CANADA Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #18

[MistyWaters]

But the four heirs wouldn’t receive anything until her death. Worse, she was vocal about the children being given too much money.

If you just isolate a two-week period from November 28 to December 15th, Jonathon asked for and received three different payments from Barry that totaled over 6.5 million.

That’s right, the beneficiaries wouldn’t receive an inheritance until Honey passed. Meanwhile the four trustees Barry named in his will would have full financial control over his estate. We know the value of that estate was primarily the value of Apotex and as far as we know nothing has changed after the company ownership was passed on to the children after inheriting.

 

[MistyWaters]

Another thing, we can’t look at how wealthy people manage their estates as if everything is sitting in their bank account and when they loan somebody money, they just write a personal cheque or maybe draw from savings, as we might do. Instead we know Barry had a maze of private companies and even some trusts. It’s important to note that KD was only successful in having the probated will unsealed because it was filed through the Court. But we know absolutely nothing regarding his directives pertaining to ownership of his private company shares and who he might’ve passed those shares directly on to.

“The use of multiple Wills to avoid probate fees is an accepted estate planning strategy recognized by the Courts in Ontario and British Columbia.

Where the multiple Will approach is used, individuals typically put in place one Will that governs assets that can be dealt with without a grant of probate — usually private company shares and unsecured loans, and a second general Will that deals with all other assets owned by the individual. On his or her death, only the second Will is probated and probate fees are paid only on the value of the assets passing under it…”
Avoiding probate fees on private company shares

 

[juli99]

RBBM

fwiw, I believe that she had her own will and the original document she signed was in the home (maybe removed or destroyed by the killer.)

Wow, I had never thought of this. Still, if it was done with a lawyer, that lawyer should have a copy. I can't picture HS using a will kit? JMO

 

[branmuffin]

(Warning, graphic) Can someone explain to me how the belts were used? I originally pictured a big loose loop, but I think I understand now the loops were small and tight, with the end tied to the railing. Is that accurate?

The only way two belts could be affixed to the railing would be to use the buckle of one belt in the holes of the other to make one huge loop. It would require the killer to loop this larger belt over the railing. There are two ways to do it. First, using an infinity (figure 8) design looped over the top of the railing then placing the head of each deceased person in the loops. Being already dead the weight of each person would keep the bodies partially erect. The second way would be to loop one belt over the railing then buckle it into the other's holes. This way the belt can't be removed without unbuckling it. Then you'd have to pull it forward and make two individual loops and have the deceased person or perhaps an unconscious person help asphyxiate themselves by their own body weight.

The safety requirements for having railings around a pool like this may have changed over the years. When I look at the pictures of the pool area it looks like the railings are around 36 to 42 inches high, probably closer to 36 inches. (One of the most unappealing looking indoor pools I've ever seen, btw). They don't look like they would keep little kids safe since there are no metal uprights.

Apparently the belts were Barry's. How big would you say Barry's waist was? Maybe 38 or 40 inches? A belt for someone that size would be anywhere between 41 and 42 inches long. Here's a link to that info.

https://www.sizecharter.com/clothing-fit-and-measurement/belt-size-charts

If the railings are 36 inches high that means a belt looped around the railing would have a drop of anywhere between 19 to 20 inches considering the end of the belt has no holes.

I'm 5 foot 2 inches tall (or short depending on your outlook ). When I sit on the floor the distance between the floor and my neck is about 21 inches so I could get my head in the loop but it wouldn't be forcing me to remain erect to stop the pressure. Someone taller than me definitely wouldn't be straining at the constraint. I have no idea how tall the Shermans were. I saw an image of them with a group that included Anderson Cooper. He's listed as 5 foot 10 inches and Barry looks about two inches shorter than him and Honey two inches shorter than Barry and she's wearing low heels. That would make her about 5 feet 4 inches tall.

I doubt they were alive when placed in the loops of the belts because they would be struggling mightily. It would probably also require more than one person involved in their death from a practical point. (I'm not saying just one person was involved, though). I'm pretty confident the dead weight of both kept the bodies upright but in no way contributed to asphyxiation.

