Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #15

[deugirtni]

Mary Mentioned BS' IOU Payable to HS' Mother. Why?
@dotr sbm bbm
@JDG sbm bbm Thanks for your post. First, I'm not sure who ^ "she" in first ^ post refers to - Mary or Mary's Mother?
If Mary stated that she herself had tried to collect it--- when, how? Mary’s phone calls, in-person convo's w BS? What is the evd/documentation of her attempts? If Mary tried to collect thru legal proceeding, was it dismissed by court, or ???

If loan had not been repaid, forgiven, etc, when Mother died, presumably still holding the IOU/note, then in probate ct, or other ct proceeding, was IOU/note listed in doc's filed w ct, to collect w other debts owed her/her estate (or earlier w HS' Father's estate)?
If so, then was IOU/note treated as an advance to HS & deducted from HS's share of Mother's/parents' estate, at least if HS also signed as borrower?

Not clear to me that Mary told journo KD, that she thought she (Mary) was entitled to collect. Maybe Mary mentioned the IOU/note to journo KD to convey unfavorable impression about BS, not to say she (Mary) thought that she herself tried to collect at any point. Maybe she just wanted to criticize BS after his death? Seems doing so while he was living might have been harmful to her financial health.

Lastly, did journo KD pose these questions to Mary? If so, did she evade, refuse to answer?
Not concluding anything, just considering possibilities and unknowns. my2ct.

It seems that H's father died in 1989 and mother died in 2005. It seems that perhaps MS had found the IOU amongst her mother's papers sometime after her death (possibly after H's death as well??), and from the sounds of it, has tried to collect on it? Although, how would she know it hadn't long ago been paid back?? In KD's ebook:

The Shermans also took care of their own parents. Honey's mother and father, for example, had a nice condo in Florida courtesy of the Shermans. (ebook pg 177)

I wonder if that might count as reimbursement, even if not paid back in cash, which I doubt. imo.

 

[deugirtni]

Possibly this was when homicide arrived at the scene? 1 hr after fire/ambulance and police arrived?

According to this article, police arrived only minutes later than Fire:

Toronto Fire Department arrived first after the 11:44 a.m. call. A firefighter noted “they were blue in colour with obvious signs of rigour mortis.” Police arrived a little later, at 11:54 a.m.

‘Someone has killed my clients’: Newly released documents detail the day Barry and Honey Sherman were found dead, and what police did after - Path of Ex

 

[al66pine]

BS' IOU?

It seems that H's father died in 1989 and mother died in 2005. It seems that perhaps MS had found the IOU amongst her mother's papers sometime after her death (possibly after H's death as well??), and from the sounds of it, has tried to collect on it? Although, how would she know it hadn't long ago been paid back?? ...

@deugirtni sbm Yes, good question: what & when did Mary know about IOU/note? Too vague for me to draw conclusions. First, who made the loan to BS? Was it HS' Father, HS' Mother, or Fa & Mo jointly?
If HS' Father loaned $ and Mary was aware of the loan, and it had not been repaid or forgiven, seems on Fa's death, she would could have told executor/administrator of Fa's probate estate (or Canadian equivalent) that there was an unpaid loan, an asset of Fa's estate, so executor could collect (or explore loan terms, see if executor could call the loan, etc.).
Maybe executor was aware of BS' IOU/note, and maybe BS provided documentation of full repayment or that the Fa had forgiven the loan. Possible.

Was Mary a beneficiary of Fa's probate estate? Even if she was not, imo likely, the loan repayment to Fa's estate would have increased the probate distribution to MS & HS' Mother. Then eventually if Mo did not deplete $ from Fa's estate, then likely imo that both dau's would receive $ under Mo's will or trust. IOW, seems imo Mary had reason to bring this loan to attn of exec'r. If she was aware of loan, did she?

And similar opportunity for Mary to raise the issue when Mother's estate was probated. Did she bring to attn of executor?

Or maybe someone in Mary's position receiving financial benefits - participating in real estate deals w BS/SherFam businesses - was willing to ignore the loan, because in her opinion, those benefits outweighed $ she may have received by BS' loan repayment to Fa's or Mo's estate.

Just considering possibilities, not drawing conclusions. My2ct.

