Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 Jun 2014 - #28

[lecomte]

Really? Could you come to a second degree verdict knowing what you know? Even if you thought he might have been killed at the house?

No, but I could understand someone wanting to go over the evidence and the law one more time to be sure of their decision

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[dogmatica]

If ever there was a slam dunk case this was it. I think the fact that it took the jury this long points to number of systemic problems that merit consideration:

1) Overly long and complicated jury instructions
2) The ubiquitous use of overly complex "decision trees"
3) The legal version of the CSI effect where normal people take on the worst habits of TV lawyers and miss the forest for the trees.
4) The requirement for a unanimous jury decision (The UK and Australia no longer have this while US has smaller juries in some states)



I'm a huge fan of juries because they're regular people who don't and shouldn't think like lawyers and judges. That's the whole reason for juries' existence. It scares me to know that someone needed a full day to come to the right verdict. That tells me they were thinking like the worst TV lawyer.

Honestly, I think there might have been fisticuffs if it had taken any longer.

And while we will never know what happened in the jury room, I believe that the fact 10 people came back quickly recommending consecutive sentences gives a hint of what the dynamic might have been.

1) The judge gave the instructions he did for a reason.
2) The decision trees were likely a huge part of the reason the jury didn't come back with any questions.
3) I won't speculate on what "habits" the jury took on.
4) Yup, that's how we roll in Canada.

 

[otto]

Cracking a beer to toast the Crown, and going to see if there's a thread for Victoria Levesque. Her body was found East of Calgary on the weekend. She is the sister of a provincial politician, a drug user, and her death has been deemed a homicide.

 

[otto]

No, but I could understand someone wanting to go over the evidence and the law one more time to be sure of their decision

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I'm pretty sure that they have a responsibility to discuss each of the victims and come to a decision. Even if their decision was unanimous, I still think some discussion is necessary to ensure that the main points are identified and discussed.

 

[dyannaON]

The only downside from this trial is that the internet is currently flooded with crime scene photos that are associated with the names Liknes and O'brien. The fewer times those links are clicked, the more they will become buried behind other similar names. Let's step away from the crime scene photos and hope that they fall into the background before the surviving minor children are accidentally overwhelmed with them.

Great news about the verdict, and very happy to hear that the sentence could include consecutive sentencing of 75 years before he is eligible for parole. That means there is no need to have him designated a dangerous offender.

I really respect and love this.


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[winnnancy]

Really? Could you come to a second degree verdict knowing what you know? Even if you thought he might have been killed at the house?

I wonder if DG will Make a statement at his sentencing? If he could just state that Nathan was killed quickly and with mercy...

 

[PrincessButtercup]

I wonder if DG will Make a statement at his sentencing? If he could just state that Nathan was killed quickly and with mercy...

Ha, no ... he'll stand there with his blank stare.

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[ABro]

No, but I could understand someone wanting to go over the evidence and the law one more time to be sure of their decision

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Really? After the judge just explained all the evidence. What exactly do you imagine this person asking that would take hours to resolve?

Also, I would like to be clear I am not faulting this hypothetical person. As I have said, I think there are systemic reasons why people feel obliged to overthink what was clearly a slam dunk case.

I have nothing but respect for the jurors who heard this case. All of them.

 

[TobyWong*]

This was the first trial I have ever followed on Websleuths. What a smart, funny, caring and dedicated group of fine, fine folks I stumbled upon here. I have greatly enjoyed your company and I have learned so much -- not only about crime and law, but also about the basic good and humanity that exists out there in the wide world. And that is as good a rebuke to the likes of DG and his ilk as I can think of. Bravo and brava to you all, the jury, the judge and LE. And even though I never had the pleasure to meet Kathy, Alvin or Nathan, they and their families will remain in my heart. God speed.

I came to websleuths a long time ago. I don't have time to post because there are literally to many cases to follow. I read every single day. I am always thankful to start following a case & bond w it for whatevr reason. I learn. I feel. I jumped into this one about 3 weeks ago. As always amazed I hadn't heard of this case. Nathan happens to look a lot like my gorgeous grandson. Im always astounded to think holy ****** how does this crap happen. How can one human destroy so much. But I know...I'm a good human. There are bad humans. I am grateful to see them here. I'm jaded & grateful for that. Helps me & other people in my life when they hear my websleuths stories, to be aware of the hell of humanity and know there are so many more good humans than bad.
I'm sure I will cross paths w many of u on other cases. I look forward to it & dread it. I'm sure you'll all understand...

