CANADA Canada - Audrey Gleave, 73, Ancaster ON, 30 Dec 2010 #7

[MsSherlock]

Quoted from MsSherlock's post:

<<< Date of death : Audrey Gleave's body was found last Thursday by a young man who used to do odd jobs for her in her home several kilometres to the east of the abandoned Lynden Road farm>>>



OK, so this struck me - by a young man who used to do odd jobs for her

"Used to" do odd jobs? So, at the time of Audrey's death/MURDER was he merely a friend/e-mail buddy/cake delivery guy and not her handyman anymore?

Why was I under the impression that he still was her handyman in spite of his newly married status? Did the rest of you think that as well?

:twocents:

No Stone-I wasn't overly surprised at the past tense. After reading the papers/research that PK was involved with at Mac, I figured he'd be moving on to his PhD or larger research roles. IMO, if this was the case he may no longer have had time to actually commit to AG for regular chores. Plus, IMO, his newlywed status also probably put time constraints on him and wasn't he also involved with the Church? (superman?? :dunno Perhaps he was going to help her out when he could, keeping in touch via email, scheduled visits, etc? MOO

 

[Chorley8]

LE has been so closed on this case-IMHO, like everyone here, feels that AG deserves justice but it's so hard with such little evidence to go on. IMO, the murder contained an "anger" component.
Anger could be
1) jealousy (friendship, possessiveness, love interest, possessions, lifestyle)
2) financial(owing someone, someone owing, perhaps a financial comment, wanting something of financial interest ie. land etc)
3) hatred (sexual orientation, racist/bigoted opinions, religion)

When I consider the description of the murder by Hrab with the "sexual component" and trophy statement, IMO, it sounds like something was cut off, leading me to figure out how hatred would fit in with AG. What would cause this hatred? Religious beliefs that AG was evil? Jealousy from someone who thought AG was spending too much time with someone else? Jealous that someone admired AG and acted on a possessive streak? A condescending manner towards someone-insinuating they weren't bright, or were lazy or not good enough to be a friend or perhaps good enough for a friend to have as a partner or friend? Or just a sick random person who hated women? (IMO, AG's dogs would not have been locked in a room if it was the latter.)
Also, IMO, AG didn't have time to scream or alert the dogs but rather ambushed and instantly silenced with a stab or blow to the head while chatting in the garage leaning up against her car while she was getting a smoke or something? Then once on the ground, the hatred and anger (JA style) really set in, resulting in the overkill. JMHO

Great post yes a real conundrum. Doesn't on the face of it fit with the financial angle though of course it could.

Of course these remain two separate things. It is fairly common to have someone get stabbed multiple times. Common to take a souvenir. But if body part unusual and doesn't fit (typically) with many of the scenarios tried out here - doesn't fit with my own main theories. Statistically for example how many women would kill for money murder to do it then take a part of the person's body either as a disguise or out of some type of lust/anger. Would have to be very very unusual.

For some reason and I cannot explain why - so I emphasize this is an intuitive rather than rational thought - what always comes into my mind with Audrey and this aspect is the story of the head of John the Baptist and Salome. Sorry I don't usually move away from logical analysis but have to say that image is constantly in my mind. Yes I realize it wasn't Audrey's head! We aren't allowed to speculate but there are only so many possibilities of course. So the murder suggested or ordered by someone could be an intimate of someone we have already discussed - or not.

Salome - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So thanks for emphasizing this (again) we have to keep this strange fact in mind!

 

[Chorley8]

OK this point about LE believing she was killed three days before. Is this the barking dog thing again or the result of the autopsy? If the result of the autopsy then (probably) we can put other timelines to rest. If because of the barking dogs then I think we know nothing about day or time of death.

There was interesting discussion about time of death in an earlier thread. A least one poster argued persuasively (though I know little on this subject) that the fact that her eyes were open "staring" (source P.K.) suggest a very recent death I think within 24 hours.

Any thoughts from new posters (or anyone) on this subject?

Keeping an open mind no doubt too open my timeline for time of death is as early as the 22nd of Dec. (late afternoon or later) to shortly before P.K.'s arrival on the 30th. The evidence for a date LATER than the 27th is:

1. eyes open??

2. P.K. no obvious signs of mess from the dogs I imagine he would mean visual or olfactory.

3. anything else that fits a later timeline?

If the autopsy said three days then I think we can go with that though. Do we know?

LE of course will also have all her emails etc. (hopefully).

One other old conundrum if I have this right:

1. P.K. said he always spoke to Audrey before he came over EVEN though he knew she had been ill.

2. He didn't on the 30th yet still came

From the recent article link:

"She emailed Phil photos she had taken of him working in her yard, as well as cooking articles for him to pass along to Alex, who was a pastry chef at a French restaurant in Dundas.

If Phil was out for dinner at a fancy place, she encouraged him to take photos of his food and email her the pictures. She loved gourmet foods and &#8220;creative plating,&#8221; even though she didn't allow herself enough time to embrace the hobby.

Instead, her idea of a perfect meal at home was a chicken pot pie from Costco.

As close a friend as Phil was, of all the times he was in the house, she never served him coffee or watched TV with him. They would always chat on the same couch, just outside the kitchen. She would either shut Togi and Schatze in a large kennel crate she kept in the house, or urge them to be nice to Phil.

When he visited, Phil would push the number code on the keypad outside the automatic garage door, meet her in the garage, then chat either inside or out. That was the routine.


That is a lot of emails. 2,000 in three or four years.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

:floorlaugh: The party is back on:

(1 members and 6 guests)

Sometimes I :seeya: am a "guest" because I need time to read and translate and press the Thanks-button, but the program has fun to repeatedly log me out. Now I first read all news, at another time I log in and make my Thanks.

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

I still find the 'relationship' between PK and AG to be a strange one. Much more than handyman + older lady who needs help. Much more.........

What was that 'relationship'?

- Birds of a feather?
- Like attracts like?
- Intellectuals?
- Flip sides of the same coin?

On and on it goes.......:twocents:

Oh yeah, and he found her dead body! Mere happenstance?

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

Copied from Silly Billy's timeline:

<<< Nov 2010 Approx mid to late November, Audrey's mailbox was smashed >>>



So if PK was no longer her handyman, why did he take her shopping (stealing, too) for a new mailbox part? You know, the time she had 'the night of her life'? At night, at Canadian Tire, leaving AK at home alone. A newlywed.........

Something's off here. Or.......he's really really really a nice guy and AG was incapable of driving her hot Camaro to Canadian Tire alone to get/steal the mailbox part.

He's probably just a really nice guy..........

:twocents:

And now I'm quoting myself :floorlaugh: !

But again.........was he a newlywed who left his new bride at home so he could tool around with Audrey and give her ' the night of her life ' in a Canadian Tire store? WHY???????????? Audrey certainly had hot wheels which she could drive alone and she certainly knew how to buy/steal a mailbox. Gimme a break here. :facepalm:

:rockon:

 

[MsSherlock]

And now I'm quoting myself :floorlaugh: !

But again.........was he a newlywed who left his new bride at home so he could tool around with Audrey and give her ' the night of her life ' in a Canadian Tire store? WHY???????????? Audrey certainly had hot wheels which she could drive alone and she certainly knew how to buy/steal a mailbox. Gimme a break here. :facepalm:

:rockon:

No Stone! Glad to see I'm not the only one that chatters to myself! :floorlaugh: Never looked at that from that angle. Perhaps this is a part truth? Maybe PK and AG did go to Canadian Tire that night, but did more that PK has to keep quiet about? Perhaps that trip that night involved a trip to the Mac computer lab or the Casino? Something that he would have to keep quiet about for fear it would cause other parties to be upset or jealous? The night may very well have been the night of her life and this is the only way PK can get the notion of AG having so much fun out without implicating himself or AG somehow? Brings me to the question-who did smash her mailbox? Someone AG knew-or someone PK knew? Or, yes, perhaps "random" mailbox smashers? Mailbox smashed in November-AG dead in December. MOO

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

No Stone! Glad to see I'm not the only one that chatters to myself! :floorlaugh: Never looked at that from that angle. Perhaps this is a part truth? Maybe PK and AG did go to Canadian Tire that night, but did more that PK has to keep quiet about? Perhaps that trip that night involved a trip to the Mac computer lab or the Casino? Something that he would have to keep quiet about for fear it would cause other parties to be upset or jealous? The night may very well have been the night of her life and this is the only way PK can get the notion of AG having so much fun out without implicating himself or AG somehow? Brings me to the question-who did smash her mailbox? Someone AG knew-or someone PK knew? Or, yes, perhaps "random" mailbox smashers? Mailbox smashed in November-AG dead in December. MOO

I hear ya......but the part that bothers me is the newlywed thing. My husband and I will have our 35th anniversary this Fall, so now I'm cool with him leaving me alone and doing his own thing.

But when we were first married......like in the first year of marriage I think things are different for couples.

This now begs the quesation - did AK go along that night? Did they go as a foursome - PK & AK + AG & someone else? Is that why everyone 'had such a blast'?

Give that some thought please!

:rockon:

 

[Chorley8]

Reading J.H.'s book chapter 4 or 5 talking about feminism and that following discussion of wife who ditched him for lawyer and his breakdown as a result of that and other trials.

Brings up topic of Germaine Greer then compares Audrey Gleave to Germaine Greer. Also comments that she was "so sparse with her friends". Comments that at that point there had been an arrest.

 

[dotr]

Great post yes a real conundrum. Doesn't on the face of it fit with the financial angle though of course it could.

Of course these remain two separate things. It is fairly common to have someone get stabbed multiple times. Common to take a souvenir. But if body part unusual and doesn't fit (typically) with many of the scenarios tried out here - doesn't fit with my own main theories. Statistically for example how many women would kill for money murder to do it then take a part of the person's body either as a disguise or out of some type of lust/anger. Would have to be very very unusual.

For some reason and I cannot explain why - so I emphasize this is an intuitive rather than rational thought - what always comes into my mind with Audrey and this aspect is the story of the head of John the Baptist and Salome. Sorry I don't usually move away from logical analysis but have to say that image is constantly in my mind. Yes I realize it wasn't Audrey's head! We aren't allowed to speculate but there are only so many possibilities of course. So the murder suggested or ordered by someone could be an intimate of someone we have already discussed - or not.

Salome - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So thanks for emphasizing this (again) we have to keep this strange fact in mind!

bbm.
One could almost see a modern day woman cause the symbolic " death" of someone by publicly discrediting an expert to impress an amateur.


"In "Salome" (1896) by the Greek poet Constantine Cavafy, characterized by some critics as "neo-Pagan", Salome instigated the death of John the Baptist as part of a futile effort to get the interest of "a young sophist who was indifferent to the charms of love". When Salome presents to him the Baptist's head, the sophist rejects it, remarking in jest "Dear Salome, I would have liked better to get your own head". Taking the jest seriously, the hopelessly infatuated Salome lets herself be beheaded and her head is duly brought to the sophist, who however rejects it in disgust and turns back to studying the Dialogues of Plato"

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

It's a good day for reading. I've been doing some reading as well and I learned that (in the UK) 72% of all murders are committed by someone known to the victim.

Just thought I'd pass that along........

:twocents:

 

[Deleted member 102539]

And now I'm quoting myself :floorlaugh: !

But again.........was he a newlywed who left his new bride at home so he could tool around with Audrey and give her ' the night of her life ' in a Canadian Tire store? WHY???????????? Audrey certainly had hot wheels which she could drive alone and she certainly knew how to buy/steal a mailbox. Gimme a break here. :facepalm:

:rockon:

Since longer time I had just the thoughts you also have. If AG had been PK's mother and he had spent so much hours with her, then as his new wife I had been annoying. AG wasn't PK's mother - so much the worse; he was only her handyman (and perhaps friend). The idea that I have go to work at the restaurant while my husband is chatting on the couch ...! The idea that with my new husband in my little free time I visit a foreign restaurant and my husband has to take pictures of the meal because of the request of his "handy-boss-friend" ...! I would be pissed more and more. Nevertheless I don't imagine a woman like her as a suspect, because of the sort of murder. May be I would have much *****ed him up till the fuse was blown at him. May be his sexual thoughts of the last years, having while in contact with a smart and verbally provocative (?) and formerly attractive woman came to fruition - and also the frustration of not to inherit, when she would die (if he knew).
PK is not my only suspect, but facts and eventually motive speak especially against him. After the memorial AK made a strange impression to me, as if she was afraid to open her mouth ... this adding to all things before. MOO

 

[Deleted member 102539]

I hear ya......
..............................
This now begs the question - did AK go along that night? Did they go as a foursome - PK & AK + AG & someone else? Is that why everyone 'had such a blast'?

Give that some thought please!

:rockon:

If this person had been JV, then I have to rearrange my thoughts and suspects.

 

[MsSherlock]

It's a good day for reading. I've been doing some reading as well and I learned that (in the UK) 72% of all murders are committed by someone known to the victim.

Just thought I'd pass that along........

:twocents:

No Stone IMO, the fact the dogs were locked in a room in the house leads me to believe that AG's murderer falls into those stats. LV brings AG soup in the morning but we don't know how long she stayed with AG. :banghead: LF receives an email with Amazing Grace link at 6 pm and from all accounts, only PK and LF received that email. IMHO, LE seems to be holding onto all the info hoping that somehow, someday, someone will confess? There's a lot of info I'd like to know. How many times did AG send the same emails to PK & LF? Exactly who in the coffee group received the email that AG wasn't going to be there on Wednesday?

IMO, AG emailed PK in the morning that she was going and according to LE, LF was the last person AG had contact with at 6 pm on the 27th, so exactly when did the email/phone call to the coffee group member go out? Did LE collect DNA from everyone in AG's circle? Did they perform polygraphs on anyone aside for PK? Had AG picked up her mail on the 27,28 or 29th? Guess it's a bit late now to ask the mail carrier. Was there any activity from AG's IPS address and her provider during those days or was her internet quiet? JMHO, this whole investigation looks sloppy and the irregularities aren't being addressed. This forum seems to be the only thing active in AG's murder investigation :stormingmad: MOO

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

I know what you mean MsSherlock. There are days when I feel like giving up. But then I think of Audrey (who I didn't even know) and something pulls me back here to try to find justice for her. Other than us here it does seem as though no one is fighting for her.

:justice:

 

[MsSherlock]

I know what you mean MsSherlock. There are days when I feel like giving up. But then I think of Audrey (who I didn't even know) and something pulls me back here to try to find justice for her. Other than us here it does seem as though no one is fighting for her.

:justice:

No Stone-maybe someone from HPS is following this thread and realizing that this case doesn't need to go "cold"? IMHO, there are stones LE has not turned over (no pun intended!) Perhaps if they dropped the notion of AG being a recluse or hermit and stopped charging up the polygraph for the one single "young male" that they seem to have tunnel vision on, they could expand their vision and solve this case. JMHO, when cases go cold, what harm does it do to release a bit more info? MOO

 

[dotr]

Not that I care to go into the horror of "trophy taking", but this recent news has me wondering.

http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2..._severed_in_attack_at_yongedundas_square.html

 

[dotr]

The community Audrey belonged to must be a very confident lot to remain in the same homes after her gruesome murder.
Not the case in other parts of Canada where murder seems to stigmatize a property, at least for awhile.

Link includes an odd map of houses and info about the murders committed in those houses...

http://www.edmontonsun.com/2013/08/24/gruesome-acts-hidden-behind-closed-doors-in-edmonton

" Gruesome acts hidden behind closed doors in Edmonton
'Everyone that lives in the area knows what house it is because it was on the news': "



"Police called the killing of John Stanley Kwiatkowski &#8220;senseless,&#8221; noting he was the victim of a break and enter. It&#8217;s not known why his 3408 103 Ave. home was targeted.

Neighbours couldn&#8217;t look at the property the same way. Their peaceful neighbourhood had now been rocked by a vicious crime"

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

^^^^^ And remember Paul Bernardo's house was torn down. I can't believe people are living on Audrey's (former) property.

:twocents:

 

[Sillybilly]

And about "young and close" I'm taking that to be true in all three cases (AG, SV and SL).

For me, young = male between the ages of 15 - 29 and close = a male who is fully acquainted with the areas of the crimes, knows his way to and from the crimes, had opportunity to commit the crimes, left the crime scenes to an area reasonably 'close' (ie. not Vancouver/Halifax/Montreal).

He's still quite young and he's still right here within our reach (unless he's incarcerated somewhere). Even if he's incarcerated, he's still "close" in that he's a Canadian citizen from Southern Ontario.

:twocents:

Stone, the profiler Safarik who advised "young and close" was addressing crimes against the elderly, so i'm not convinced that term would necessarily apply in the cases of SL and SV:

from:
http://www.thespec.com/news-story/2215939-who-is-audrey-gleave/

A behavioural profile of the killer in the Audrey Gleave case likely would have suggested the perpetrator was a younger male, in his 20s or early 30s, and someone who had known Audrey, or known of her, which was not the case with David Scott.

&#8220;(The killer) has knowledge that an elderly female lives there by herself,&#8221; said Mark Safarik, a retired FBI profiler with expertise in violent crime against the elderly.

Safarik said those who kill the elderly &#8220;are not opportunistic offenders. They are not breaking into a place and stumbling upon the victim. He knows she&#8217;s there, know she&#8217;s by herself, and he goes there with intent to sexually assault and murder her. This is different than prior research suggesting women were opportunistic victims of non-violent offenders who become violent at the scene.&#8221;

These are angry young men with pent-up rage toward women and likely live with a female authority figure, he said. They are socially incompetent men who perceive little control in their lives, are typically undereducated, have substance abuse problems and are unemployed or in a menial job.

&#8220;For these guys, there is not a lot of planning, and they don&#8217;t stay at the scene long. They leave evidence, don&#8217;t clean up. They don&#8217;t think that far ahead.&#8221;

They use far more violence than necessary to kill. Overkill is indicative of their anger. This had been the case on Indian Trail.

IMO however, profiling is always evolving based on studying new cases as they crop up. I still feel JV could be a good candidate based on his family ties to Audrey and his geographic location in the areas of SL and SV.