CANADA Canada - Audrey Gleave, 73, Ancaster ON, 30 Dec 2010 #10

[Salem]

Please continue here.

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NOTE: Threads 5 and 6 have been pulled for review. The threads may, or may not be returned depending upon the review.

Thanks,

Salem

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Canada - Audrey Gleave, Ancaster, Dec. 2010 *** MEDIA/TIMELINES ***NO DISCUSSION*** - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community



Thread #9

 

[bessie]

Please continue the discussion here.

Audrey Gleave

Related Links:

Sillybilly's Timeline


Who is Audrey Gleave

By John Wells, The Spec
September 17, 2011
She had always kept details of her past hidden, even from those close to her. For years she met for coffee every Wednesday with retired teacher friends from Westdale Secondary School. They had no idea that Audrey had herself attended Westdale.
While she was an enigmatic, quiet recluse, she also delighted in revving up her shiny white Camaro.

Audrey's Story continues

By John Wells, The Spec
September 19, 2011
No doubt Audrey, a deep thinker, had often wondered how things might have gone differently.

 

[dotr]

Cannot recall this article although it could be a re post..rbbm.
June 2011 by Nicole O'Reilly

Eccentric doesn’t equal murderer

Cold-case expert warns Gleave killer likely to strike again

www.hamiltonnews.com

''James Adcock, a professor, author and cold case expert who consults police in the United States, said police services investigating homicides often fall victim to “booby traps,” including tunnel vision.

DNA only solves about 30 per cent of cases, he added.

In his opinion, and without having read the police notes on the case, he said Scott doesn’t meet the profile of the murder.


People who behave oddly can be easy targets, he said.

Given the severity of Gleave’s beating and her extremely private and quiet lifestyle, Adcock believes the murder was done out of anger and was likely committed by someone she knew, someone who was watching her or someone with issues related to women.

Police need to go back and start again with the victim’s profile, he suggested. “If you know your victim, you know your murderer.”

In most homicide investigations, the killer is known to police within the first 30 days but may not be considered a suspect because they are nice or co-operative, he said.

Adcock warned that unless Gleave was murdered for a deeply personal reason, there is a likelihood the killer could strike again.
“This is not going to be the last,” he said.

Adcock also suggested police look for sexual assault cases in the area. There is a still-unexplained sexual component to Gleave’s murder.''

 

[FromGermany1]

I wish there was some way of obtaining old research papers from Audrey's days at Chalk River. Do we know the names of any of her team members? Gamma rays and baryon decay is what I'm interested in. She must have called herself "Baryon" for a reason.

I would like to point to Audrey's "mate" at the McMaster courses, who did know, what "Baryon" means and proudly told, AG was somewhat impressed by it. Initials JH? He ended one of his online stories (book) with the arrest of the barn-man (initials forgotten atm) and never added the man's release, which I found odd like some other details.
I wouldn't understand, how a man like him could have been able to enter the garage, though.

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

That Adcock article above brings back some memories = "know your victim and you'll know your killer". I believe that wholeheartedly.

Another thing to consider is that IF Sonia, Shelley and Audrey are related cases, LE are highly reluctant to use the phrase 'serial killer' or 'are related' cases. LE never want to alarm the public.

And DID this attacker/killer simply stop after Audrey?

 

[Bobbi Pearl]

I think the only reason LE published the perp's identity in the CJ case, was because it seemed like it was pretty much a 'slam dunk' case, with the perp's semen having been found on CJ's underwear which was also found at the scene with her remains. .... and there is really no other explanation for that, other than... he'd had occasion to be doing that around her underwear... I think it doesn't have to 100% mean he was the killer, but the fact that he had been doing that at any point in time, was gruesome enough to let it out. He sure would've had difficulty explaining that away, had he still been alive. In other cases, such as say 'Marianne Schuett' (sp?).. police have thought they've known the perp for many years, but without a body and without evidence, they have not publicized his name... and to me, nor should they. To me, it seems unfair to make horrible accusations without absolute proof, even after death. The family still has to live with such accusations, which could be devastating. If alive, a perp would get a trial, and have to be found guilty, before being deemed guilty, so to reveal a name without that taking place, is going down a slippery slope, imo.

I would want to know too, personally,... but... those genealogy sites where people send in their DNA, and from which LE have discovered perps such as the killer of CJ.. they have changed all of that so that it now has to be an express permission granted by the owner of the DNA to allow LE to use it in that way. The last time (a long while ago) I read about that, it seemed that many did not sign up for that. I guess many people don't trust that method, and/or are afraid of accusations being made unfairly? Who knows?

