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Yes the TPS have pinned down the time of death very closely.
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CANADA Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #17
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Thanks for that info. I’m still confused though because wouldn’t the timestamp be on the security video of the night walker? I’ll have to rewatch the tape I thought that officer used the 9 to 12 timeframe maybe he didn’t. I guess my brain was making me think he left there shortly after midnight. I wish the police would put out every bit of information that they have.
BaffleMe
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Subway station????
Well, what if they were killed, then suspect is staging the bodies, so he would still be there.
Window21
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I don't think a coroner can pinpoint an exact time of death when the bodies were found almost 48 hrs later....therefore we have the time 9pm - midnight. They won't say they were killed at 10:04pm for example because there is no way to pinpoint an exact time.
Also, the video didn't have a timestamp on it, at least not the one I watched, the police probably kept that info to themselves.
For all we know the NW could have been captured on video at 9:30 pm or 2am...we don't know and I don't think it really matters at this point. They called him a suspect so they are thinking this is the murderer until they prove otherwise.
fwiw.. rbbm.
New method for more accurate determination of time of death at crime scenes
2020
''In investigations concerning people found dead at a crime scene, detectives want to establish the time of death with the highest possible level of accuracy. The more accurate the time given, the better it can be compared against suspects’ alibis – so a small margin of error around the time of death can lead to a reduction in the number of potential suspects. Using the method now published in Science Advances, a time of death can be calculated accurately to within an average of 45 minutes for people who have been dead between five and fifty hours.''
''in the method reported in Science Advances, a crime scene detective non-invasively measures the temperature in one to four places, using a thermal camera or by applying sensors to the body. The data then go into a model that can be much more precisely tailored to the situation found at the crime scene. For example, information can be incorporated regarding clothing, whether the body is found (partly) in water, on what surface it has been found, and so on.''
A Surprising Time-of-Death Tool
''One of the most important tasks for a forensic scientist investigating a death is to determine when the person died. Up to 48 hours postmortem, those investigators can use medical methods such as the stiffness or temperature of the body. Longer than that, and they have to turn to the beetles and flies that take up residence in cadavers, using their age and natural succession to estimate the time of death.''
Decomposition - Forensic Evidence
''Temperature
The temperature of a body can be used to estimate time of death during the first 24 hours. Core temperature falls gradually with time since death, and depends on body mass, fat distribution and ambient temperature. If the body is discovered before the body temperature has come into equilibrium with the ambient temperature, forensic scientists can estimate the time of death by measuring core temperature of the body.
Rigor mortis
The presence of rigor mortis also assists forensic scientists in determining the time of death. The body muscles will normally be in a relaxed state for the first three hours after death, stiffening between 3 hours and 36 hours, and then becoming relaxed again. However, there is considerable uncertainty in estimates derived from rigor mortis, because the time of onset is highly dependent on the amount of work the muscles had done immediately before death.
''Insects
The presence of insects in a corpse is a critical clue towards estimating the time of death for bodies dead for longer periods of time. Because flies rapidly discover a body and their development times are predictable under particular environmental conditions, the time of death can be calculated by counting back the days from the state of development of insects living on the corpse.
For example, if a body was found in an air-conditioned building (21°C) with second instar larvae (stage of development between moulting) of Lucilia sericata feeding on the corpse, a forensic entomologist could calculate that those larvae had moulted from their first instar sometime in the last 12 hours. Because the eggs take 18 hours to hatch and the first instar takes 20 hours to develop, the most recent time the eggs could have been laid was 38 hours earlier, if the larvae had just moulted. If they were old larvae, about to moult into their third instar, the most recent time of death would be 50 hours prior to discovery of the body.''
New method for more accurate determination of time of death at crime scenes
2020
''In investigations concerning people found dead at a crime scene, detectives want to establish the time of death with the highest possible level of accuracy. The more accurate the time given, the better it can be compared against suspects’ alibis – so a small margin of error around the time of death can lead to a reduction in the number of potential suspects. Using the method now published in Science Advances, a time of death can be calculated accurately to within an average of 45 minutes for people who have been dead between five and fifty hours.''
''in the method reported in Science Advances, a crime scene detective non-invasively measures the temperature in one to four places, using a thermal camera or by applying sensors to the body. The data then go into a model that can be much more precisely tailored to the situation found at the crime scene. For example, information can be incorporated regarding clothing, whether the body is found (partly) in water, on what surface it has been found, and so on.''
A Surprising Time-of-Death Tool
''One of the most important tasks for a forensic scientist investigating a death is to determine when the person died. Up to 48 hours postmortem, those investigators can use medical methods such as the stiffness or temperature of the body. Longer than that, and they have to turn to the beetles and flies that take up residence in cadavers, using their age and natural succession to estimate the time of death.''