If each belt was looped individually the same scenario would apply by looping the belt around the railing first then cinching it. And then placing the belts around the Sherman's necks to keep them upright and facing a blank wall.

I definitely think the whole scenario was a message of some kind; a personal one. If it was a professional hit, you know, get in, neutralize subjects and leave type of scenario, the Shermans would have been found anywhere else in the house, dropping where they died. But this just reeks of some personal vendetta and one that satisfied some deep seated hatred toward them for some hurt, real or imagined.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

Wow, I had never thought of this. Still, if it was done with a lawyer, that lawyer should have a copy. I can't picture HS using a will kit? JMO

If you destroy or the original cannot be found it can be considered to be revoked.

There may have been only one original signed will, the lawyer may only have a copy. (Guessing). It sounds like they proceeded as if Honey did not have a will, contrary to what the employee told the Star.

 

[branmuffin]

If it was a personal matter, it might’ve boiled down to whether or not Honey supported or perhaps even influenced Barry in a hypothetical ugly financial dispute. As much as we know now about the actual inheritance, Honey did not inherit the estate so there can’t have been a financial motive to murder her. Beneficiaries are always investigated first, especially when wealth is involved but I just can’t see it here. JMO

I personally think that if evidence could have proven Honey died first in either a double homicide or a murder/suicide, the beneficiaries would have been better off financially based on the way BS's will was worded.

 

[branmuffin]

RBBM

If Honey had lived, she would have had the net proceeds from the businesses and the children wouldn’t have received anything until her death.

I think had she lived, and Barry had died, she would have followed up on Jonathon’s commitment to repay the $50-60 million and taken a hard look at his other investments and financial support to people.

“The police documents detail that both wills stipulated that, should Barry die before Honey, Honey would be given the “net annual income” of all of Barry’s holdings, paid to her on a quarterly basis “or in periodic payments as Honey Sherman directs.” Honey was also to be paid for her “comfortable maintenance and benefit” as determined by the trustees (also called executors). The Star’s sources say that Barry’s fortune was close to $10 billion.

Police then note Barry’s wishes once Honey was no longer alive: “Upon the death of Honey Sherman the residual of the estate shall then be divided in equal shares for each child of Bernard Sherman,” according to the police documents, prepared on Jan. 18, 2018, after a detective read the wills.”
Detectives have probed Barry and Honey Sherman’s estate plans for murder clues — why, they won’t say | The Star

fwiw, I believe that she had her own will and the original document she signed was in the home (maybe removed or destroyed by the killer.)

Barry’s wills weren’t found at the home or at Apotex—Alex’s husband Brad Krawczyk provided them to police. Honey & Barry were going to have dinner at Alex & Brad’s home, had they lived, on Friday. I think it’s possible Honey had the will at home and was going to give it to them for safe-keeping.

The timing may make sense because she was about to leave for Miami, then two other trips.

My opinion only.

I agree completely that Honey had a will. I've always wanted LE to tell the public whether the holes punched in the walls the urban explorer mentioned were there when the Shermans were found. IMO

 

[ldlager]

If it was a personal matter, it might’ve boiled down to whether or not Honey supported or perhaps even influenced Barry in a hypothetical ugly financial dispute. As much as we know now about the actual inheritance, Honey did not inherit the estate so there can’t have been a financial motive to murder her. Beneficiaries are always investigated first, especially when wealth is involved but I just can’t see it here. JMO

 

[ldlager]

That’s right, the beneficiaries wouldn’t receive an inheritance until Honey passed. Meanwhile the four trustees Barry named in his will would have full financial control over his estate. We know the value of that estate was primarily the value of Apotex and as far as we know nothing has changed after the company ownership was passed on to the children after inheriting.

We don't know whether the Trustees would have proceeded down the road of putting Apotex up for sale if HS was the surviving spouse. We don't know how much actual or legal influence she would have had in this decision.

 

[juli99]

If each belt was looped individually the same scenario would apply by looping the belt around the railing first then cinching it. And then placing the belts around the Sherman's necks to keep them upright and facing a blank wall.

