thanks. I seem to recall in the early days there was speculation police were looking for his keys around the property and maybe in the sewers
CANADA Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #18
- Thread starter dotr
- Start date
- Status
thanks. I seem to recall in the early days there was speculation police were looking for his keys around the property and maybe in the sewers
Suspicious metals, keys or?..
rbbm.
Investigators comb through sewers for clues to deaths of Barry and Honey Sherman | CBC News
Investigators could be seen working with city employees Saturday to open up sewer grates near the house.
''They used a hydro-excavator as "a large vacuum" and a magnet to locate any "suspicious metals," a source said. They then took the gathered contents to a work yard and combed through the material, looking for anything that could be considered as evidence.
The team plans to comb through more sewers near the Sherman's mansion on 50 Old Colony Road, near Bayview and the 401 as soon as they can coordinate the operation with the city. ''
Lexiintoronto
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Feb 4, 2009
- Messages
- 5,562
- Reaction score
- 23,625
The police searching for keys makes sense to me. I remember they were using metal detectors around the property.
I don’t think the following have been mentioned as being found or missing:
-keys
-Barry’s wallet or Honey’s wallet or purse
-the items Honey purchased
The murder of this couple has been referenced by me several times on the Sherman threads, in this new article the Shermans are mentioned too.
Interesting that both husband and wife were murdered although it is now revealed that LE suspect it had something to do with Harry's business after all..... fwiw, imo.
Ws thread..
CANADA - Florence, 63 & Harold 64,Fagan, Toronto, 6 March 1978 (websleuths.com)
March 8 2022 rbbm.
HUNTER: Cops hunt killers who murdered 'legit, good kid' | Toronto Sun
''In many ways, the double murder of Harold and Florence Fagan were the Sherman murders before the Sherman murders.
On March 5, 1978, Harry, 64 — a successful entrepreneur and carnival magnate — and his wife, Florence, 63, were dropped off by their chauffeur at their Dewbourne Ave. mansion in posh Forest Hill. It was the last time anyone saw them alive and other than a brief phone call with their daughter, they were never heard from again.''
The next morning around 8:30 a.m., cops responded to a 911 call. Inside the home, the couple were found shot to death in a rear room.''
The house had been ransacked, but there didn’t appear to be a forced entry. Cops initially believed the slayings were a murder gone awry, but they soon changed their tune.
One of the Fagan’s business ventures was carnivals, and he was well-known for running concession stands at the CNE. Cops now believe these business dealings were connected to the murders.''
Interesting that both husband and wife were murdered although it is now revealed that LE suspect it had something to do with Harry's business after all..... fwiw, imo.
Ws thread..
CANADA - Florence, 63 & Harold 64,Fagan, Toronto, 6 March 1978 (websleuths.com)
March 8 2022 rbbm.
HUNTER: Cops hunt killers who murdered 'legit, good kid' | Toronto Sun
''In many ways, the double murder of Harold and Florence Fagan were the Sherman murders before the Sherman murders.
On March 5, 1978, Harry, 64 — a successful entrepreneur and carnival magnate — and his wife, Florence, 63, were dropped off by their chauffeur at their Dewbourne Ave. mansion in posh Forest Hill. It was the last time anyone saw them alive and other than a brief phone call with their daughter, they were never heard from again.''
The next morning around 8:30 a.m., cops responded to a 911 call. Inside the home, the couple were found shot to death in a rear room.''
The house had been ransacked, but there didn’t appear to be a forced entry. Cops initially believed the slayings were a murder gone awry, but they soon changed their tune.
One of the Fagan’s business ventures was carnivals, and he was well-known for running concession stands at the CNE. Cops now believe these business dealings were connected to the murders.''
I was looking for info on the keys and ended up on this article and this description of how TPS has not released still photos that exist of BS and HS arriving home from the CCTV across the street.
I wonder what they meant by their "direction of travel"?
Also, what would be present or absent in the photos that would be key to their case?
"Yim and Crown attorney Peter Scrutton both say that to unseal those photos would reveal the Shermans’ “direction of travel” that evening. In a phrase I borrowed from one of my longtime lawyers at the Star, Bert Bruser, I told the court “that’s nonsensical.” Unless they are trying to keep the photo sealed because it shows someone following the Shermans — or in the car with the Shermans — I argued that they should be released. Yim said again that the “presence or absence” of something in a photo is key to their case, and stopped there."
Murder, missteps and the ‘elephant in the room’ in the Barry and Honey Sherman case - Toronto News Live
I wonder what they meant by their "direction of travel"?
Also, what would be present or absent in the photos that would be key to their case?
"Yim and Crown attorney Peter Scrutton both say that to unseal those photos would reveal the Shermans’ “direction of travel” that evening. In a phrase I borrowed from one of my longtime lawyers at the Star, Bert Bruser, I told the court “that’s nonsensical.” Unless they are trying to keep the photo sealed because it shows someone following the Shermans — or in the car with the Shermans — I argued that they should be released. Yim said again that the “presence or absence” of something in a photo is key to their case, and stopped there."
Murder, missteps and the ‘elephant in the room’ in the Barry and Honey Sherman case - Toronto News Live
rbbm,
The first and probably not the last thing that comes to my mind regarding what is or is not in the sealed pics, is the home report BS apparently left on the floor under his gloves.
Maybe HS was not wearing her coat when she entered the house, perhaps suggesting she slipped out somewhere nearby first (travel direction)?
speculation, imo.
The fact Yim said the 'presence or absence' in the photos is the key to the case, and leads me to believe.
a) Very possibly somebody was photographed in the cars with the Shermans.
b) That person was known to the Shermans.
c) That person likely assisted the NW.
d) The police know who the person is, but do not have enough evidence yet, to absolutely win in court.
If my assumption is true about the Shermans bringing someone home with them, this will be an unbelievably shocking revelation when made public. As I write this I am having a hard time accepting this. It is almost too bizarre.
Under what circumstance would Barry on his way home from his office, stop and pick somebody up and bring that person home to Old Colony?
I can only speculate it would be a close friend or a relative.
Would Barry bring a co-worker home to work on some project that night?
Was Barry in the habit of bringing people home, or would this have been an unusual occurrence?
Did anybody who worked at Apotex, live near Barry and get the occasional ride from him?
Weird stuff.
I assume it means which entrance each of them used.
It seems to me, if TPS are going to have a case against anyone, they've got to have evidence that proves that particular person(s) was/were in the house, and that a particular sequence of events occurred in a highly plausible, ideally provable way, that resulted in how they were eventually found, including all the physical objects found/not found.
Prosecutors can't just have vague references to a hitman and wave their hands around and say they ended up dead. How they were subdued, actually killed, moved, staged, all that, in a trial, is IMO crucial to proving a case, not motive, motive proves nothing.
I wish the media would go back to reporting on the news, instead of manufacturing it for their own financial agenda.
JMO
I wondered if it meant which entrance they used. Which seems a bit ridiculous, considering we know where their cars were parked, and where they typically entered the house. Withholding that information seems pointless to me unless for some reason they did not use their typical entrances - and that's something only the killer would know.
The only thing I know is, there's speculation and then there's proof, and when it comes to prosecuting criminals, the difference genuinely matters. "Everybody knows", or "this journalist says" means nothing in a court of law.
JMO
Imagine taking this a step further.... each was subdued in their car, killed in their car. Bodies moved into the house. And the entire scene at the house was staged....
BS drove into the underground garage under his home and parked there . So I’m not sure how a camera across the street would have caught images of his house inspection report?
Doh, Quite right!
Must have been something big enough or someone with BS for the camera across the street to pick up something that was either in the pic or not, imo.
Are you assuming there must be something 'juicy' in the footage, that police are trying to conceal, otherwise police would release it to the Toronto Star?
I think police just don't release that kind of evidence, before a trial, period. Whether it's a famous case that will result in front page photos, or a completely obscure case that no one cares about. I think they're just keeping some boundaries about what evidence is integral to homicide investigations that is kept secret until a trial, vs what is given to the insatiable news media /armchair detectives.
JMO
Fwiw, this popped up.
March 3 2022
Sealing orders | CanLII Connects
The Supreme Court of Canada recognized that the public interest in protecting individuals’ dignity is sufficiently important that a sealing order preventing disclosure of personal information may be granted. However, Sherman sets the bar for granting a sealing order protecting personal information very high. Only information that “reveals something intimate and personal about the individual, their lifestyle, or experiences,” such as sexual orientation or potentially stigmatizing medical information will likely support the granting of a sealing order.''
March 3 2022
Sealing orders | CanLII Connects
- ''Sherman represents an important evolution in the protection of individuals’ privacy in Canada, and will be important wherever sensitive personal information may become part of the public record. For example, LGBTQ+ individuals may be at risk if their sexual orientation or gender identity are disclosed.
- As the possibility of having to disclose sensitive personal information may present a barrier to certain individuals in accessing the courts, Sherman provides a key tool in improving access to justice.''