 

[ldlager]

According to this article, police arrived only minutes later than Fire:

Toronto Fire Department arrived first after the 11:44 a.m. call. A firefighter noted “they were blue in colour with obvious signs of rigour mortis.” Police arrived a little later, at 11:54 a.m.

‘Someone has killed my clients’: Newly released documents detail the day Barry and Honey Sherman were found dead, and what police did after - Path of Ex[/QUOTE


Death and Kinetics

I know this has come up before, but 36 hours after death would seem to be at the longer end of time for rigour mortis to still be present. There are many articles on the topic, I have posted one above, apologies if this is a bit graphic.

this chart is interesting:

• If the body feels warm and no rigor is present, death occurred under 3 hours before.
• If the body feels warm and stiff, death occurred 3-8 hours earlier.
• If the body feels cold and stiff, death occurred 8-36 hours earlier.
• If the body is cold and not stiff, death occurred more than 36 hours earlier.

So if the were found in rigour mortis this article would suggest 36 hours would be at the high side of time since death. I know it isn’t an exact thing to measure, and that humidity etc can play a part. But based solely on my admittedly amateur sleuthing, it would appear possible that time of death could have been later than we have been discussing. Sorry to restart an old discussion but the quote from the fire dept reminded me.

 

[ldlager]

BS' IOU?
@deugirtni sbm Yes, good question: what & when did Mary know about IOU/note? Too vague for me to draw conclusions. First, who made the loan to BS? Was it HS' Father, HS' Mother, or Fa & Mo jointly?
If HS' Father loaned $ and Mary was aware of the loan, and it had not been repaid or forgiven, seems on Fa's death, she would could have told executor/administrator of Fa's probate estate (or Canadian equivalent) that there was an unpaid loan, an asset of Fa's estate, so executor could collect (or explore loan terms, see if executor could call the loan, etc.).
Maybe executor was aware of BS' IOU/note, and maybe BS provided documentation of full repayment or that the Fa had forgiven the loan. Possible.

Was Mary a beneficiary of Fa's probate estate? Even if she was not, imo likely, the loan repayment to Fa's estate would have increased the probate distribution to MS & HS' Mother. Then eventually if Mo did not deplete $ from Fa's estate, then likely imo that both dau's would receive $ under Mo's will or trust. IOW, seems imo Mary had reason to bring this loan to attn of exec'r. If she was aware of loan, did she?

And similar opportunity for Mary to raise the issue when Mother's estate was probated. Did she bring to attn of executor?

Or maybe someone in Mary's position receiving financial benefits - participating in real estate deals w BS/SherFam businesses - was willing to ignore the loan, because in her opinion, those benefits outweighed $ she may have received by BS' loan repayment to Fa's or Mo's estate.

Just considering possibilities, not drawing conclusions. My2ct.

I am sure that the loan (if it even really even exists) has been repaid many many many times over due to the financial generosity of the Sherman’s to their family.
I’m sure MS is not looking to collect any such loan- after all, repayment could work both ways, and the Sherman children don’t seem to be on solid friendly terms with their aunt at present. For whatever reasons...

 

[Lexiintoronto]

It seems that H's father died in 1989 and mother died in 2005. It seems that perhaps MS had found the IOU amongst her mother's papers sometime after her death (possibly after H's death as well??), and from the sounds of it, has tried to collect on it? Although, how would she know it hadn't long ago been paid back?? In KD's ebook:

The Shermans also took care of their own parents. Honey's mother and father, for example, had a nice condo in Florida courtesy of the Shermans. (ebook pg 177)

I wonder if that might count as reimbursement, even if not paid back in cash, which I doubt. imo.

The IOU seems to be a new discovery (b/u/i by me):

“Mary has disputed characterizations of her as someone who has lived off her late sister and her husband. She said her parents provided seed money for Barry in the early days and over the years she has worked hard on real-estate projects for the Shermans, earning everything that was paid to her. Recently, in her basement, she discovered an IOU Barry wrote to her mother in the 1970s for monies advanced when he was starting out in business. It is an IOU she has not been able to collect on.”
Many lined up at the ‘Bank of Barry’ Sherman: Inside the $10 billion succession battle[/QUOTE]

 

[deugirtni]

Death and Kinetics

I know this has come up before, but 36 hours after death would seem to be at the longer end of time for rigour mortis to still be present. There are many articles on the topic, I have posted one above, apologies if this is a bit graphic.

this chart is interesting:

• If the body feels warm and no rigor is present, death occurred under 3 hours before.
• If the body feels warm and stiff, death occurred 3-8 hours earlier.
• If the body feels cold and stiff, death occurred 8-36 hours earlier.
• If the body is cold and not stiff, death occurred more than 36 hours earlier.

So if the were found in rigour mortis this article would suggest 36 hours would be at the high side of time since death. I know it isn’t an exact thing to measure, and that humidity etc can play a part. But based solely on my admittedly amateur sleuthing, it would appear possible that time of death could have been later than we have been discussing. Sorry to restart an old discussion but the quote from the fire dept reminded me.

Rigor mortis generally peaks at 12 hours, and dissipates after 48 hours.
Rigor mortis - Wikipedia

TOD seems to be best-guesswork, based on a number of factors, including the opinion of one of the firefighters present at the scene. For whatever police have uncovered during their investigation, they seem to have surmised the timing was sometime between 9pm and midnight. It has been said that B would've arrived home around 9pm, and H around 8:30pm (after shopping for Hanukkah gifts at the mall on her way home). It would be interesting to know the temp and humidity of the pool room, considering it has been said the pool was never used and generally was green (according to Kaelen's fiance and of course, other than presumably when the house went on the market). To me, the '36 hours' were the words of media, changed from police saying 'between 9pm and midnight', just to show how rather quickly (or not quickly) the bodies had been discovered after death. Personally, I don't take the '36 hours' literally. Even a seasoned pathologist may not be able to narrow the TOD down exactly, when bodies were found a day and a half later, considering the variances that would need to be taken into account. imo.

 

[ldlager]

The IOU seems to be a new discovery (b/u/i by me):

“Mary has disputed characterizations of her as someone who has lived off her late sister and her husband. She said her parents provided seed money for Barry in the early days and over the years she has worked hard on real-estate projects for the Shermans, earning everything that was paid to her. Recently, in her basement, she discovered an IOU Barry wrote to her mother in the 1970s for monies advanced when he was starting out in business. It is an IOU she has not been able to collect on.”
Many lined up at the ‘Bank of Barry’ Sherman: Inside the $10 billion succession battle

[/QUOTE]

she lives in a multi million dollar mansion in forest hill. She has a vacation property in Florida. We know from HS history that her parents were not wealthy. Her husbands jewellery company went bankrupt, despite millions of dollars of funding from BS. The facts do not support her disputing the characterizations that have been made.

 

[deugirtni]

The IOU seems to be a new discovery (b/u/i by me):

“Mary has disputed characterizations of her as someone who has lived off her late sister and her husband. She said her parents provided seed money for Barry in the early days and over the years she has worked hard on real-estate projects for the Shermans, earning everything that was paid to her. Recently, in her basement, she discovered an IOU Barry wrote to her mother in the 1970s for monies advanced when he was starting out in business. It is an IOU she has not been able to collect on.”
Many lined up at the ‘Bank of Barry’ Sherman: Inside the $10 billion succession battle

Yes agreed, recent discovery. In KD's book, it indicates BS and Ulster had obtained loans from B's mother and Ulster's family. Perhaps that is inaccurate and he meant H's mother? B's mother died in October 1971 according to records. I'm not sure when Sherman and Ulster required the loans. In any case, it seems H's 'parents' received a Florida condo, at the very least.

Royal Trust agreed to sell. Sherman and Ulster's offer of $450,000 was $100,000 higher than the only other offer. They would assume responsibility for $200,000 in company debt, and the actual payout to Royal Trust would be $250,000 - paid for with a $100,000 loan from Sherman's mother and a $150,000 loan from Ulster's father. (ebook pg 34)

 

[al66pine]

I am sure that the loan (if it even really even exists) has been repaid many many many times over due to the financial generosity of the Sherman’s to their family.
I’m sure MS is not looking to collect any such loan- after all, repayment could work both ways, and the Sherman children don’t seem to be on solid friendly terms with their aunt at present. For whatever reasons...

@ldlager re
bbm 1. Yes agreeing, likely it was 'repaid' many times over.

bbm2. Phrasing of article* suggests that she tried: "It is an IOU she has not been able to collect on." bbm ubm

bbm3. Sorry to be dense about "repayment could work both ways."
Mary's stmts about IOU in article likely prompted (further?) ill feelings btwn Mary and nephew & nieces, if that's what you're saying, so yes, perhaps less inclined to be generous to her.
my2ct.
___________________________________
* Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #15" Many lined up at the ‘Bank of Barry’ Sherman: Inside the $10 billion succession battle

 

[al66pine]

Recent Basement Discovery?

The IOU seems to be a new discovery (b/u/i by me):
“Mary has disputed characterizations of her as someone who has lived off her late sister and her husband. She said her parents provided seed money for Barry in the early days and over the years she has worked hard on real-estate projects for the Shermans, earning everything that was paid to her. Recently, in her basement, she discovered an IOU Barry wrote to her mother in the 1970s for monies advanced when he was starting out in business. It is an IOU she has not been able to collect on.” Many lined up at the ‘Bank of Barry’ Sherman: Inside the $10 billion succession battle

@Lexiintoronto Good point about "recently." Does that mean after the deaths of BS & HS?
Is it possible she was aware of the loan itself, perhaps even from the day it was made?
But may have not known of existence of loan document?
Or knew loan was documented, but thought doc had been destroyed?
Lots of possibilities; I'm not concluding anything, my2ct.

ETA: Would a person like BS borrow $ for a start-up, sign loan documents, & not retain documentation of repayment?
The man of many lawsuits.

 

[deugirtni]

It sounds (to me) like it was more of an 'iou' written perhaps on a piece of paper. For all we know, maybe it was just papers found in H's paperwork, and H may have had paperwork from both B's mom and her own mom. Who knows how many details the 'iou' stated, ie names, dates, amounts. In any case, it sure doesn't sound like much of an 'official loan', and who knows, it could've been for a thousand bucks.

 

[Kerry Winter]

As well as unknown information regarding the Shermans own home security. IIRC the housekeeper noting the home security system was shut off that Friday morning was mentioned in the ITO, as opposed to contradictory media sources stating the Shermans had no home security system other than an old, non-working camera in the pool room.

ETA -
I got the feeling TPS intentionally allowed that small portion of the housekeepers statement mentioning the home security to be released un-redacted for a reason. Up until then it was literally a universal fact the Sherman home had none....if my memory is correct, the only intriguing exception was KWs claim here on WS that Barry was caught on his security camera, but with his face covered, murdering his wife because he forgot to shut it off.

Not correct; video of Barry covering his face with his jacket while moving the cctv camera away from the pool.

 

[dotr]

Not correct; video of Barry covering his face with his jacket while moving the cctv camera away from the pool.

Is there anyone in the Sherman circle who looks similar to BS and could pose as him, or possibly force BS to approach the camera whilst covering his face?
speculation, imo.

 

[ldlager]

@ldlager re
bbm 1. Yes agreeing, likely it was 'repaid' many times over.

bbm2. Phrasing of article* suggests that she tried: "It is an IOU she has not been able to collect on." bbm ubm

bbm3. Sorry to be dense about "repayment could work both ways."
Mary's stmts about IOU in article likely prompted (further?) ill feelings btwn Mary and nephew & nieces, if that's what you're saying, so yes, perhaps less inclined to be generous to her.
my2ct.
___________________________________
* Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #15" Many lined up at the ‘Bank of Barry’ Sherman: Inside the $10 billion succession battle

By repayment could work both ways- I meant possibly the estate or the beneficiaries could ask for repayment of all amounts loaned/advancedto MS and her family over the course of 30+ years.

 

[MistyWaters]

By repayment could work both ways- I meant possibly the estate or the beneficiaries could ask for repayment of all amounts loaned/advancedto MS and her family over the course of 30+ years.

According to SCC documents, nothing of the Estate was contested.

In my opinion the IOU story just plants more negativity toward Barry for neglecting to repay his dear old MIL back, what a scoundrel (maybe she kept the IOU as a keepsake, if it even existed?) and against the perpetual money-hungry MS for mentioning it (will she take up where the cousins lawsuit left off?).

I’m quite amazed MS would even speak to KD after he wrote his sources claimed the Sherman deaths caused such financial hardship that her husband was forced to drive for Uber in Florida and she was thinking of becoming a tour guide. Do we all believe everything?

 

[Satchie]

Certainly their daughter Alex and her husband Brad knew the Sherman’s would be at home that night, as they had rescheduled their dinner to later in the week. Likely 2 of many people that knew the Sherman’s schedule.

IDK, a couple in their 70's, a Wednesday night, what's the chance they'd have people over after 8 pm? But that Honey would come home first...that seems to me the unpredictable part. Even Honey couldn't have known that...

I’m quite amazed MS would even speak to KD after he wrote his sources claimed the Sherman deaths caused such financial hardship that her husband was forced to drive for Uber in Florida and she was thinking of becoming a tour guide. Do we all believe everything?

Yes, what better way to settle old scores (social offences rather than financial ones) than to talk to a journalist who guarantees your anonymity? I mean, look at the tiny amount of actual fact that comes out of social media, versus the vast amount distortions and lies.

 

[MistyWaters]

Yes, what better way to settle old scores (social offences rather than financial ones) than to talk to a journalist who guarantees your anonymity? I mean, look at the tiny amount of actual fact that comes out of social media, versus the vast amount distortions and lies.

That’s right, ever since the age of social media I think everyone has become a little sceptical about believing everything they read. Whoever is feeding KD information about MS is definitely not a good friend, that’s for sure.

Watching the video of MS’s eulogy at memorial, it seemed to me MS sincerely spoke about the close bond between her and Honey. So if any concerns were nagging at Honey while she was alive, her sister seemed the one person she might’ve confided with.

No homicide charges have been laid yet, so no trial, no testimony has occurred. Meanwhile MS has been portrayed by unnamed sources in an extremely negative light. Has anyone considered there might be other ulterior motives, other than idle entertainment, in leading the public to conclude MS is a money-hungry, malicious, outcast of the family? What if she were to become a key prosecution witness?

KD certainly can’t know if someone might be intent on damaging her credibility. He can’t even know if the stories he publishes are true. He just drops unexplained tidbits, knowing people often like to speculate. But if there’s an agenda behind the public dissecting of MSs character under the guise of “news”, I’d wonder if it pertains to the fear of knowledge she might’ve shared with investigators. JMO

 

[dotr]

New article concerning another unsolved double murder of a high profile older Jewish couple from Toronto whose bodies were found asphyxiated in their Florida condo.
Notable because the perps are all female (as per DNA), any chance the perps in the Sherman case are female as opposed to male?
speculation, imo. fwiw..

FL - FL - David 'Donny' Pichosky, 71, & Rochelle Wise, 66, Hallandale Beach, 10 Jan 2013

 

[ldlager]

That’s right, ever since the age of social media I think everyone has become a little sceptical about believing everything they read. Whoever is feeding KD information about MS is definitely not a good friend, that’s for sure.

Watching the video of MS’s eulogy at memorial, it seemed to me MS sincerely spoke about the close bond between her and Honey. So if any concerns were nagging at Honey while she was alive, her sister seemed the one person she might’ve confided with.

No homicide charges have been laid yet, so no trial, no testimony has occurred. Meanwhile MS has been portrayed by unnamed sources in an extremely negative light. Has anyone considered there might be other ulterior motives, other than idle entertainment, in leading the public to conclude MS is a money-hungry, malicious, outcast of the family? What if she were to become a key prosecution witness?

KD certainly can’t know if someone might be intent on damaging her credibility. He can’t even know if the stories he publishes are true. He just drops unexplained tidbits, knowing people often like to speculate. But if there’s an agenda behind the public dissecting of MSs character under the guise of “news”, I’d wonder if it pertains to the fear of knowledge she might’ve shared with investigators. JMO

To me, irrespective of what KD writes about Ms, the most interesting bit of actual indication of MS character is the way her nieces and nephews have actually treated her since the early days after the murders. Unless one also chooses to not believe what has been reported regarding the distancing and alienation between MS and the Sherman kids, I would think that all of the 4 Sherman children’s actual treatment of their aunt is a pretty good real reflection of how they view her character and behaviour towards them and their deceased parents, and what her true motivations may be. Not one of them has stepped forward to dispute these stories, or to defend her. Unless one believes there is another much more sinister reason why all 4 kids seem to be aligned on this matter? ( I highly doubt there is a more sinister reason) .MOO