Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 Jun 2014 - #23

[Hatfield]

I'm confused why they would check the women's size 12 or 13 shoes. Those would not be the same as a men's 13.

It is interesting because if he took a mens 13 and he was really wearing womens shoes then he could have found even larger womens sizes than a 13 that would have fit better. I have to wonder about a couple things about that.

He may have not wanted to buy them any larger if he was wearing a womens disguise because his feet would have stood out more than they already did with a womens 13. He may have purposely squeezed into a womens 13 to keep the shoe as small as possible so he could stay disguised and not draw attention to his feet.

Another possibility is he may have been infatuated with being "himself" or "herself" and matching his/her size may have been important to him/her.

Even another possibility is I searched some websites and you can find larger womens sizes but it is hard to do. A lot of stores only carry up to 12 or 13 or so in womens. So if he went shopping locally in person he may have been limited.

Here is an example. This store maxes out at size 13 in womens.

http://www.payless.com/womens/view-all-shoes/?prefn1=size&prefv1=11%7C12%7C13

 

[CentralAlberta]

There is an grain auger in pictures of the south fence line (I think) so I would assume at one time it must have been some kind of grain farm. Is there any way to find out if, at one time, the Garlands owned more land and these 40 acres were subdivided off? Anyway to find out what Mr. Garland's occupation was?

 

[Slebby]

I wonder if they measured the size of the"women's" shoes. I just did a bit of a google search of "high heels in men's sizes", and got an eyeful of a world I'm not accustomed to (some sites advertise some racy stuff for cross dressers)
I think it's possible DG was able to order women's style shoes but in men's sizes. Hence the "size 13s".
Just a thought.


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[Hatfield]

Ive been researching usages of Liquid Nitrogen and I do have to wonder if he used it to make dismembering of the bodies easier before he burned remains.

Many online videos of using liquid nitrogen to make something turn very brittle and then hitting it with a hammer and it basically breaks or shatters.

This part in an article today made me wonder if he did use the liquid nitrogen in that fashion. It would make his job less messy to some extent.

"Oxton said investigators could tell there had been “a lot of activity” around the far south outbuildings on the rural property and explained the grass was matted down with what appeared to be chemical burns."

http://www.newstalk770.com/2017/01/25/douglas-garland-trial-graphic-evidence-to-continue-wednesday/

Here is a demo of a pumpkin frozen wiht liquid nitrogen

[video=youtube;mYv4YUfC6Cc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYv4YUfC6Cc[/video]

 

[olivebpa1]

I wonder if they measured the size of the"women's" shoes. I just did a bit of a google search of "high heels in men's sizes", and got an eyeful of a world I'm not accustomed to (some sites advertise some racy stuff for cross dressers)
I think it's possible DG was able to order women's style shoes but in men's sizes. Hence the "size 13s".
Just a thought.


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I would have went my whole life not knowing you could buy "women's shoes" in men's sizes!

 

[Snoopster]

How much (and what types) in the way of chemicals do you need for a non-working farm?

The nitrogen they found was Linde Liquid Nitrogen. According to their website :

In liquid form, it is an agent to shock-freeze food, store biological material, perform cryosurgery and cryogenically grind plastics and rubbers, for instance.

I couldn't find a specific price/match on the Linde website to figure out where Garland got it and how much it would cost. (Of course he could have 'simply' stolen it as that was an area of expertise he had!) Perhaps someone else could find it or find distributors in Alberta.

In any case, the main point I wanted to make was that I came across this the other day when I searched for 'agricultural uses of liquid nitrogen'....

Rubber gloves that are impervious to ammonia are required for handling anhydrous. The gloves should have an extended cuff that can be turned down at the elbow to prevent the chemical from running down your sleeve when your arms are raised. Gloves should have a fairly loose fit so they can be removed quickly in an emergency, but should fit tightly enough to provide adequate protection.

You can further protect your arms from ammonia spray by wearing coveralls or a heavy work shirt that covers the arms. Thin dress shirts or short sleeves do not provide protection.

http://www.extension.umn.edu/agriculture/nutrient-management/nitrogen/using-anhydrous-ammonia-safely-on-the-farm/

The above quote relates to liquid anhydrous ammonia (made up of one part nitrogen and three parts hydrogen), which is used as an agricultural fertilizer, but it got me thinking about the "long rubber gloves" they mentioned in court today, and of course the protective overalls, etc.

I'm presuming that even heavy rubber gloves would protect you from liquid nitrogen though!

Sorry, I've been a little disconnected in these comments, but just trying to turn over ideas in my head. Any chemists on the board???

 

[Slebby]

Ive been researching usages of Liquid Nitrogen and I do have to wonder if he used it to make dismembering of the bodies easier before he burned remains.

Many online videos of using liquid nitrogen to make something turn very brittle and then hitting it with a hammer and it basically breaks or shatters.

This part in an article today made me wonder if he did use the liquid nitrogen in that fashion. It would make his job less messy to some extent.

"Oxton said investigators could tell there had been “a lot of activity” around the far south outbuildings on the rural property and explained the grass was matted down with what appeared to be chemical burns."

http://www.newstalk770.com/2017/01/25/douglas-garland-trial-graphic-evidence-to-continue-wednesday/

Here is a demo of a pumpkin frozen wiht liquid nitrogen

[video=youtube;mYv4YUfC6Cc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYv4YUfC6Cc[/video]

That just broke my heart.


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[olivebpa1]

Ive been researching usages of Liquid Nitrogen and I do have to wonder if he used it to make dismembering of the bodies easier before he burned remains.

Many online videos of using liquid nitrogen to make something turn very brittle and then hitting it with a hammer and it basically breaks or shatters.

This part in an article today made me wonder if he did use the liquid nitrogen in that fashion. It would make his job less messy to some extent.

"Oxton said investigators could tell there had been “a lot of activity” around the far south outbuildings on the rural property and explained the grass was matted down with what appeared to be chemical burns."

http://www.newstalk770.com/2017/01/25/douglas-garland-trial-graphic-evidence-to-continue-wednesday/

Here is a demo of a pumpkin frozen wiht liquid nitrogen

[video=youtube;mYv4YUfC6Cc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYv4YUfC6Cc[/video]

This was my train of thought when they brought up liquid nitrogen. I just wasn't sure if that is how it would work when poured over a human body. I'm sure a body wouldn't just shatter but it would still make it easier and less messy.

 

[Hatfield]

I would have went my whole life not knowing you could buy "women's shoes" in men's sizes!

I didnt know this either. Wow. Learned something new today.

 

[Snoopster]

http://www.newstalk770.com/2017/01/25/douglas-garland-trial-graphic-evidence-to-continue-wednesday/

I am just as confused as others regarding the whole shoe size thing, men versus women.
Regarding the footwear in the photo, I noticed that most of the 'female' footwear is flat, although there is one pair of high heels. Of course they mentioned that they found 85 pairs of shoes and the photo only includes a portion of that.

Does anyone know what size shoes Garland's mother wears? I presume it isn't 12/13 but I haven't seen info in that regard.

 

[Hatfield]

This was my train of thought when they brought up liquid nitrogen. I just wasn't sure if that is how it would work when poured over a human body. I'm sure a body wouldn't just shatter but it would still make it easier and less messy.

I guess there really is no telling unless he was to admit his devious methods of what he actually did. The bone fragments and the way LE desribed the grass looking like it was burned by a chemical had me thinking he could have used it.

I did find another interesting usage of it that tied in with his lock picking obsession. I saw where it was mentioned that people could freeze a lock with it and then smash the lock to open the lock.

He seemed to have an obsession about breaking into locks. So maybe that was his use of the liquid nitrogen too.
It makes me wonder what places he has broken into before.

Thats the trouble with this sick person is there is no bounds for what he could have done.