I agree with you regarding cases where they have not found a body and do not have any DNA, my thought was DNA to compare when and where you can. No genealogy sites etc. and not to be used as a hunting tool for anyone alive. Two different things in my view.

Privacy is a very slippery slope, I guess my question is how do we find an acceptable medium/middle that we can use deceased individuals' DNA against criminal activities that DNA is available to compare to?

The MS case is one that is close to me, I grew up in this area and went to Kilbride school. I truly wish they could release who they believe is the culprit. Without doing so and no remains the case sits stagnant, LE are not "looking" for anyone else, retired LE with volunteer groups are attempting to use this person's movements and daily life to see if they can find remains. I bet if they released the name the public could help.

By not publishing his name what is truly being protected in the MS case? The family's shame and embarrassment? is that worth more than a life, a child's life, that childs family wondering where she rests after all these years? The suspect's family already knew he liked to control girls and sexually assault them, he went to prison for similar deeds, and this family could not be overly surprised at his actions IMO.

It often appears the killers and their families receive more respect and privacy than any victim or law-abiding citizen. If LE are that confident it was him, they were planning to arrest him, they should release that name to us. They did it with Sharin Morningstar, they found her remains and culprit DNA, they released him a suspect. To me this should be treated the same, he was a named suspect, they had enough to investigate him and arrest him, again IMO that should be public knowledge.

 

[Gina20]

That Adcock article above brings back some memories = "know your victim and you'll know your killer". I believe that wholeheartedly.

Another thing to consider is that IF Sonia, Shelley and Audrey are related cases, LE are highly reluctant to use the phrase 'serial killer' or 'are related' cases. LE never want to alarm the public.

And DID this attacker/killer simply stop after Audrey?

Who killed Audrey Gleave?

Life pulses in the countryside, trees and fields full and green in the hamlet of Lynden, near Ancaster.

www.thespec.com

But Det. Angela Abrams says Gleave was targeted — which stands to reason, given the relative isolation of where she lived and how careful she was about letting anyone close to her.

She was a creature of habit: the times when she checked her computer, the hours she slept, coming and going from the house with her dogs.

"It was not random," says Abrams. "She would have known who it was."

Audrey knew her killer. For someone supposedly as reclusive as she was portrayed to be (but still liked flamboyant displays of speed in her muscle car), you'd think it would be simple. If she knew her killer, and she had very few contacts with people, the list of suspects would be small. Surely it would not take nearly 12 years to find him, especially with DNA testing and retesting. It was someone young and close, other experts have said. How many people fit that description? Are we waiting for a deathbed confession? Try harder. Do better. Audrey deserves answers. Let the person responsible pay the price for murder. Nice guys don't murder elderly women. Period.

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

A couple of times when I was driving a Vette, men would leave their name and phone # on my windshield with a note saying something like ´ cool car, call me ´. This happened twice when I was living in Toronto. I never called, of course.

You don’t think AG would have fallen into a trap like that, do you?

 

[Gina20]

A couple of times when I was driving a Vette, men would leave their name and phone # on my windshield with a note saying something like ´ cool car, call me ´. This happened twice when I was living in Toronto. I never called, of course.

You don’t think AG would have fallen into a trap like that, do you?

If we follow the persistent story that she was a reclusive homebody who trusted few people, no. If we go with the flamboyant speed demon who raced down city streets, maybe. But really, I don't think so. She was canny and with so many years of teaching under her belt, I'm pretty sure superficial flattery wouldn't sit well with her. Teachers have seen every trick in the books. I think she might have let her guard down with people she already let into her circle. People who let her down would find that circle closed, IMO, with no going back.

 

[deugirtni]

I was working a bit on the timeline for this case.. and I was shocked at how very early they allowed her body to be cremated, and how soon 'friends' and cleaners were allowed to go in and clean out the house. They (LE) put ALL of their eggs in one basket. Half a year later was too late to start over again, when likely all kinds of potential evidence and/or memories had become lost and blurred. jmo.

But experts say statistics show police are not likely to solve the case.

“Generally, cases are not usually solved after something like this happens,” said Paul Brienza, director of York University’s criminology and sociology program.

When investigators spend months building a case around a particular suspect and then that case falls apart, it can be almost impossible to go back to the beginning, he said, adding that a considerable amount of time and resources have already been spent.

Barring a major break, such as a sudden DNA match or new eyewitness coming forward, these cases go cold and are not solved, Brienza said.

Eccentric doesn’t equal murderer

-----------------------------------
-Tuesday, January 04, 2011

-HWPD said they completed their search of the fields and outbuildings of the abandoned farm and the Gleave residence; Sgt Terri-Lynn Collings said ‘we have released the scenes’

-Friends and a cleanup crew spent the day cleaning out her home (only 5 days after her body was discovered!)

-evening candlelight vigil held at Lynden United Church, was addressed by Rev Alison Nicholson, about 60-80 in attendance

http://www.brantfordexpositor.ca/2011/01/05/remembering-audrey



-Wednesday, January 05, 2011

-it was reported that AG’s body has already been cremated (when??)

-it was reported that PK has already been cleared as a suspect (how?)

-memorial service 11am Beckett-Glaves Family Funeral Centre on Brant Avenue in Brantford; service was to have been broadcast through a live webcast. More than 150 people attended.

http://www.brantfordexpositor.ca/2011/01/05/remembering-audrey

----------------------------------------
They had cleared one of those closest to her, but yet once they realized it wasn't a slam dunk for DS, suddenly they're not ruling anyone out. It should've been that way from the start.

"Last Friday, Stewart said investigators were not ruling anyone out."

Eccentric doesn’t equal murderer

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

Was there a reason for this rapid clean up? My gut says YES. And the rapid cremation. WHO escorted the body for cremation?

 

[Gina20]

I was working a bit on the timeline for this case.. and I was shocked at how very early they allowed her body to be cremated, and how soon 'friends' and cleaners were allowed to go in and clean out the house. They (LE) put ALL of their eggs in one basket. Half a year later was too late to start over again, when likely all kinds of potential evidence and/or memories had become lost and blurred. jmo.

But experts say statistics show police are not likely to solve the case.

“Generally, cases are not usually solved after something like this happens,” said Paul Brienza, director of York University’s criminology and sociology program.

When investigators spend months building a case around a particular suspect and then that case falls apart, it can be almost impossible to go back to the beginning, he said, adding that a considerable amount of time and resources have already been spent.

Barring a major break, such as a sudden DNA match or new eyewitness coming forward, these cases go cold and are not solved, Brienza said.

Eccentric doesn’t equal murderer

-----------------------------------
-Tuesday, January 04, 2011

-HWPD said they completed their search of the fields and outbuildings of the abandoned farm and the Gleave residence; Sgt Terri-Lynn Collings said ‘we have released the scenes’

-Friends and a cleanup crew spent the day cleaning out her home (only 5 days after her body was discovered!)

-evening candlelight vigil held at Lynden United Church, was addressed by Rev Alison Nicholson, about 60-80 in attendance

http://www.brantfordexpositor.ca/2011/01/05/remembering-audrey



-Wednesday, January 05, 2011

-it was reported that AG’s body has already been cremated (when??)

-it was reported that PK has already been cleared as a suspect (how?)

-memorial service 11am Beckett-Glaves Family Funeral Centre on Brant Avenue in Brantford; service was to have been broadcast through a live webcast. More than 150 people attended.

http://www.brantfordexpositor.ca/2011/01/05/remembering-audrey

----------------------------------------
They had cleared one of those closest to her, but yet once they realized it wasn't a slam dunk for DS, suddenly they're not ruling anyone out. It should've been that way from the start.

"Last Friday, Stewart said investigators were not ruling anyone out."

Eccentric doesn’t equal murderer

I am beginning to doubt that any DNA samples were taken from inside the house, either. The article I posted yesterday said that if someone is murdered outside their home, that is where DNA samples are taken. Police have limited resources, so they pick and choose.

Who sent LE after DLS? It seems to me that if someone "young and close" steered police toward him, it is that person who should be the prime suspect.

It is ridiculous that Hamilton police would have cleared anyone. As we know in other cases, criminal investigations continue after an arrest and right up until trial. An arrest is not a slam-dunk, indeed.

I hate that I continue to think of Paul Bernardo, who could have been caught long before he was, but for some reason got the benefit of a many mountains of doubt, IMO.

Superficial charm and good looks go a long way. They are also useful tools to a psychopath.

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

I also want to know who suggested LE look at DLS.

 

[Bobbi Pearl]

I am beginning to doubt that any DNA samples were taken from inside the house, either. The article I posted yesterday said that if someone is murdered outside their home, that is where DNA samples are taken. Police have limited resources, so they pick and choose.

Who sent LE after DLS? It seems to me that if someone "young and close" steered police toward him, it is that person who should be the prime suspect.

It is ridiculous that Hamilton police would have cleared anyone. As we know in other cases, criminal investigations continue after an arrest and right up until trial. An arrest is not a slam-dunk, indeed.

I hate that I continue to think of Paul Bernardo, who could have been caught long before he was, but for some reason got the benefit of a many mountains of doubt, IMO.

Superficial charm and good looks go a long way. They are also useful tools to a psychopath.

DLS was already in custody, arrested the day before she was found, he had a knife on him when arrested in the local area of AG home, thus why they looked immediately at him and tunnel-visioned so quickly.

I need to remind myself, that police cannot arrest without court approval, someone in the justice department, not law enforcement determines they have enough evidence to convict and therefore no doubt and you can arrest. LE looks for facts and evidence for the justice dept to use in courts of law. Maybe in this case the prosecutor decided they had the culprit already and did not ask the LE to further investigate the matter.

I am not sure they did not take prints from inside, in one of your articles posted above it stated that they escorted PK inside to look to see if anything was out of place or missing? So they were inside looking around, they possibly required a warrant to enter the home if the door was locked between home and garage - do we know that detail?

 

[Gina20]

I would like to point to Audrey's "mate" at the McMaster courses, who did know, what "Baryon" means and proudly told, AG was somewhat impressed by it. Initials JH? He ended one of his online stories (book) with the arrest of the barn-man (initials forgotten atm) and never added the man's release, which I found odd like some other details.
I wouldn't understand, how a man like him could have been able to enter the garage, though.

Mohawk College?

 

[Gina20]

DLS was already in custody, arrested the day before she was found, he had a knife on him when arrested in the local area of AG home, thus why they looked immediately at him and tunnel-visioned so quickly.

I need to remind myself, that police cannot arrest without court approval, someone in the justice department, not law enforcement determines they have enough evidence to convict and therefore no doubt and you can arrest. LE looks for facts and evidence for the justice dept to use in courts of law. Maybe in this case the prosecutor decided they had the culprit already and did not ask the LE to further investigate the matter.

I am not sure they did not take prints from inside, in one of your articles posted above it stated that they escorted PK inside to look to see if anything was out of place or missing? So they were inside looking around, they possibly required a warrant to enter the home if the door was locked between home and garage - do we know that detail?

No, we don't know whether the door to the house was locked or not. That's key. If someone was planning to pick Audrey up or if she was going somewhere, Audrey would have had sense to lock it.

We don't know where exactly prints were gathered. We don't know if evidence containing DNA was taken inside the house. Consider whether or not it was good practice to take a potential suspect into the house. The article I posted discussed crime scene contamination. Police allowed the crime scene to be contaminated by a potential suspect in this case. What's the excuse for doing that?

 

[Bobbi Pearl]

Not sure if this has been answered in past, do we know if the dogs were in cages inside the house, or were they locked in a room or running wild around the house? Also did the dogs have any cuts or look like they fought anyone off, did anyone take samples from the dogs were they fed a drug to sleep? Remember neighbors heard the dogs barking - how long did they bark for, and why did the dogs stop barking?

Why did they not scratch there way through the door to get to her, that is what I think those dogs would do for her, so wondering how she ended up in the garage without them at the hour that the dogs were barking no stores would be open, what would take her to the garage?

Another thought, all of AG friends say she was secretive and shared little but we are really not aware of how many friends she actually had and what level of intimacy/ privilege into her privacy each of them had. I think she enjoyed a variety of friends/relationships with individuals with different areas of intellect and they connected with her on some point or matter. IMO she did not mix these groups of friends, she kept those relationships individual and did not share with others that she had friends in those "fields or age groups". Her connecting with a young adult is not surprising for a retired senior woman buying a camero, she was young at heart.

We have some family friends that smoke weed like cigarettes, it is CBD and they do not get "high" but you do not know that from the smell, we love them so very much and they are really very normal people, but I would never introduce them to anyone that I know that would offend or require their opinion. It is not necessary that we would have the need to explain their actions and really saves so much drama. We just make sure some paths never cross. IMO that is what AG did to an extent.

Some people were allowed inside, some she visited with outside - we do not know how many others other than PK visited with her inside, the perp could have been in the home with the dogs "contained" and she ran to the garage to attempt escape. Same about hugging, she hugged her vet, I can understand that, she was truly grateful for his caring of her loved ones for so many years, he nursed her through so much I am sure they had a special bond, and hugging him in the vet office was no problem, no bounds overstepped.

Police would have a better idea from her online communications and phone records of who she kept relations with.

 

[deugirtni]

I am beginning to doubt that any DNA samples were taken from inside the house, either. The article I posted yesterday said that if someone is murdered outside their home, that is where DNA samples are taken. Police have limited resources, so they pick and choose.

Who sent LE after DLS? It seems to me that if someone "young and close" steered police toward him, it is that person who should be the prime suspect.

It is ridiculous that Hamilton police would have cleared anyone. As we know in other cases, criminal investigations continue after an arrest and right up until trial. An arrest is not a slam-dunk, indeed.

I hate that I continue to think of Paul Bernardo, who could have been caught long before he was, but for some reason got the benefit of a many mountains of doubt, IMO.

Superficial charm and good looks go a long way. They are also useful tools to a psychopath.

I also want to know who suggested LE look at DLS.

Not sure if the link still works, but, I found this as well this morning. I am wondering if their numerous tips were in regard to DS being seen with his knife, which is what got him arrested on unrelated charges by Brantford police, and possibly just people complaining about a homeless guy holding out in a vacant barn not that far away from AG's residence, not realizing he had the owner's permission to be there?:

Scott had reportedly been living in a vacant barn just a few kilometres from the crime scene, and was arrested just a day before her body was found on unrelated charges. At the time police would not say if he was a suspect in the case.

Police say numerous tips from the public played a big role in the arrest, and people who live nearby say they are relieved that a suspect has been identified.

Lee Costa lives in the area, she says "We all have children and families that are close to us. I am just ecstatic that they found him."

Police say the investigation is ongoing, and won't comment on the possibility of other suspects. They are asking anyone with information on Scott's whereabouts around the time of the murder to call police at 905-546-4925.

Police arrest man in murder of retired teacher

Hamilton police say they have arrested David Laurie Scott, 50, of no fixed address, in connection with the brutal murder of Audrey Gleave.

swo.ctv.ca

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

I've always felt badly for DS because he was such an easy fall-guy. Too easy. It reminds me of when LE arrested Guy-Paul Morin - God forbid that anyone should "be different". Sad!

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

Not sure if this has been answered in past, do we know if the dogs were in cages inside the house, or were they locked in a room or running wild around the house? Also did the dogs have any cuts or look like they fought anyone off, did anyone take samples from the dogs were they fed a drug to sleep? Remember neighbors heard the dogs barking - how long did they bark for, and why did the dogs stop barking?

Why did they not scratch there way through the door to get to her, that is what I think those dogs would do for her, so wondering how she ended up in the garage without them at the hour that the dogs were barking no stores would be open, what would take her to the garage?

Another thought, all of AG friends say she was secretive and shared little but we are really not aware of how many friends she actually had and what level of intimacy/ privilege into her privacy each of them had. I think she enjoyed a variety of friends/relationships with individuals with different areas of intellect and they connected with her on some point or matter. IMO she did not mix these groups of friends, she kept those relationships individual and did not share with others that she had friends in those "fields or age groups". Her connecting with a young adult is not surprising for a retired senior woman buying a camero, she was young at heart.

We have some family friends that smoke weed like cigarettes, it is CBD and they do not get "high" but you do not know that from the smell, we love them so very much and they are really very normal people, but I would never introduce them to anyone that I know that would offend or require their opinion. It is not necessary that we would have the need to explain their actions and really saves so much drama. We just make sure some paths never cross. IMO that is what AG did to an extent.

Some people were allowed inside, some she visited with outside - we do not know how many others other than PK visited with her inside, the perp could have been in the home with the dogs "contained" and she ran to the garage to attempt escape. Same about hugging, she hugged her vet, I can understand that, she was truly grateful for his caring of her loved ones for so many years, he nursed her through so much I am sure they had a special bond, and hugging him in the vet office was no problem, no bounds overstepped.

Police would have a better idea from her online communications and phone records of who she kept relations with.

1. Apparently the dogs were quiet inside the house. Drug tests showed that the dogs weren't drugged.
2. From what PK told us, he was the one and only person AG let into her house. He and she sat on the couch together, inside.
3. I think we know that Audrey went to LV's home for dinners but LV and AG remained outdoors at AG's house.