The ME should be able to determine how long each person was deceased. There might be a long gap between them. We don't know yet about the timing of the deaths.
Did BS, during that gap, make any phone calls or send any emails? That is something to be investigated. We haven't heard anything about that yet.
During the gap between deaths, is there evidence of where BS was in the house and what he was doing? He was unlikely in the pool area the entire time, unless he had the belts set up in advance. If he didn't have anything set up, he had to get the belts from somewhere in the house, presumably his bedroom closet.
If there was an outside murderer, is there evidence that someone outside the household was in BS's closet to get belts or did the murderer bring the belts?
I'm on the fence, but lean toward murder-suicide. :fence:
jmopinion
...Sherman never backed down from a fight.
Those who knew him say it was his willingness to go to war about anything that helped make Sherman one of the countrys richest men.
During his life, he launched literally hundreds of lawsuits and was on the receiving end of more than a few.
And it made him a lot of enemies.
The concept of letting go was not in his DNA, longtime friend and former Apotex CEO Jack Kay said. He was tenacious when he felt he was right.
How long do toxicology report takes. I am guessing the investigators are waiting on this.
Just to explain about the media, when the news came out about the deaths, people, and the media, immediately wanted to know what happened. The media were standing for hours outside the house on a cold day. They didn't want to wait for days for the official announcement. Intense curiosity: were they murdered? A very uncommon thing to happen in Toronto, 2 wealthy people killed in their home, pretty darn news-worthy.
And yet Toronto police specifically stated homicide detectives were not assigned to the case, but were assisting the investigation. They were not looking for suspects! What could that mean? That there was no obvious signs of homicide. So what would that mean? Could it be murder-suicide? Reporters pestered their sources for confirmation.
That's how these things work: reading between the lines, second-guessing what police statements really mean, anticipating their next move, wanting to be first to publish any news.
The fact there's been no official statement that the deaths were both homicides, is a pretty strong clue, to me, of murder-suicide. Police will usually announce whether a death was a homicide right away, they don't pussy-foot around. Most homicides are obvious: signs of struggle, and death through someone's aggressive use of force. Violence leaves signs of violence behind, and on bodies, homicide detectives and forensics can spot these things
That's a good point. If someone murdered them, they either would have needed to bring the belts to the crime scene or locate them in the home. If the belts were from the home, it indicates a murderer would not have come there with the intent to kill but did so as the situation escalated to violence. That would indicate a violent altercation of some kind took place with arguments, shouting, a struggle, etc. that any staff in the home would have heard. JMO
I suppose, if this is double-murder, that the killer could have used his own belt and BS's belt.
Just thinking through the logistics...jmo
The TPS does NOt have the resources to carry this to the end. This should be an RCMP investigation.JMO.
[h=1]Investigators comb through sewers for clues to deaths of Barry and Honey Sherman[/h] [h=3]A source with knowledge of the investigation says that the move was done 'out of an abundance of caution'[/h]
Investigators could be seen working with city employees Saturday to open up sewer grates near the house.
They used a hydro-excavator as "a large vacuum" and a magnet to locate any "suspicious metals," a source said. They then took the gathered contents to a work yard and combed through the material, looking for anything that could be considered as evidence.
The team plans to comb through more sewers near the Sherman's mansion on 50 Old Colony Road, near Bayview and the 401 as soon as they can coordinate the operation with the city.
A Toronto police forensic officer being raised above the Sherman home on Thursday to photograph the crime scene and view the home's roof for possible clues. (John Lancaster/CBC)
I think some folks here need to take a moment, a breather, and re-evaluate. I cannot tell you how many times I read some form of "I know this was a murder-suicide because the police made a statement saying so" over the last few pages. The police made no such statement. It sounds like it was a preliminary theory when TPS arrived at the crime scene, and someone in the know, maybe even someone who was there, took that and spoke to a reporter. Anonymously.
I believe it's possible that when arriving at the crime scene, someone could have said "this looks like a murder-suicide". That's a natural reaction, I suppose. But TPS, in no way, shape or form, have confirmed that to the media. I also think it's unfair to say that the children are flat out rejecting the murder-suicide theory, and that TPS are appeasing them because they have money. They simply asked LE to do a thorough investigation, and refrain from leaking information that hasn't been substantiated, per their statement. That seems to be what LE are now doing.