 

[otto]

I just posted a thread for Victoria Levesque. This one has a bad feel to me because she was taken out of the city as part of the murder. I think this one needs sleuthers who can tap into her social media (not something I'm good at). Hopefully it's not similar to the women who were found around the city of Edmonton, and the highway of tears murders - who were all vulnerable women, just like Victoria.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?329658-Victoria-Levesque&p=13151159#post13151159

 

[ABro]

1) The judge gave the instructions he did for a reason.
2) The decision trees were likely a huge part of the reason the jury didn't come back with any questions.
3) I won't speculate on what "habits" the jury took on.
4) Yup, that's how we roll in Canada.

These are recurring problems that crop up at trial after trial.

Judges' instructions to juries have become so overly complex they are now a major cause of successful appeals.

I didn't think being Canadian meant refusing to even consider change.

 

[otto]

Thank you to all the tweeters who gave me a place to find not only the daily updates but the inside view of the evidence

... and congratulations to Jade Sleuth with your new job!

 

[Deleted member 192280]

How do you think DG will spend his jail life? Will he commit suicide? Or somehow enjoys whatever he can get from the prison like the other psychopaths such as Scott Peterson? Maybe Canadian jail is not as comfortable?

 

[Cherchri]

Of all days to be trapped in meetings and unable to follow - a HUGE thank you to Jade, Kamille and all who have convened here since 2014. I couldn't be happier with the outcome - exactly what I hoped for. This was one of the most heinous crimes and almost beyond wild imaginings - someone who visited his shrink a couple of blocks from my home - shopped in the mall where I shop - with the darkest soul (if one can call his a soul). I will not spare him another thought. He is going where he belongs and will never see open fields again. I shall miss the many incredible insights shared here and the many delightful personalities. Rest in eternal peace Alvin, Kathy and Nathan. Wishing your loved ones peace and recovery. Kudos to the prosecutors, LE and media for their efforts. hugs for every one of you!

 

[olivebpa1]

If ever there was a slam dunk case this was it. I think the fact that it took the jury this long points to number of systemic problems that merit consideration:

1) Overly long and complicated jury instructions
2) The ubiquitous use of overly complex "decision trees"
3) The legal version of the CSI effect where normal people take on the worst habits of TV lawyers and miss the forest for the trees.
4) The requirement for a unanimous jury decision (The UK and Australia no longer have this while US has smaller juries in some states)



I'm a huge fan of juries because they're regular people who don't and shouldn't think like lawyers and judges. That's the whole reason for juries' existence. It scares me to know that someone needed a full day to come to the right verdict. That tells me they were thinking like the worst TV lawyer.

Honestly, I think there might have been fisticuffs if it had taken any longer.

And while we will never know what happened in the jury room, I believe that the fact 10 people came back quickly recommending consecutive sentences gives a hint of what the dynamic might have been.

I agree that only 10 people coming back with consecutive sentences and 2 having no opinion is telling. I was a little surprised by that.

 

[MaddieM]

Dear fellow websleuthers, I've been a lurker since the beginning of this case. This case and Nathan in particular, has always weighed heavily on me, maybe it's because in the beginning I truly believed they would be found. I just wanted to say thank you for all the posts & information, and knowing there good people out there who want justice served. I'm glad the jurors came back with the right decision. I'm leaving my kids star light on tonight for Nathan, Kathy & Alvin and for their families. 💚💚💚

 

[JadeSLeuth]

Another former lurker here. Thank you to all of you for your tremendous efforts in keeping us updated on this case over the last couple of years. Great analytical skills! Thanks, JadeSleuth, for getting the live tweets out to us! Well done everyone!

Welcome Shardon! Glad you took the plunge!

:Welcome1:

 

[JadeSLeuth]

I really want a beer.

:toastred:

 

[JadeSLeuth]

Thanks to everyone for seeing this case through to the end. May the families find peace now as their loved ones will be forever in their hearts and ours as well. This was the first case that I ever followed and it is so remarkable to find out the tough jobs that everyone tackled to bring justice for these families. I hope DG never sees the light of day again and peace to the Hartley family who will never have to worry about this using their son's identity again. This is a great group of people and I would love to check in on a future case and see the familiar names on my screen.

We will be here. And we hope you will too!

 

[Noirdame79]

I've lived in the Calgary area much of my life; my mother and sisters reside in Airdrie. This was an absolutely horrific crime and I don't know how Garland's defense could claim that he didn't do it! The aerial footage and DNA found on his farm were damning, and he had motive, but either way, what kind of monster abducts, tortures and murders three innocent people, including a five-year-old child? He is an evil, vile who deserves to rot in prison for the rest of his disgusting life!

Rest in peace, Alvin, Kathy and Nathan. Peace to their loved ones and friends.

Thank you everyone for your contributions to this thread and all the updates.