CANADA Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #18

[ldlager]

Virtually all Wills drawn up by a lawyer include a standard 30-day Survivor Clause meaning if the spouse does not survive for 30 days, then the secondary designated beneficiaries kicks in, in this case the four children. The reason for that is there can be various circumstances such as a plane crash or car accident when it becomes impossible to determine who died first, and so it minimizes needless estate fees. We don’t know if Barry’s Will included such a clause but I’d be very surprised if it didn’t given the magnitude of his estate.

What we don't know is whether the killer or the person who arranged these murders 1) had any knowledge about 30 day Survivor Clauses, or even how succession rules would apply in the case of them both dying on the same day; and 2) had any knowledge about the actual contents of Barry's Will. They may have just assumed that if BS died first, BS Will would leave everything to HS.

I think HS may have told certain people that she was leaving them substantial amounts of $. They may have assumed or understood or even been told that that this was set out in her Will. There are already reports that HS "promised" MS hundreds of millions of dollars. Conversely, there may also have been a fear amongst certain people that thought that they should be potential beneficiaries of HS that HS would leave all her wealth to charities (or other people and not them) once she passed away.

IMO if one assumes they were murdered for money, one possible scenario could be as follows: (there are others):
Someone believed they should be beneficiaries of HS, but either had been told or assumed that they would be left nothing by HS. They assumed that BS' Will bequeathed everything to HS if BS passed way first; and that if HS predeceased BS that BS Will left them an inheritance. Most importantly, they wanted or needed the money now.

Under this scenario, if HS died a year or 2 after BS died they would receive nothing, as all BS' money would have gone to HS and they werent a beneficiary of HS. If HS passed away a few years before BS they would have to wait until BS passed away in order inherit; and there was a risk that in the interim BS could have altered his Will to reduce or eliminate their inheritance. The only way for them to guarantee themselves receiving an inheritance, and receiving it now would be if BS and HS were to pass away together, thereby invoking the 30 day clause.

MOO -- not trying to accuse anyone of anything here, just pointing out a possible scenario

 

[ldlager]

Virtually all Wills drawn up by a lawyer include a standard 30-day Survivor Clause meaning if the spouse does not survive for 30 days, then the secondary designated beneficiaries kicks in, in this case the four children. The reason for that is there can be various circumstances such as a plane crash or car accident when it becomes impossible to determine who died first, and so it minimizes needless estate fees. We don’t know if Barry’s Will included such a clause but I’d be very surprised if it didn’t given the magnitude of his estate.

What we don't know is whether the killer or the person who arranged these murders 1) had any knowledge about 30 day Survivor Clauses, or even how succession rules would apply in the case of them both dying on the same day; and 2) had any knowledge about the actual contents of Barry's Will. They may have just assumed that if BS died first, BS Will would leave everything to HS.

I think HS may have told certain people that she was leaving them substantial amounts of $. They may have assumed or understood or even been told that that this was set out in her Will. There are already reports that HS "promised" MS hundreds of millions of dollars. Conversely, there may also have been a fear amongst certain people that thought that they should be potential beneficiaries of HS that HS would leave all her wealth to charities (or other people and not them) once she passed away.

IMO if one assumes they were murdered for money, one possible scenario could be as follows: (there are others):
Someone believed they should be beneficiaries of HS, but either had been told or assumed that they would be left nothing by HS. They assumed that BS' Will bequeathed everything to HS if BS passed way first; and that if HS predeceased BS that BS Will left them an inheritance. Most importantly, they wanted or needed the money now.

Under this scenario, if HS died a year or 2 after BS died they would receive nothing, as all BS' money would have gone to HS and they werent a beneficiary of HS. If HS passed away a few years before BS they would have to wait until BS passed away in order inherit; and there was a risk that in the interim BS could have altered his Will to reduce or eliminate their inheritance. The only way for them to guarantee themselves receiving an inheritance, and receiving it now would be if BS and HS were to pass away together, thereby invoking the 30 day clause.

MOO -- not trying to accuse anyone of anything here, just pointing out a possible scenario

 

[ldlager]

Virtually all Wills drawn up by a lawyer include a standard 30-day Survivor Clause meaning if the spouse does not survive for 30 days, then the secondary designated beneficiaries kicks in, in this case the four children. The reason for that is there can be various circumstances such as a plane crash or car accident when it becomes impossible to determine who died first, and so it minimizes needless estate fees. We don’t know if Barry’s Will included such a clause but I’d be very surprised if it didn’t given the magnitude of his estate.