We know very, very little in all honesty. There are so many plausible scenarios where this could have been a murder-suicide and this could have been a double-homicide. I think the only responsible place to be at this point in time is on the fence, and that's where I remain seated. Come join me, I'll share my hot cocoa. :fence:
The belts. They were on scene, and according to news reports they deceased had their heads in the belts.
As for what is in the sewer - police were pressured to investigate these deaths as a double homicide, so that's what they are doing. If this was a real murder, where a weapon may have been used for coercion, police would be searching the sewer to see if a weapon was tossed near the home. It's a huge expense to the Toronto police force to satisfy the emotional needs of a wealthy family.
Yes, I'm on that fence with you.I think some folks here need to take a moment, a breather, and re-evaluate. I cannot tell you how many times I read some form of "I know this was a murder-suicide because the police made a statement saying so" over the last few pages. The police made no such statement. It sounds like it was a preliminary theory when TPS arrived at the crime scene, and someone in the know, maybe even someone who was there, took that and spoke to a reporter. Anonymously.
I believe it's possible that when arriving at the crime scene, someone could have said "this looks like a murder-suicide". That's a natural reaction, I suppose. But TPS, in no way, shape or form, have confirmed that to the media. I also think it's unfair to say that the children are flat out rejecting the murder-suicide theory, and that TPS are appeasing them because they have money. They simply asked LE to do a thorough investigation, and refrain from leaking information that hasn't been substantiated, per their statement. That seems to be what LE are now doing.
We know very, very little in all honesty. There are so many plausible scenarios where this could have been a murder-suicide and this could have been a double-homicide. I think the only responsible place to be at this point in time is on the fence, and that's where I remain seated. Come join me, I'll share my hot cocoa. :fence:
Yes, I'm on that fence with you.
Although, my feet are dangling on the Murder-Murder side.
:fence:
No we don't know what goes on in people's minds however the majority of murder suicides do have indicating signs prior even though most people may not realize it or ignore them. My reason for mentioning that it is surprising that the police would put this out so early in the case is that they had not spoken to friends and family at that point which is an important factor when investigating a high profile incident of someone who seemed to have a lot of potential enemies. While friends and families are unlikely to come out and say "yeah he did it", the police could have taken time to investigate if BS had depression or financial issues or if there were any tensions between the couple. But it appears they didn't do that and it was irresponsible to announce that conclusion before that or prior to the autopsy. Now police are in a bad spot as they either have to admit that they were incorrect or that the public will doubt them as they rushed to that conclusion with out concrete evidence.
Good Post! Good Questions!Again apologies for not being able to keep up with every post.. just wondered if anyone had noticed this before.. from an article written in the beginning (Dec19). He's calling it 'what we know'. So if the couple visited the architect on Wed evening, but they died on Thursday (doesn't say what time though, could've been in the wee hours just after midnight on Wednesday..), then it suggests they were not ambushed when they returned to their home on Wed eve? We know B did not show up at work on Thursday, so were they already dead? Why did they still have their coats/boots on if they died on Thursday?
What we know:
- The Shermans died Thursday inside their 12,440 square-foot Old Colony Rd. mansion which was up for sale for $6.9 million.
http://torontosun.com/news/local-news/warmington-mystery-shrouds-deaths-of-billionaire-couple
I think some folks here need to take a moment, a breather, and re-evaluate. I cannot tell you how many times I read some form of "I know this was a murder-suicide because the police made a statement saying so" over the last few pages. The police made no such statement. It sounds like it was a preliminary theory when TPS arrived at the crime scene, and someone in the know, maybe even someone who was there, took that and spoke to a reporter. Anonymously.
I believe it's possible that when arriving at the crime scene, someone could have said "this looks like a murder-suicide". That's a natural reaction, I suppose. But TPS, in no way, shape or form, have confirmed that to the media. I also think it's unfair to say that the children are flat out rejecting the murder-suicide theory, and that TPS are appeasing them because they have money. They simply asked LE to do a thorough investigation, and refrain from leaking information that hasn't been substantiated, per their statement. That seems to be what LE are now doing.
We know very, very little in all honesty. There are so many plausible scenarios where this could have been a murder-suicide and this could have been a double-homicide. I think the only responsible place to be at this point in time is on the fence, and that's where I remain seated. Come join me, I'll share my hot cocoa. :fence: