CANADA Canada - Audrey Gleave, 73, Ancaster ON, 30 Dec 2010 #2

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Greetings fellow page dwellers :)

Some other thoughts:

What would AG do if someone came to the door unannounced? Would she motion them to the garage, and then open the door herself from the inside. Or would she deny any access? (Maybe this has been addressed already....?)

Were there any "religion peddlers" in the area at that time? (We get them here, weekly...
Just had some yesterday. I don't answer...anymore)

I wondering if the dogs would bark well in advance if someone was approaching the house. I assume, like mine, they would. If I were a stranger up to no good, I'd be tempted to pick another house and leave, once I heard the dogs. Unless I knew how to handle those dogs, or had info that they would be handled by AG, to prevent attack.

Copied and waiting for PK to (hopefully) respond. :)
 
AG may simply have slipped on her coat and sneakers and let them out for potty break and came to someone's attention. Just this summer( in my jammies) I let the dogs out in the yard very late at night, when lo and behold- there was a transient man fast asleep on my bench swing, all cuddled up with a pillow!I When he saw me, he gave me a very rude salute...I live in a very urban area, I wonder if it would be different in a rural setting....
 
AG may simply have slipped on her coat and sneakers and let them out for potty break and came to someone's attention. Just this summer( in my jammies) I let the dogs out in the yard very late at night, when lo and behold- there was a transient man fast asleep on my bench swing, all cuddled up with a pillow!I When he saw me, he gave me a very rude salute...I live in a very urban area, I wonder if it would be different in a rural setting....

That could very well be. I often let mine out at night and go outside too. And if he starts barking, I usually call him (thinking it's probably only a rabbit or squirrel he's barking at) and send him in the house b4 I go in. My brother does the same with his.

She may have sent them in and then stayed out for a smoke, which is what I used to do too...before the nic gum.
 
Safarik asked rhetorically when considering the Gleave case. “Hmm … My advice is look young and look close.”


OK, so how many young men live close to Audrey's house?
He's referring to relationships (i.e., family, friend, lover, etc) as opposed to physical proximity. Hate to say it (and I'm sure I'm not the only one thinking this) but PK fits squarely into that zone.
 
He's referring to relationships (i.e., family, friend, lover, etc) as opposed to physical proximity. Hate to say it (and I'm sure I'm not the only one thinking this) but PK fits squarely into that zone.

OK, thanks for correcting my error in thinking. Or, my error in interpreting his words.:tyou:
 
He's referring to relationships (i.e., family, friend, lover, etc) as opposed to physical proximity. Hate to say it (and I'm sure I'm not the only one thinking this) but PK fits squarely into that zone.

Yes, that was my take on it, too.
 
I bumped into my friend following is some points of interest:
-All important documents were found in AGs purse. There was no banking information in her purse, nor could LV find banking records in the house. LV had to go to major branches making enquiries and finally found AG banked at the Teachers Credit Union.
-AG paid for everything (including groceries) with a credit card, she did not debit. Once/month a withdrawl was made for several hundred dollars. She questioned what she would need that money for. (me assuming she paid PK in cash)
-LV purchased a new car and LE followed up asking questions where the monies came from etc. So clearly everyone is suspect.
-They were all shocked to find out about prior marriages over the several years she knew AG only fartface and AG mother in law was ever mentioned.
HER speculation/questions.
-something or someone made AG as paranoid as she was
-was AG in a witness protection program?
-was AG a CIA at some time? (me thinking of Chalk River)
-was AG being bribed, lending a helping hand (cash) to someone (ie: a secret pregnancy, child given up, recently reconnected?)

ummm...that's all I remember right now.

Well thankyou for all those very interesting tidbits, I share some of those questions,Chalk River,maybe arranged marriage for immigration?Challenged someone's thesis? Taking financial care of a distant hidden relative, or someone else's Mother? but for now- thanks for actually calling him "FF"!lol.
 
http://www.thespec.com/news/crime/article/599195--harassment-complaint-yields-a-marijuana-hauler
"The couple, he’s 46 and she is 42, told police they had no idea who the man was or why he had been taking pictures of them and following them around the city the previous few days — even turning up outside their home — and they were fed up with the harassment.

Sergeant Terri-Lynn Collings said the couple had no idea who the man was.

When police asked the stranger to get out of his car, he refused and promptly locked the door."
 
I bumped into my friend following is some points of interest:
-All important documents were found in AGs purse. There was no banking information in her purse, nor could LV find banking records in the house. LV had to go to major branches making enquiries and finally found AG banked at the Teachers Credit Union.
-AG paid for everything (including groceries) with a credit card, she did not debit. Once/month a withdrawl was made for several hundred dollars. She questioned what she would need that money for. (me assuming she paid PK in cash)
-LV purchased a new car and LE followed up asking questions where the monies came from etc. So clearly everyone is suspect.
-They were all shocked to find out about prior marriages over the several years she knew AG only fartface and AG mother in law was ever mentioned.
HER speculation/questions.
-something or someone made AG as paranoid as she was
-was AG in a witness protection program?
-was AG a CIA at some time? (me thinking of Chalk River)
-was AG being bribed, lending a helping hand (cash) to someone (ie: a secret pregnancy, child given up, recently reconnected?)

ummm...that's all I remember right now.

I'm was wondering how AG paid her utilities -- internet, cheques, cash?

Something I read intrigued me regarding AG (paraphrasing here) requesting to look into anyone's computer virus. I found this of interest, in that I too wondered did she discover highly classified information during an attempt to dissect a computer virus.

AG had more than one computer -- why? Not trying to victimize the victim, but curious as to the eccentricities AG seemed to exhibit -- was there real cause for the paranoia or was the private/secret(s) life just the person she wanted to portray.

Such an intelligent woman, wondering what subjects she conversed about at her Wednesday coffee group.

IMO, this case is more complicated than I once thought -- it's a big onion with many layers and once LE gets all of them peeled away, IMO there is going to be so much more to the story.

Married at 16 -- what about school and why would her parents allow this.

IMO only
 
OK, thanks for correcting my error in thinking. Or, my error in interpreting his words.:tyou:
Well, perhaps not. It looks like your interpretation was correct the first time around. I went back to read the article and the profiler describes the unsub as someone who targets and stalks older women. ( link )

“(The killer) has knowledge that an elderly female lives there by herself,” said Mark Safarik, a retired FBI profiler with expertise in violent crime against the elderly.

Safarik said those who kill the elderly “are not opportunistic offenders. They are not breaking into a place and stumbling upon the victim. He knows she’s there, know she’s by herself, and he goes there with intent to sexually assault and murder her. This is different than prior research suggesting women were opportunistic victims of non-violent offenders who become violent at the scene.”

These are angry young men with pent-up rage toward women and likely live with a female authority figure, he said. They are socially incompetent men who perceive little control in their lives, are typically undereducated, have substance abuse problems and are unemployed or in a menial job.

“For these guys, there is not a lot of planning, and they don’t stay at the scene long. They leave evidence, don’t clean up. They don’t think that far ahead.”

They use far more violence than necessary to kill. Overkill is indicative of their anger. This had been the case on Indian Trail.

They attack elderly women because they are easy targets — a child does not present as ready a victim because he is seen as having guardianship, whereas an elderly woman on her own has none. These killers also tend to live relatively close to their victim.

“But a homeless guy in his 40s or 50s?” Safarik asked rhetorically when considering the Gleave case. “Hmm … My advice is look young and look close.”

I was thinking more along the lines of a secret paramour or someone with an axe to grind. Therefore, my own bias colored my interpretation.
 
Well, perhaps not. It looks like your interpretation was correct the first time around. I went back to read the article and the profiler describes the unsub as someone who targets and stalks older women. ( link )

“(The killer) has knowledge that an elderly female lives there by herself,” said Mark Safarik, a retired FBI profiler with expertise in violent crime against the elderly.

Safarik said those who kill the elderly “are not opportunistic offenders. They are not breaking into a place and stumbling upon the victim. He knows she’s there, know she’s by herself, and he goes there with intent to sexually assault and murder her. This is different than prior research suggesting women were opportunistic victims of non-violent offenders who become violent at the scene.”

These are angry young men with pent-up rage toward women and likely live with a female authority figure, he said. They are socially incompetent men who perceive little control in their lives, are typically undereducated, have substance abuse problems and are unemployed or in a menial job.

“For these guys, there is not a lot of planning, and they don’t stay at the scene long. They leave evidence, don’t clean up. They don’t think that far ahead.”

They use far more violence than necessary to kill. Overkill is indicative of their anger. This had been the case on Indian Trail.

They attack elderly women because they are easy targets — a child does not present as ready a victim because he is seen as having guardianship, whereas an elderly woman on her own has none. These killers also tend to live relatively close to their victim.

“But a homeless guy in his 40s or 50s?” Safarik asked rhetorically when considering the Gleave case. “Hmm … My advice is look young and look close.”

I was thinking more along the lines of a secret paramour or someone with an axe to grind. Therefore, my own bias colored my interpretation.


Yes, I don't think this case is clear cut at all. So many theories, so many directions it could have taken. In the end, AG was vulnerable; it was the holidays, when homes were left unattended. Who knows what could have happened?!! Perhaps it was someone who thought AG's place was unoccupied for the holidays.

Lynden Road/Indian Trail is a 'through' road according to an early poster. I wonder who was familiar with this road and the houses along it.
 
Was she killed in her house and dragged outside to the garage? Was it a scenario much like SV's murder where the perp was going to get her body into her car and dump it somewhere? Neighbours dogs were barking, they heard or smelled something. Did this freak the perp out enough to abandon the 'mission'. I think she was being watched for a long time, and Christmas week was a great opportunity to carry this murder out, other aquaintances and friends being otherwise occupied.
 
IMO she was expecting someone but the person that arrived was not expecting her to be home.
 
In the pictures of AG's car being removed by LE, there was no blood visible on it. I find it odd that there was no apparent blood spattering, given stabbing and bludgeoning, combined with the description of her crowded garage and that her body must have been in close proximity to the car. Possibly the "horrific" scene that Sgt Hrab referred to was inside the home, and what PK witnessed in the garage was a result of AG having been moved there for some unknown reason.
 
Was she killed in her house and dragged outside to the garage? Was it a scenario much like SV's murder where the perp was going to get her body into her car and dump it somewhere? Neighbours dogs were barking, they heard or smelled something. Did this freak the perp out enough to abandon the 'mission'. I think she was being watched for a long time, and Christmas week was a great opportunity to carry this murder out, other aquaintances and friends being otherwise occupied.

Very good points here. So - did the killer also kill SV?
 
I think it's quite possible. It seems like a sexual attack with beating and stabbing.
I keep coming back to the time 2.30 a.m. something terrible was happening that would have set AV's dogs and the neighbours dog's too. Did the Fergusons switch their lights on?
2.3o also the time noises were heard from SV's home. From the description of AG's garage there was not much room, and why would she be out there at that time?
I still see many similarities in both cases, I think SV would have put up a bigger fight and AG would have been an easier target.
 
Question for PK - are you still here, PK?

Was Audrey's garage connected by a door to the house or did Audrey have to exit the house in order to enter the garage?

I'm asking this because some of us think there's a connection between the Audrey killing and the murder of SV (Sonia Varaschin of Orangeville).

Do you have any idea if Audrey's body was dragged out from the house and placed in the garage - ie. a door left open to the house itself when the killer fled possibly out of fear from the dogs barking (at the neighbour's house).

Thanks in advance. :)
 
I am going to include SL as well, another fairly young athletic woman who probably put up a fight. These were all women with regular habits alone at times. I cannot see someone boldly driving up AG's long driveway, but it looks like she was surrounded by dense woods.
From the Tim Hortons in Orangeville you can see SV's unit quite clearly in the winter, but in the summer it is quite a dense copse easy to hide in. I wish we knew more, all I can say is that along with KF dumped in aCaledon ditch as well there surely cannot be four killers! there must be a connection between some of them.
 
That's exactly what I've been thinking libyana! And I also include SL (Shelley Loder of Mono) in this string of attacks/murders.

As you said, there simply cannot be 3-4 people out there in such a relatively small area of Southern Ontario who are attacking/killing women. Can there? :eek:
 
KF's murder intrigues me. It was after Christmas when it was really cold, any kind of stalking would have been impossible here in Caledon, cold visibility and footprints etc.
Did the killer pick her up in Toronto and bring her up here? He has to live somewhere.
She was dumped close to SV, very creepy. LE has been very quiet about her, not a word on how she died.
 
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