The Supreme Court of Canada recognized that the public interest in protecting individuals’ dignity is sufficiently important that a sealing order preventing disclosure of personal information may be granted. However, Sherman sets the bar for granting a sealing order protecting personal information very high. Only information that “reveals something intimate and personal about the individual, their lifestyle, or experiences,” such as sexual orientation or potentially stigmatizing medical information will likely support the granting of a sealing order.''
I think it's the fact that Yim said that the presence or absence of something in a photo is key to their case. What specifically is he referring to?
From my googling, I can't tell if this is police lingo. The only reference I could find is here, referring to crime scene photography:
Victim description—In most jurisdictions, the body should never be moved or disturbed until the medical examiner has given approval. Once given permission, then note victim position, wounds, clothing, jewelry, or identification (its presence or absence).
https://mymission.lamission.edu/use...-Chapter 3 Crime Scene Investigation pt 2.pdf
Bobbi Pearl
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Mar 9, 2021
- Messages
- 614
- Reaction score
- 3,062
I do not believe any neighbor's cameras show the doors/entrances of the Sherman residence, maybe the driveway and close to the street but then you have trees between yards that would block the view.
I wonder if LE knows what time the security alarm system was turned off. If someone came in with BS or HS then why turn off the alarm system, HS/BS would disarm it when they walk in. The housekeeper stated it was turned off, not "disarmed" and still on, but off.
Curious, I did not see any alarm pad in the pics of the door area coming from the garage, if they had one it had to be in the garage? Did BS not disarm any alarms when he arrived, I recall seeing the alarm pads in the pics near the entry HS mostly used?
Lexiintoronto
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Feb 4, 2009
- Messages
- 5,562
- Reaction score
- 23,625
rbbm
Can you please post that photo? I haven’t seen it. (I did a search for it and cannot find it.)
Bobbi Pearl
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Mar 9, 2021
- Messages
- 614
- Reaction score
- 3,062
Dotr, I am looking for the link you provided last week I think it was. It was an early article and it had a statement from the furnace repairman, the one who went to the basement and did his work and left.
He mentioned that he saw frozen footprints in the snow on the driveway ramp - no direction of prints if they were in and out, just that he thought the prints were odd. maybe the pictures LE reference show someone following BS's car down the ramp and they do not want to give away the direction that person came in from, otherwise makes little sense to me?
What I found with this wording is only regarding vehicles.
Direction of travel Definition | Law Insider
https://www.lawinsider.com › dictionary › direction-of-...
Direction of travel means the direction a vehicle travels on a public road. Two-lane roads allowing travel in opposite directions have 2 directions of travel.
if you Streetview around Old Colony rd you see that not many homes have cameras that would actually see the street, they have so many mature trees and shrubs, you would need to be on their property to be seen in full view. The only view I see that would give glimpse of any walking figures at the Sherman property would have been across the street at 51. The camera at 47 can see the slim side of the driveway closest to Bayview Ave. Camera at 51 would see the street in front of whole home, but the side of the property furthest from Bayview could be out of scope, the neighbor trees between properties could block the sightline.
He mentioned that he saw frozen footprints in the snow on the driveway ramp - no direction of prints if they were in and out, just that he thought the prints were odd. maybe the pictures LE reference show someone following BS's car down the ramp and they do not want to give away the direction that person came in from, otherwise makes little sense to me?
What I found with this wording is only regarding vehicles.
Direction of travel Definition | Law Insider
https://www.lawinsider.com › dictionary › direction-of-...
Direction of travel means the direction a vehicle travels on a public road. Two-lane roads allowing travel in opposite directions have 2 directions of travel.
if you Streetview around Old Colony rd you see that not many homes have cameras that would actually see the street, they have so many mature trees and shrubs, you would need to be on their property to be seen in full view. The only view I see that would give glimpse of any walking figures at the Sherman property would have been across the street at 51. The camera at 47 can see the slim side of the driveway closest to Bayview Ave. Camera at 51 would see the street in front of whole home, but the side of the property furthest from Bayview could be out of scope, the neighbor trees between properties could block the sightline.
Lexiintoronto
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Feb 4, 2009
- Messages
- 5,562
- Reaction score
- 23,625
Not dotr, but I remembered the article:
“The trainer left. The furnace repair man came upstairs after an hour and also left. As is often the case in search warrant documents made public, some of his statements are redacted with large black lines. As the man walked to his van he spotted frozen footprints on the partially heated ramp to the underground garage. They looked old, he thought.”
‘Someone has killed my clients’: Newly released documents detail the day Barry and Honey Sherman were found dead, and what police did after
- Status