What we don't know is whether the killer or the person who arranged these murders 1) had any knowledge about 30 day Survivor Clauses, or even how succession rules would apply in the case of them both dying on the same day; and 2) had any knowledge about the actual contents of Barry's Will. They may have just assumed that if BS died first, BS Will would leave everything to HS.

I think HS may have told certain people that she was leaving them substantial amounts of $. They may have assumed or understood or even been told that that this was set out in her Will. There are already reports that HS "promised" MS hundreds of millions of dollars. Conversely, there may also have been a fear amongst certain people that thought that they should be potential beneficiaries of HS that HS would leave all her wealth to charities (or other people and not them) once she passed away.

IMO if one assumes they were murdered for money, one possible scenario could be as follows: (there are others):
Someone believed they should be beneficiaries of HS, but either had been told or assumed that they would be left nothing by HS. They assumed that BS' Will bequeathed everything to HS if BS passed way first; and that if HS predeceased BS that BS Will left them an inheritance. Most importantly, they wanted or needed the money now.

Under this scenario, if HS died a year or 2 after BS died they would receive nothing, as all BS' money would have gone to HS and they werent a beneficiary of HS. If HS passed away a few years before BS they would have to wait until BS passed away in order inherit; and there was a risk that in the interim BS could have altered his Will to reduce or eliminate their inheritance. The only way for them to guarantee themselves receiving an inheritance, and receiving it now would be if BS and HS were to pass away together, thereby invoking the 30 day clause.

MOO -- not trying to accuse anyone of anything here, just pointing out a possible scenario

 

[ldlager]

Sorry for the duplicate postings!

 

[WINDSOR]

I don't know why a lawyer would assume there couldn't be one or many newer Wills. In any event, no Will has evidently ever been located.
Assuming no lawyer has come forward to date, there are only 2 reasonable options that I can think of:
1) She had a Will that a lawyer helped draft, and the lawyer knows it was revoked and was not replaced with a Will that he/she prepared and had HS execute
2) HS had no Will

---Understand that most people deal with the same lawyer(s) over and over again. 'He is my lawyer' or 'He is our lawyer'
---If a person gets a new Will from a new lawyer, the previous lawyer is usually not advised the old Will has been revoked.
--- Currently there appears to be no Will. No lawyer has come forward with any Will, new, old, valid or revoked.
---I agree HS had no Will.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

I have questions about the discussion of an alleged Will Honey had or hadn’t -
- If there was something undesired in Honey’s unknown-about Will, who would have actually known, given nobody seems to know for certain if she even had a Will. That she would only tell one person who became her killer would seem rather unusual.
- If she hadn’t been murdered, what’s in a Will remains meaningless until death so why would anyone hurry her demise? If they cared, why were both murdered and not just Honey? Or simply not murder Honey who could’ve lived for 10 years or more, no need to be concerned about her Will because people amend their Wills all the time.
- It was Barry who held the majority of the wealth, why murder Honey for anything in her Will as it only represented a small fraction of the entire Sherman estates?

I just can’t comprehend why the couple were ruthlessly killed over something in Honey’s Will. Can anyone outline a theory that meets the logic test?

bbm
*theory:*

Honey’s will was taken so that she’d die intestate and her estate would be vulnerable to claims, even hand-written IOUs. They knew her previous will had been revoked and Honey had only one signed document. Honey updating her will sparked the murder plan. I think there would be other issues at play: Honey or Barry cutting off financial support to them or calling in loans/mortgages.

With Barry staged as the ‘murderer’, Honey’s extended family could claim part of Honey’s estate, or request support, as they’d be ‘victims’.

Maybe not a close relative to Honey, but close enough to financially benefit.

/end of theory

I think it’s unlikely, but possible. I think it’s more likely that the killer destroyed Honey’s will (if there was one). If she had one I’d think she’d name some charities, friends or family and that would have bothered the killer. The killer may not have known exactly what assets Honey had.

 

[MistyWaters]

bbm
*theory:*

Honey’s will was taken so that she’d die intestate and her estate would be vulnerable to claims, even hand-written IOUs. They knew her previous will had been revoked and Honey had only one signed document. Honey updating her will sparked the murder plan. I think there would be other issues at play: Honey or Barry cutting off financial support to them or calling in loans/mortgages.

With Barry staged as the ‘murderer’, Honey’s extended family could claim part of Honey’s estate, or request support, as they’d be ‘victims’.

Maybe not a close relative to Honey, but close enough to financially benefit.

/end of theory

I think it’s unlikely, but possible. I think it’s more likely that the killer destroyed Honey’s will (if there was one). If she had one I’d think she’d name some charities, friends or family and that would have bothered the killer. The killer may not have known exactly what assets Honey had.

Possible then for that theory to apply, Honey would’ve kept her Will somewhere in the house and given the killer access to it. I wonder where Barry’s Will was located because I’d think they’d keep them somewhere together, especially as their home was for sale and they planned to stay in Florida until mid January. It seemed as if they were hoping for a quick sale that might’ve been concluded prior to their return. Nobody has contested Honey’s estate. It’s also possible her Will wasn’t located and even if a lawyer with a copy came forward, rather than the trustees attempting to have it legalized through the Courts, if she named the children as beneficiaries it wouldn’t be worth the effort as either way they were next of kin.

I recall KW claiming here that Barry’s Will was written on Staples proforma, which I really don’t think could be true.

 

[juli99]

Hmmm... to think that they both died over something in Honey's will does seem a bit absurd. Maybe she didn't have one after all? Maybe they were just really bad at thinking about the fact they could die? But why would someone make up the story about her talking about updating her will? That is the part that bugs me.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

Possible then for that theory to apply, Honey would’ve kept her Will somewhere in the house and given the killer access to it. I wonder where Barry’s Will was located because I’d think they’d keep them somewhere together, especially as their home was for sale and they planned to stay in Florida until mid January. It seemed as if they were hoping for a quick sale that might’ve been concluded prior to their return. Nobody has contested Honey’s estate. It’s also possible her Will wasn’t located and even if a lawyer with a copy came forward, rather than the trustees attempting to have it legalized through the Courts, if she named the children as beneficiaries it wouldn’t be worth the effort as either way they were next of kin.

I recall KW claiming here that Barry’s Will was written on Staples proforma, which I really don’t think could be true.

It’s terrible theory of mine, now that I think of it.

Alex’s husband Brad gave the police a copy of Barry’s wills. I agree that it’s unlikely he used generic form wills. He worked with the best lawyers in Toronto.

 

[MistyWaters]

Hmmm... to think that they both died over something in Honey's will does seem a bit absurd. Maybe she didn't have one after all? Maybe they were just really bad at thinking about the fact they could die? But why would someone make up the story about her talking about updating her will? That is the part that bugs me.

I think it would be highly unusual for someone to share that sort of private information with a service worker and then not tell anyone directly involved including the appointed executors EXCEPT their future killer, who was also the only person aware that Honey stored her Will at her home, also highly unusual.

The way I see it anyone can tell KD anything, they’re not under oath and he has no means of vetting, he writes what he’s been told. Plus as he protects the identity of his sources there’s no way for anyone to assess their credibility/validity. Did this person pass that information on to TPS, we have no idea whatsoever.

JMO

 

[FromGermany1]

Why did HS want to update her will -if she ever said it indeed- at a time, the Old Colony home wasn't sold, the long vacation was imminent and the new giant home, which should be her's, wasn't even planned completely? Why was it so urgent at this time? Did the economic end of the year have anything to do with it? Was there a transfer of valuables or a money transaction beforehand? Did that have to do with the "stuff", she had to handle, when she missed a charity meeting without excusing herself?

What will happen, if I don't update my LW and if I die prematurely? The wrong person will inherit, the wrong person will inherit too much/too little, the right person will inherit nothing, the inheritance can be distributed unfairly? What else can be?

 

[dotr]

Why did HS want to update her will -if she ever said it indeed- at a time, the Old Colony home wasn't sold, the long vacation was imminent and the new giant home, which should be her's, wasn't even planned completely? Why was it so urgent at this time? Did the economic end of the year have anything to do with it? Was there a transfer of valuables or a money transaction beforehand? Did that have to do with the "stuff", she had to handle, when she missed a charity meeting without excusing herself?

What will happen, if I don't update my LW and if I die prematurely? The wrong person will inherit, the wrong person will inherit too much/too little, the right person will inherit nothing, the inheritance can be distributed unfairly? What else can be?

All about the grandkids, already born and those yet to arrive? speculation, imo.

 

[juli99]

I think it would be highly unusual for someone to share that sort of private information with a service worker and then not tell anyone directly involved including the appointed executors EXCEPT their future killer, who was also the only person aware that Honey stored her Will at her home, also highly unusual.

The way I see it anyone can tell KD anything, they’re not under oath and he has no means of vetting, he writes what he’s been told. Plus as he protects the identity of his sources there’s no way for anyone to assess their credibility/validity. Did this person pass that information on to TPS, we have no idea whatsoever.

JMO

I'm curious for everyone in here - do you know if your parents have a will? Do you know where to find it? Do you know who is named executor and beneficiary? To be honest, up until this year I'm not sure I could have answered those questions. The fact that TPS was looking for a will for HS suggests to me that nobody knew for sure either way.

 

[ldlager]

I am curious- does anyone think LE is really actually working on this case anymore? No pleas for public assistance, no announcements regarding the reward $, no updates re any progress. There doesn’t even seem to be a mechanism ( short of the press reporting some info that it has to get from third parties) by which the public can actually know if the case is still active, and in some measure thereby hold LE to account. I sometimes wonder if LE is happy if it just disappears from view.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

I am curious- does anyone think LE is really actually working on this case anymore? No pleas for public assistance, no announcements regarding the reward $, no updates re any progress. There doesn’t even seem to be a mechanism ( short of the press reporting some info that it has to get from third parties) by which the public can actually know if the case is still active, and in some measure thereby hold LE to account. I sometimes wonder if LE is happy if it just disappears from view.

TPS still has both cases in their ‘active investigation’ part of their website.

Homicide #64/2017
Homicide #65/2017

So it’s not officially a cold case.

KD is working to have the police reports and statements of KW, FDA & JS released and I think that will happen. At least in part .

KD hasn’t written much about KW, but he mentioned him in the last two articles. I think he has an article topic in mind but needs the court documents about him released, imo.

(Notice we still haven’t heard about a police statement from AP?)

 

[JDG]

I'm curious for everyone in here - do you know if your parents have a will? Do you know where to find it? Do you know who is named executor and beneficiary? To be honest, up until this year I'm not sure I could have answered those questions. The fact that TPS was looking for a will for HS suggests to me that nobody knew for sure either way.

Honey had a will. It had been recently updated before the murders.

She was very astute and had access to the best lawyers money could buy.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

Hmmm... to think that they both died over something in Honey's will does seem a bit absurd. Maybe she didn't have one after all? Maybe they were just really bad at thinking about the fact they could die? But why would someone make up the story about her talking about updating her will? That is the part that bugs me.

I think the ‘service provider’ is telling the truth, imo. In this article she said she contacted police with the information right after the murders. She said Honey picked her up at Yonge and St. Clair after meeting with lawyers.
Honey Sherman had a will she updated shortly before billionaire couple slain, confidant reveals

In this article, police records confirm Honey communicated with lawyers in the Yonge & Queen area before her death:

“Some of those were legal communication Honey had with lawyers at two Toronto law firms, Blaney McMurtry LLP or Torkin Manes law firm. Due to redactions, the Star does not know what those communications dealt with but they were not long before Honey died.”
Barry and Honey Sherman may have been under ‘surveillance’ a month before their murders, homicide detectives believe

 

[MistyWaters]

I'm curious for everyone in here - do you know if your parents have a will? Do you know where to find it? Do you know who is named executor and beneficiary? To be honest, up until this year I'm not sure I could have answered those questions. The fact that TPS was looking for a will for HS suggests to me that nobody knew for sure either way.

Okay we’ll suppose Honey told nobody, so how would the killer know there was something in her Will worth killing her for? Any why would she reveal Will details to one person who would be negatively impacted, giving them a motive to murder her but not mention a word to anybody else?

I agree, it seems nobody knew information about if Honey had Will. But I don’t believe whether she had a Will or not was the motive for the couple’s horrible murders. JMO

 

[juli99]

Okay we’ll suppose Honey told nobody, so how would the killer know there was something in her Will worth killing her for? Any why would she reveal Will details to one person who would be negatively impacted, giving them a motive to murder her but not mention a word to anybody else?

I agree, it seems nobody knew information about if Honey had Will. But I don’t believe whether she had a Will or not was the motive for the couple’s horrible murders. JMO

I don't think she told nobody. She probably told Barry, if she did have a will. If he knew, then possibly he told someone else in the inner circle too.

 

[juli99]

Honey had a will. It had been recently updated before the murders.

She was very astute and had access to the best lawyers money could buy.

Another possibility is that she did have a will, but it was deemed not to be valid for some reason. In that case, she would still have died intestate. My brother had a will but there were two technical issues with it. All documentation going forward was as though he never had a will.