 

[garbagetweet]

Thanks JadeSleuth. With no apparent barn I would assume it was never a livestock farm so there would be no reason to have veterinary supplies, but I also wondered if it was ever used for crops to explain any of the chemical supplies. And since it is 40 acres, did they ever rent any of it to any local person to harvest a crop on? Is there anyone who would have had access to those buildings for any legitimate reason other than the family?

TIA

Someone would have to dig up some records from Rocky View County but it wouldn't surprise me if the Garlands originally owned more than 40 acres and it was a working farm at one point. Maybe not with a large amount of livestock but possibly a few personal animals. A few horses, cows, pigs, chickens wouldn't be inconceivable.

Over the years the Garlands may have sold off portions of the property to other farmers/ranchers and moved away from a farm/ranching operation.

 

[M***]

I think it will come out in the evidence that undercover officers attempted to get information from DG while in remand awaiting trial. Info relating to the chemicals used on the bodies...hence the return trip to the farm in March 2015.

 

[Hatfield]

I am just as confused as others regarding the whole shoe size thing, men versus women.
Regarding the footwear in the photo, I noticed that most of the 'female' footwear is flat, although there is one pair of high heels. Of course they mentioned that they found 85 pairs of shoes and the photo only includes a portion of that.

Does anyone know what size shoes Garland's mother wears? I presume it isn't 12/13 but I haven't seen info in that regard.

I dont think we know. I was wondering about that too.

 

[Kamille]

Another good video link with more evidence photos...

http://calgary.ctvnews.ca/video?clipId=1043481&binId=1.1201914&playlistPageNum=1

 

[garbagetweet]

There is no way a hospital would prefer reusable over disposable diapers IMO. For every reason we could possibly think of, and I'm sure we could come up with a lot. That is definitely not an area that a hospital is likely to cut costs in. And I've had a few experiences with family members in hospitals who required adult diapers and all were disposable.

MOO

Hospitals certainly do use reusable diapers. My kids were born at the Rockyview Hospital in Calgary and after giving birth my significant other was given thick, heavy, cloth underwear (essentially a diaper) which was used for bleeding and what not during recovery.

 

[Kamille]

I think it will come out in the evidence that undercover officers attempted to get information from DG while in remand awaiting trial. Info relating to the chemicals used on the bodies...hence the return trip to the farm in March 2015. Just a guess.

Welcome MAGA :welcome:

That's always a possibility, we know that this is done in some cases. But I'm not sure if DG would be "socializing" with others in jail considering he didn't appear to socialize in his every day life.

It appears that LE had new information at that time that related to the possibility that the victims were at the south end of the property at some time. I wonder if that is when someone thought about zooming in on that GIS map that was taken of the area on July 1st and 2nd and saw something very disturbing.

MOO

 

[Wondergirl]

Well the pre-meditated purchase of the child handcuffs by this sick SOB, leads me to think that the kidnapping of a child was purposeful and Garland chose the night to abduct because there was also a child there.

I don't think it was chance that Nathan was taken at all.

JMO

 

[M***]

My guess is the aerial images of the bodies came first, and the investigators sent in undercover officers to see if he'd talk about what he used to dispose of them so fully. Just watch.

 

[M***]

For those speculating about why the charge of first degree for Nathan, the Criminal Code states as follows:

Marginal note:Hijacking, sexual assault or kidnapping

(5) Irrespective of whether a murder is planned and deliberate on the part of any person, murder is first degree murder in respect of a person when the death is caused by that person while committing or attempting to commit an offence under one of the following sections:

(a) section 76 (hijacking an aircraft);

(b) section 271 (sexual assault);

(c) section 272 (sexual assault with a weapon, threats to a third party or causing bodily harm);

(d) section 273 (aggravated sexual assault);

(e) section 279 (kidnapping and forcible confinement); or

(f) section 279.1 (hostage taking).

Nathan was murderded in the course of kidnapping, so it is in the first degree.