure I can see this through. Although this steadfast group needs closure, I can't help but think "lets give this family the dignity of not making their suffering public". If ever there was a case where a publication ban should be enacted, it's this one IMO. I personally don't want to hear any more about DG's fascination with women restrained and in diapers.
God bless us all.

I share your reaction, but not sure if it could be any worse than knowing he killed little Nathan.

I'm always interested in, firstly, how the crime was solved, and secondly, how it is such murderers live among us, and their psychology.

I think it is respectful to the family not to dwell on or discuss the horrific details.

 

[Georgeo]

Catching up on this case. Wow. Notice questions were asked of elderly parents whether any of the victims had been to the farm or in the green pickup truck. Almost as if defence is trying to set the stage for why DNA of victims may innocently be at farm or in truck. Sneaky ..... jmo of course.

 

[otto]

There is a barbell beside the pullout bed. I believe when JO testified yesterday she said that when she left Nathan was sleeping downstairs. I am mixed up on which grandparent he was with.

Was the other barbell found in the garage?

Someone has probably answered this by now - but if not, the barbell was next to the sofa in the family room at the time of the estate sale photos for kijiji. Two barbells were found in the garage after the kidnappings, one had blood on it.

My understanding is that Nathan was sleeping with his grandmother. They were on the sofa / pull-out bed in the family room when Jennifer left at 11 PM, but given the blood in two upstairs bedrooms, it's likely that she and Nathan went upstairs to the spare bedroom when Jennifer left with her 1 year old.

 

[deugirtni]

[h=1]Douglas Garland's sister pointed police to her brother as suspect, jurors in triple murder trial hear[/h]http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/douglas-garland-murder-trial-nathan-obrien-liknes-day-2-trial-1.3939170

 

[subwaydreaming]

I hope he wasn't going to overdose his parents with the insulin.

Could this be how he killed A, K and N?

 

[otto]

Thanks for all the twitter updates! It's a super busy time of year for me, so finding the information in one place with special attention to things that don't make sense is very helpful.

Regarding the diabetes question, I'm reminded of a case in MI where insulin was used to debilitate young women. I think Jessica Herringa may have been subjected to insulin injections.

Thinking about the bag that was found containing handcuffs ... was Alvin over-powered, hand-cuffed, injected, and then taken from his home?

Insulin overdose : "Cold sweats, trembling hands, intense anxiety, a general sense of confusion -- these are signs of low blood sugar. Your doctor may call it hypoglycemia. It often happens when you take too much insulin."

http://www.webmd.com/diabetes/guide/insulin-overdose#1

 

[otto]

In relation to motive, although Allen Liknes has said it was about a patent dispute, the patent work and pump was done at the farm. Douglas Garland alleges that Alvin Liknes stole items from the farm - presumably the pump that Douglas Garland was building on his property.

If Garland was fired when he didn't pick Alvin up after Alvin had a vehicle breakdown, and the pump was being built on the farm, my guess is that Alvin and / or Allen went to the property and took the pump. Regardless of what happened, it doesn't seem like everything was above board on Alvin's end. Understandably he is the victim, but if there wasn't a long history of Douglas Garland being really upset about this, it wouldn't have ended this way. Liknes knew that Douglas Garland was really upset about their work relationship. I have to wonder why Liknes didn't do something resolve the problem ... we haven't heard anything about how Liknes tried to pay for the work completed by Douglas or give him due credit for the work. All we hear is that Douglas Garland was being "petty", but that isn't how it looks to me.

The whole thing is beyond tragic.

 

[clydeslueth]

I hope we find out as the trial progresses.

Does anyone wear adult diapers
Does anyone have diabetes
Did you order DNA destroying and blood cleaning materials

I think they are proving how in depth DG planned this and what he planned/did

I also found it interesting that the crown asked Doreen if Douglas played any musical instruments to which she replied no, and then they confirmed with her that there wasn't a piano in the house.

 

[JadeSLeuth]

In relation to motive, although Allen Liknes has said it was about a patent dispute, the patent work and pump was done at the farm. Douglas Garland alleges that Alvin Liknes stole items from the farm - presumably the pump that Douglas Garland was building on his property.

If Garland was fired when he didn't pick Alvin up after Alvin had a vehicle breakdown, and the pump was being built on the farm, my guess is that Alvin and / or Allen went to the property and took the pump. Regardless of what happened, it doesn't seem like everything was above board on Alvin's end. Understandably he is the victim, but if there wasn't a long history of Douglas Garland being really upset about this, it wouldn't have ended this way. Liknes knew that Douglas Garland was really upset about their work relationship. I have to wonder why Liknes didn't do something resolve the problem ... we haven't heard anything about how Liknes tried to pay for the work completed by Douglas or give him due credit for the work. All we hear is that Douglas Garland was being "petty", but that isn't how it looks to me.