Decomposition - Forensic Evidence
''Temperature
The temperature of a body can be used to estimate time of death during the first 24 hours. Core temperature falls gradually with time since death, and depends on body mass, fat distribution and ambient temperature. If the body is discovered before the body temperature has come into equilibrium with the ambient temperature, forensic scientists can estimate the time of death by measuring core temperature of the body.
Rigor mortis
The presence of rigor mortis also assists forensic scientists in determining the time of death. The body muscles will normally be in a relaxed state for the first three hours after death, stiffening between 3 hours and 36 hours, and then becoming relaxed again. However, there is considerable uncertainty in estimates derived from rigor mortis, because the time of onset is highly dependent on the amount of work the muscles had done immediately before death.
''Insects
The presence of insects in a corpse is a critical clue towards estimating the time of death for bodies dead for longer periods of time. Because flies rapidly discover a body and their development times are predictable under particular environmental conditions, the time of death can be calculated by counting back the days from the state of development of insects living on the corpse.
For example, if a body was found in an air-conditioned building (21°C) with second instar larvae (stage of development between moulting) of Lucilia sericata feeding on the corpse, a forensic entomologist could calculate that those larvae had moulted from their first instar sometime in the last 12 hours. Because the eggs take 18 hours to hatch and the first instar takes 20 hours to develop, the most recent time the eggs could have been laid was 38 hours earlier, if the larvae had just moulted. If they were old larvae, about to moult into their third instar, the most recent time of death would be 50 hours prior to discovery of the body.''
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LE knows the times in which the 'suspect/night walker' is seen in each of the instances of video coverage they have with him in it, but they are not sharing that information with the public. Here is one of the reporter's questions from the recent press conference that Brendan Price did:
JP(CBC): I’m JP with CBC French. Detective Sergeant can you please tell me what time is it on the tape right now, because from here, on my screen it seems like it's daylight but I guess it's night time, no?
DSBP: That's correct. I'm not going to say exactly the time of this clip but I will say it is in the evening or night hours of December 13th 2017, and you're correct, it's sort of quite bright but that's partly to do with the type of camera that was recording.
BaffleMe
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Beetles and flies, oh my. I never thought of that. Great info....
I think we can be sure that the TPS have not told the public everything they know about the walker, such as if the walker went inside any other homes in the area.
HUNTER: In Toronto, the murders kept coming in 2021 | Toronto Sun
rbbm.
Dec 28, 2021 Brad Hunter
“Toronto is still safer than most other major Canadian cities,” the veteran detective said, adding that homicide is a “reactive unit.”
''And despite the spike, Idsinga’s team still has a stellar 75% close rate — unheard of in almost any North American city. But like those bergs, Toronto is saddled with many of the same problems.
“Gun violence breeds more gun violence and that makes solving homicides tougher,” Idsinga said, adding it’s important to publicize his team’s success''.
“We have a good clearance rate. When we arrest people for homicide I can’t tell you the number of times they were reading about the crime on an iPad or newspaper.”
''Solving homicides is time-consuming and expensive, the longtime detective said.
See the investigations into serial killer Bruce MacArthur and the ongoing probe into the double murder of billionaire pharma king Barry Sherman and his wife Honey.''
Barry and Honey Sherman: Duelling investigations, high drama and still no answers - Macleans.ca
2018
..Soon after, TPS chief Mark Sanders countered with his own press conference which took a bizarre turn: “I have to be cognizant that the suspect or suspects are watching right now,” Sanders said. “I know that for a fact.” How he knew that for “a fact” remains unclear. (TPS did not respond to Maclean’s request for clarification at the time.)''
Oct 26, 2018
rbbm.
Dec 28, 2021 Brad Hunter
“Toronto is still safer than most other major Canadian cities,” the veteran detective said, adding that homicide is a “reactive unit.”
''And despite the spike, Idsinga’s team still has a stellar 75% close rate — unheard of in almost any North American city. But like those bergs, Toronto is saddled with many of the same problems.
“Gun violence breeds more gun violence and that makes solving homicides tougher,” Idsinga said, adding it’s important to publicize his team’s success''.
“We have a good clearance rate. When we arrest people for homicide I can’t tell you the number of times they were reading about the crime on an iPad or newspaper.”
''Solving homicides is time-consuming and expensive, the longtime detective said.
See the investigations into serial killer Bruce MacArthur and the ongoing probe into the double murder of billionaire pharma king Barry Sherman and his wife Honey.''
Barry and Honey Sherman: Duelling investigations, high drama and still no answers - Macleans.ca
2018
..Soon after, TPS chief Mark Sanders countered with his own press conference which took a bizarre turn: “I have to be cognizant that the suspect or suspects are watching right now,” Sanders said. “I know that for a fact.” How he knew that for “a fact” remains unclear. (TPS did not respond to Maclean’s request for clarification at the time.)''
Oct 26, 2018
They may not know if they went in another house. It all depends what cameras were filming that night, and where. And what cameras a homeowner could have disabled at their house if the walker was visiting their house for perhaps a secret rendezvous. Speculation, but it is possible.
I believe it is likely that Saunders had absolutely zero knowledge that those responsible for the deaths were watching….
Bobbi Pearl
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Would those other "perps" be on the same camera or neighborhood cameras that caught this suspect entering and leaving the area of the Sherman property?
Did LE collect more video evidence from the neighborhood for Thursday? I think about the Thursday visitor who may have entered & exited the residence a few times in a 45 min timeframe (one report stated they went to door and did not enter, another state they entered the home and were inside for up to 15 mins straight, then came out to car, then went back in for a total of 3 visits)
If Shermans had no appointments scheduled for this Thursday how often do strangers come to your door, knock, and if no answer try the door and enter, especially with cars out front? I thought a contractor but reports are they had no plans on this Thurs and no one missed them.
Reports are out that LE knew of this individual and had spoken with them. But they never revealed the purpose of the visit and share why you would go to the entry area and return to your car that was on the road not the driveway multiple times over 45 minutes. (why you would not use driveway - contractor it is against some company rules, your car leaks oil or fluids, what other reasons?)
Did LE check cell tower communications for the time the car was in the area? Were they calling HS cell that was on the floor in the general area of the front door.
Again no alarm bells were raised by this person, if they did go in, would they have seen a cell phone on floor?
A staff member stated on Friday the alarm was not on, it was off, I think she meant that the doors did not chime when they entered the home. You need a code to "disarm" the alarm system, do you need that for the window and door chimes? Or is it just a switch on the keypad you use for that? I assume this was an older system.
This and the 911 call, will we ever know if it was HS that dialed 911 from her phone? Thoughts that it was LE knocking on the door checking up on a 911 call on that Thursday have crossed my mind.
In the case of the Shermans, I believe somebody had to make a decision to have them murdered. I will call this person the Perpetrator.
In solving murders, it is not necessary to know the motive for the killing, but it can be useful. In this case, I think what is more salient is when and why the decision was made to kill the Shermans. Because from that decision, follows, recruiting a hit team, a method of paying a hit team, the hit team doing surveillance and so on.
Was there a event, that caused the perp, to say, "Okay that is it, the Shermans have to go"? Can we ascertain some specific action on the Sherman's part either individually or together, that would trigger the murder plan. It might have been a slight at a social event, or the result of a lawsuit, or rejection of an investment proposal. It might have been be the cumulation of several previous perceived indignities or disrespects. Literally the straw that broke the camel's back.
It had to be significant to the Perpetrator though. Since murder is very often based on a personal emotion it might, to us, appear an illogical choice to have them killed, but at the time, to the Perp it appeared as the only possible action.
If we can find something that the Shermans did to somebody, that was so egregious that the Perp wanted them dead, we might have a path to a solution.
Whatever this event or action was, initiated by the Shermans, I believe it likely occurred, no earlier that the Spring of 2017. It could have occurred in the summer or fall, but likely no later.
Think, specifically what did the Sherman's do or not do in this time period that would result in initiating a murder plan?
In solving murders, it is not necessary to know the motive for the killing, but it can be useful. In this case, I think what is more salient is when and why the decision was made to kill the Shermans. Because from that decision, follows, recruiting a hit team, a method of paying a hit team, the hit team doing surveillance and so on.
Was there a event, that caused the perp, to say, "Okay that is it, the Shermans have to go"? Can we ascertain some specific action on the Sherman's part either individually or together, that would trigger the murder plan. It might have been a slight at a social event, or the result of a lawsuit, or rejection of an investment proposal. It might have been be the cumulation of several previous perceived indignities or disrespects. Literally the straw that broke the camel's back.
It had to be significant to the Perpetrator though. Since murder is very often based on a personal emotion it might, to us, appear an illogical choice to have them killed, but at the time, to the Perp it appeared as the only possible action.
If we can find something that the Shermans did to somebody, that was so egregious that the Perp wanted them dead, we might have a path to a solution.
Whatever this event or action was, initiated by the Shermans, I believe it likely occurred, no earlier that the Spring of 2017. It could have occurred in the summer or fall, but likely no later.
Think, specifically what did the Sherman's do or not do in this time period that would result in initiating a murder plan?
BaffleMe
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I thought HS's cell phone was found in the bathroom ....
BaffleMe
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I agree, but my understanding is that there were multiple people who felt an injustice from the Shermans, or was it just B Sherman? Also, remember when LE sought information from other countries, maybe two?? Whatever happened with that?
Bobbi Pearl
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How could you get a warrant for that? That sounds like a fishing expedition and a lot of work; what would you do with thousands of names of people that arrived and maybe left Toronto on those dates? Who would they ask each airline, the governments of these airlines? What airports, Toronto, Hamilton, Ottawa, Montreal, Buffalo? All are near enough to be used.
Is it still private information once a flight has landed? The privacy is for security purposes, possibly flight manifests are public knowledge after flights are complete? Air disasters do share manifests so maybe they are available to anyone without a warrant.
It would be interesting for them to have started with people who entered Canada and then rather quickly turned around and left again, within a defined and rather narrow date range. imo. A previous poster suggested scrutinizing the entries via passports, rather than by plane tickets/specific airports. It's possible that arrivals from certain countries may be of more interest to LE than other countries.
Window21
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As far as business goes he was getting into the cannabis field.
"A year before they were killed, Barry signed on to a project with his scientists at Apotex and CannTrust, a cannabis firm. The project was going to be the “pharmaceuticalization of marijuana,” and they had the goal of helping patients suffering from a wide range of ailments including anxiety, depression, chronic pain, post-traumatic stress disorder, seizures, and other illnesses, according to investors.
“I think Barry decided Apotex better get in on the ground level,” says businessman Aubrey Dan, who worked with Barry. Aubrey was once a competitor of Barry’s when they were working on generic drugs. “Barry was a true entrepreneur. He has always been a risk taker.”
The approval from Health Canada was estimated to be in two years’ time yet, although once approved, the pills from Apotex was expected to be a major disrupter in the billion-dollar pharmaceutical business. It would have been a safe alternative to the fatal, addictive opioids – as well as other harmful prescription drugs."
FYI: I bolded that part in the article. Another poster has commented on this cannabis project a few pages back, and there may be something to it.
Who Killed The Pharma Tycoon Who Was Developing A Cannabis Pill?
Bobbi Pearl
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Curious why would HS still have her winter coat on if she were home alone before Barry got home an hour or so later? Once he accidentally killed her did he then put her winter clothes back on? This is one aspect of an M/S situation that is off in my view- why do they need to be clothed in this manner and in then display this position?
Regardless of whether it is double murder or murder-suicide the crime scene is staged, but what is it staged to tell?
Violence or indication of a struggle was not hidden, evidence of the cell phone left on the floor - perps did not care about the phone at all - why not? Same for BS blackberry, it was left on the pool room floor (no reports if the phones were powered off or broken etc)
Evidence points to the fact that both were subdued shortly after entering the home (cell at HS entry point, papers, and gloves at BS entry point)
I often think the pool room was chosen to keep the bodies at a certain temp and to keep them from any outside view from a passerby. The smell of chlorine would also assist in covering any smells.
Leaving of the papers Barry had is such a misleading clue. If this case was due to the business of the 50 Old Colony home and property then for sale over 6 million - for a home that the Shermans sued and garnered more than 80% of the home initial 1.3 million value because it was poor building design and structure - to be put up for more than they spent is like a wtf moment for the construction companies that just gave back all the money spent to build it. The perps would not leave those papers on the floor if they were staging a M/S, nor leave her phone on the powder room floor - IMO.
Window21
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Now, I also find this interesting:
"Almost immediately after the Shermans’ death, Apotex CEO Jeremy Desai announced he would step down. A Teva lawsuit had accused Desai of accepting the Israeli drugmaker’s trade secrets from his girlfriend. Apotex vice chairman and former CEO Jack Kay replaced Desai and the company promoted global generics president Jeff Watson to president and chief operating officer.
Despite resigning, Desai denied the allegations against him and filed a countersuit in March 2018. Teva and Desai settled the lawsuits in April 2018, and Desai now serves as president and CEO of Mandara Pharma, a cannabis-based research company."
FYI: I am the one that bolded this article. But isn't it interesting Desai is now CEO of a Cannabis company?????
The hits keep coming: Apotex loses 31 drug approvals after FDA cites plants for 'inadequate' controls
"Almost immediately after the Shermans’ death, Apotex CEO Jeremy Desai announced he would step down. A Teva lawsuit had accused Desai of accepting the Israeli drugmaker’s trade secrets from his girlfriend. Apotex vice chairman and former CEO Jack Kay replaced Desai and the company promoted global generics president Jeff Watson to president and chief operating officer.
Despite resigning, Desai denied the allegations against him and filed a countersuit in March 2018. Teva and Desai settled the lawsuits in April 2018, and Desai now serves as president and CEO of Mandara Pharma, a cannabis-based research company."
FYI: I am the one that bolded this article. But isn't it interesting Desai is now CEO of a Cannabis company?????
The hits keep coming: Apotex loses 31 drug approvals after FDA cites plants for 'inadequate' controls
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