This is what I thought at first too. But from listening to KD's book, it sounded to me like each belt was looped around the neck and then tied to the railing. Kind of like what a collar on a dog leash would look like.

 

[MistyWaters]

We don't know whether the Trustees would have proceeded down the road of putting Apotex up for sale if HS was the surviving spouse. We don't know how much actual or legal influence she would have had in this decision.

She’d only have say if she held voting shares in Apotex, so much we don’t know since it’s a private company.

 

[MistyWaters]

This is what I thought at first too. But from listening to KD's book, it sounded to me like each belt was looped around the neck and then tied to the railing. Kind of like what a collar on a dog leash would look like.

The impression I had was also that the buckle part was secured around their necks and the end of the belt tied in a knot around the pool railing. If so, it’d be possible they were already strangled, the bodies dragged to the area where they were found and posed in a semi-sitting position held upright by the belts.

“According to police, the Shermans’ lifeless bodies were discovered in “semi-seated” positions with belts fastened around their necks and tied to a low railing by the indoor swimming pool in the basement.”
Murdered billionaire couple posed like 'creepy' life-sized figurines found in home: report

 

[ldlager]

The only way two belts could be affixed to the railing would be to use the buckle of one belt in the holes of the other to make one huge loop. It would require the killer to loop this larger belt over the railing. There are two ways to do it. First, using an infinity (figure 8) design looped over the top of the railing then placing the head of each deceased person in the loops. Being already dead the weight of each person would keep the bodies partially erect. The second way would be to loop one belt over the railing then buckle it into the other's holes. This way the belt can't be removed without unbuckling it. Then you'd have to pull it forward and make two individual loops and have the deceased person or perhaps an unconscious person help asphyxiate themselves by their own body weight.

The safety requirements for having railings around a pool like this may have changed over the years. When I look at the pictures of the pool area it looks like the railings are around 36 to 42 inches high, probably closer to 36 inches. (One of the most unappealing looking indoor pools I've ever seen, btw). They don't look like they would keep little kids safe since there are no metal uprights.

Apparently the belts were Barry's. How big would you say Barry's waist was? Maybe 38 or 40 inches? A belt for someone that size would be anywhere between 41 and 42 inches long. Here's a link to that info.

https://www.sizecharter.com/clothing-fit-and-measurement/belt-size-charts

If the railings are 36 inches high that means a belt looped around the railing would have a drop of anywhere between 19 to 20 inches considering the end of the belt has no holes.

I'm 5 foot 2 inches tall (or short depending on your outlook ). When I sit on the floor the distance between the floor and my neck is about 21 inches so I could get my head in the loop but it wouldn't be forcing me to remain erect to stop the pressure. Someone taller than me definitely wouldn't be straining at the constraint. I have no idea how tall the Shermans were. I saw an image of them with a group that included Anderson Cooper. He's listed as 5 foot 10 inches and Barry looks about two inches shorter than him and Honey two inches shorter than Barry and she's wearing low heels. That would make her about 5 feet 4 inches tall.

I doubt they were alive when placed in the loops of the belts because they would be struggling mightily. It would probably also require more than one person involved in their death from a practical point. (I'm not saying just one person was involved, though). I'm pretty confident the dead weight of both kept the bodies upright but in no way contributed to asphyxiation.

If each belt was looped individually the same scenario would apply by looping the belt around the railing first then cinching it. And then placing the belts around the Sherman's necks to keep them upright and facing a blank wall.

I definitely think the whole scenario was a message of some kind; a personal one. If it was a professional hit, you know, get in, neutralize subjects and leave type of scenario, the Shermans would have been found anywhere else in the house, dropping where they died. But this just reeks of some personal vendetta and one that satisfied some deep seated hatred toward them for some hurt, real or imagined.

Without getting too graphic, I imagined it simply as the belts were buckled relatively snugly or tightly around their necks (1 belt each) and the long end of the belt was then looped around the railing a couple of times , much like the way they looped the horse reins around the hitching posts in the old western movies. If that looping mechanism was strong enough to secure a horse, it would hold the deceased bodies upright. IMO

 

[ldlager]

She’d only have say if she held voting shares in Apotex, so much we don’t know since it’s a private company.

Or if she had a particular amount of influence over or moral suasion with the Trustees. One was her friend of over 40 years ; one was her daughters husband. One was her and her husband's long time loyal and trusted financial advisor and manager of their private investments. And the other was her son. Only the support of 2 of the first 3 would be required.

 

[MistyWaters]

I personally think that if evidence could have proven Honey died first in either a double homicide or a murder/suicide, the beneficiaries would have been better off financially based on the way BS's will was worded.

Had it been deemed a murder/suicide I don’t think the estate business would’ve changed, but just to say I think it’s highly unusual for beneficiaries directly benefitting from a billion dollar plus estate to strongly urge a murder investigation be undertaken. Why not let it be, file closed, let the Sherman name and their various philanthropic activities be forever tarnished. JMO

 

[MistyWaters]

Or if she had a particular amount of influence over or moral suasion with the Trustees. One was her friend of over 40 years ; one was her daughters husband. One was her and her husband's long time loyal and trusted financial advisor and manager of their private investments. And the other was her son. Only the support of 2 of the first 3 would be required.

It appeared Honey was never involved in Apotex at all but she likely supported Barry winding down toward retirement, re new home. We can only speculate on what would’ve happened to Apotex had she lived.

 

[juli99]

Without getting too graphic, I imagined it simply as the belts were buckled relatively snugly or tightly around their necks (1 belt each) and the long end of the belt was then looped around the railing a couple of times , much like the way they looped the horse reins around the hitching posts in the old western movies. If that looping mechanism was strong enough to secure a horse, it would hold the deceased bodies upright. IMO

Thanks for confirming what I thought. I wonder also if they were told that their deaths would be staged to look like a M/S.

 

[branmuffin]

The impression I had was also that the buckle part was secured around their necks and the end of the belt tied in a knot around the pool railing. If so, it’d be possible they were already strangled, the bodies dragged to the area where they were found and posed in a semi-sitting position held upright by the belts.

“According to police, the Shermans’ lifeless bodies were discovered in “semi-seated” positions with belts fastened around their necks and tied to a low railing by the indoor swimming pool in the basement.”
Murdered billionaire couple posed like 'creepy' life-sized figurines found in home: report

Long belts would have been able to cinch them around the neck at the buckle then pull up the body weight of each person and knot it around the railing, but not long enough for the bodies to actually be seated. It makes me think if one person was involved they'd have to be pretty strong to move the bodies into that position; neither of the Shermans were slim. One wrong move and a body could have fallen backward into the pool.

If they were alive when they were lynched it would have been a horrendous death, especially if their hands were bound behind their backs. Someone could have just sat there leaning against the wall watching them die and maybe that was the point. Although wouldn't the autopsy have noted that the belts were the murder weapon?

 

[branmuffin]

Without getting too graphic, I imagined it simply as the belts were buckled relatively snugly or tightly around their necks (1 belt each) and the long end of the belt was then looped around the railing a couple of times , much like the way they looped the horse reins around the hitching posts in the old western movies. If that looping mechanism was strong enough to secure a horse, it would hold the deceased bodies upright. IMO

Horses only think they've been secured. And that happens with training. A human would understand that there could be a possibility they could loosen the belt if they struggled.

 

[MistyWaters]

Long belts would have been able to cinch them around the neck at the buckle then pull up the body weight of each person and knot it around the railing, but not long enough for the bodies to actually be seated. It makes me think if one person was involved they'd have to be pretty strong to move the bodies into that position; neither of the Shermans were slim. One wrong move and a body could have fallen backward into the pool.

If they were alive when they were lynched it would have been a horrendous death, especially if their hands were bound behind their backs. Someone could have just sat there leaning against the wall watching them die and maybe that was the point. Although wouldn't the autopsy have noted that the belts were the murder weapon?

The autopsy reveals the medical cause of death.

Barry and Honey Sherman died of ligature neck compression: Police
“Ligature neck compression refers to strangulation that occurs as the result of a rope or some other sort of ligature being wrapped around the neck, CP24 Crime Specialist Steve Ryan said.”