The whole thing is beyond tragic.

I think we will hear a lot more on injustices (real or perceived) done by AL to DG. I bet there's a long list....

 

[otto]

I think we will hear a lot more on injustices (real or perceived) done by AL to DG. I bet there's a long list....

You're right. I just can't help but wonder if Douglas Garland had been shown some respect for his work and valued or validated when he felt cheated, maybe this could all have been avoided. Still today we have the prosecution using words like "petty" to describe what I don't yet view as "petty". We hear that he was fired for a reason that makes no sense to every person who expects to be treated with respect. The suspect was seeing a psychiatrist on a weekly basis, yet we also know that his buttons were, and still are, being pushed. That's what I don't understand. It's obvious that Garland went over the edge psychiatrically. Was that inevitable, or could circumstances have been managed to avoid this result.

Alvin claims that the patent resulted in little money, so why was it a problem to amend the patent owners and add Garland? It wasn't a financial loss, and it would have resolved the dispute. Patti and Allen knew it was an ongoing problem, so presumably Alvin knew it was a problem. Why let it fester?

 

[Lalalacasbah]

So bodies are seen - I read that bodies were never found?

A bit graphic sorry…. and maybe I'm grasping at straws in hopes they didn't suffer after reading all the graphic details, but if they were 'intact' when the aerial photo was taken, this means they were deceased (I'm hoping) before any paraphernalia/tools were used.

 

[Lalalacasbah]

[video=twitter;821478065251332096]https://twitter.com/MetroLucie/status/821478065251332096[/video]

Can anyone make out what the evidence marker #83 is in the photo? Is it book(s) or boxes? I zoomed in on the pic, but can't make it out.

 

[Lalalacasbah]

Questioning seems rather bizarre and random to me sometimes. I wonder why they would ask if anyone has diabetes?

Not sure if the question is in regards to syringes or insulin maybe in evidence but I looked up what happens when non-diabetics get injected with insulin:

"...insulin if taken in overdose in these patients or in non-diabetics can lead to hypoglycemic coma which can have varied outcome from complete reversal to death." Of course, death can happen too.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3354941/

---------

There's also Insulin Shock Therapy for mental illness:

Insulin shock therapy or insulin coma therapy (ICT) was a form of psychiatric treatment in which patients were repeatedly injected with large doses of insulin in order to produce daily comas over several weeks.[1] It was introduced in 1927 by Austrian-American psychiatrist Manfred Sakel and used extensively in the 1940s and 1950s, mainly for schizophrenia, before falling out of favour and being replaced by neuroleptic drugs in the 1960s.[2]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insulin_shock_therapy

----------

Question is - would Garland use this for himself to self medicate his mental illness or to keep a victim (Kathy/Alvin) comatose/drowsy? ETA - posted this before reading otto's referral to insulin and debilitating someone a few posts back. Definitely sounds likely if evidence of insulin comes up

 

[Lalalacasbah]

I also found it interesting that the crown asked Doreen if Douglas played any musical instruments to which she replied no, and then they confirmed with her that there wasn't a piano in the house.

Maybe they found piano strings.

 

[Lalalacasbah]

You're right. I just can't help but wonder if Douglas Garland had been shown some respect for his work and valued or validated when he felt cheated, maybe this could all have been avoided. Still today we have the prosecution using words like "petty" to describe what I don't yet view as "petty". We hear that he was fired for a reason that makes no sense to every person who expects to be treated with respect. The suspect was seeing a psychiatrist on a weekly basis, yet we also know that his buttons were, and still are, being pushed. That's what I don't understand. It's obvious that Garland went over the edge psychiatrically. Was that inevitable, or could circumstances have been managed to avoid this result.

Alvin claims that the patent resulted in little money, so why was it a problem to amend the patent owners and add Garland? It wasn't a financial loss, and it would have resolved the dispute. Patti and Allen knew it was an ongoing problem, so presumably Alvin knew it was a problem. Why let it fester?

I disagree. I do not think this could have been avoided. Douglas would have killed someone, anyone eventually because I think he obsessed and fantasized about torture and murder and wanted to act it out one way or another in his life.

He fixated his attention on Alvin and it escalated to include Kathy in his plan and eventually little Nathan. If he had simply "snapped" he could have got a gun and did a mass shooting of the whole family. He obsessed over gruesome acts, meticulously planned and I think enjoyed this. If it wasn't the Liknes' who were his victims it would've been someone else who was in his life path that "wronged" him. I think he was a time bomb waiting to go off period, JMO.

 

[musicaljoke]

You're right. I just can't help but wonder if Douglas Garland had been shown some respect for his work and valued or validated when he felt cheated, maybe this could all have been avoided. Still today we have the prosecution using words like "petty" to describe what I don't yet view as "petty". We hear that he was fired for a reason that makes no sense to every person who expects to be treated with respect. The suspect was seeing a psychiatrist on a weekly basis, yet we also know that his buttons were, and still are, being pushed. That's what I don't understand. It's obvious that Garland went over the edge psychiatrically. Was that inevitable, or could circumstances have been managed to avoid this result.

Alvin claims that the patent resulted in little money, so why was it a problem to amend the patent owners and add Garland? It wasn't a financial loss, and it would have resolved the dispute. Patti and Allen knew it was an ongoing problem, so presumably Alvin knew it was a problem. Why let it fester?

There seems to be a misconception here that Garland was fired because he didn't respond to a phone call about the breakdown of the truck. This seems to be first suggested here in post #205 as a theory that some have latched onto it as a fact.

However, that's not what was said by Allen. The truck didn't figure into the discussion about the relationship breakdown and there was no mention of needing Garland's help with a vehicle problem. Garland was asked for help with a project and he didn't help.

It sounds to me that the relationship may already have been strained and that Garland was already ignoring Alvin when Alvin "fired" him. Post #285 on pg 19 has the best record I can find of the tweets from court. I'll copy a small section here. Read from bottom to top:


Between 2007-2010 Allen and #Garland had somewhat of a relationship, but when Doug brought up being let go, Allen said they stopped talking.
By November 2007 "he had enough of him at that point" Allen said about Alvin's feelings towards #Garland. #yyc
Allen says #Garland only worked on the controller aspect of the pump. #yyc
Already at this point in 2006-2007 Allen says the pump had become "uneconomical." #Garland #yyc
#Garland was let go by Alvin as contractor for their company when Allen says Doug ignored a call for help from Alvin. #yyc
Allen says relationship changed after Alvin let #Garland go for not helping with a project. "He asked him for help and he didn't help him."
At first, Allen says #Garland and Alvin had a "good working relationship" that lasted about a year.

 

[LoisLane]

Can anyone make out what the evidence marker #83 is in the photo? Is it book(s) or boxes? I zoomed in on the pic, but can't make it out.

View attachment 108016

Maybe packaging for a hard drive? Or surgical gloves?

The blue box underneath could be for shoes.

 

[Rayemonde]

I disagree. I do not think this could have been avoided. Douglas would have killed someone, anyone eventually because I think he obsessed and fantasized about torture and murder and wanted to act it out one way or another in his life.

He fixated his attention on Alvin and it escalated to include Kathy in his plan and eventually little Nathan. If he had simply "snapped" he could have got a gun and did a mass shooting of the whole family. He obsessed over gruesome acts, meticulously planned and I think enjoyed this. If it wasn't the Liknes' who were his victims it would've been someone else who was in his life path that "wronged" him. I think he was a time bomb waiting to go off period, JMO.

I agree... He would have done something like this sooner or later. Probably to his poor parents or his sister if he hadn't had any strangers to fixate on. The mention of him glaring at his sister for 20 to 30 seconds was a creepy.

 

[mrazda71]

You're right. I just can't help but wonder if Douglas Garland had been shown some respect for his work and valued or validated when he felt cheated, maybe this could all have been avoided. Still today we have the prosecution using words like "petty" to describe what I don't yet view as "petty". We hear that he was fired for a reason that makes no sense to every person who expects to be treated with respect. The suspect was seeing a psychiatrist on a weekly basis, yet we also know that his buttons were, and still are, being pushed. That's what I don't understand. It's obvious that Garland went over the edge psychiatrically. Was that inevitable, or could circumstances have been managed to avoid this result.

Alvin claims that the patent resulted in little money, so why was it a problem to amend the patent owners and add Garland? It wasn't a financial loss, and it would have resolved the dispute. Patti and Allen knew it was an ongoing problem, so presumably Alvin knew it was a problem. Why let it fester?

I've dealt with enough 'petty' and narcissistic people in my life to know that sometimes they think they're entitled to something that they're not. They thinking they're owed something doesn't make it so ... should we humour these people and give them what they demand? Should we give in to their over inflated self worth and say 'yes, even though you didn't actually write the book you just suggested the name of the character, we'll put you down as co author and give you 50% of the royalties' ... the way I see it, it doesn't matter what Alvin did or didn't owe Garland, it would never have been enough. There would always be something to set Garland off. If he'd been paid it would be that he hadn't been paid enough, if his name was on a patent it would be that he'd want his name first not second ... I can't agree with you, that this might not have happened should Alvin have given in to Garlands demands.