Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #2

[Cookiejean]

I would be interested to hear if anything has been said about more specific times of death for the Shermans. There appeared to be a window from the wednesday (after work for Barry) when they returned from an appointment with an architect to friday around 11 45am when the bodies were found. If evidence shows that Mrs Sherman died first and her husband a number of hours later, it would seem to support the murder-suicide theory, in my opinion. Although not impossible, it would seem ludicrous for a murderer to stick around for such a long time. Could this be part of the reason for the police theory?

I found the murder-suicide theory unbelievable at first, until I read a post several days ago in which someone made a comment about the photos of the Shermans bodies being removed from the house. It appeared that one body was flat and one not, perhaps one in rigor and one not. Of course, that was just supposition as well, but a large gap in the times of death would make it much harder to make a case for a double murder.

Wondered if any had heard anything regarding any of this or opinions?

 

[RAISINISBACK]

I have noticed many people have joined WS in the last week and are really adamant about the murder theory. Perhaps they know something the rest of us don’t know. Some do sound like they know BS and HS personally. If this is the case, they need to get verified.

I agree. As a verified case insider their words, theories and opinions would carry much more weight. If any of them are verified as case insiders I would absolutely love to hear what they know and why they hold the opinion that they do.

But if they do not personally know the victims then perhaps they might take a few moments to go over the rules regarding case insiders and the rules that we all strive to follow on here.

After all these rules are what makes web sleuths the pleasant place that it is.

Just my suggestion.

 

[Quinnergirl]

Brilliant people are sometimes given a lot of leeway on personal 'quirks'. Add his wealth and brilliance, no one would really bother with an 'eccentric' Billionaire. JMO

They may have been given leeway at some point in time on these quirks JDG. Bill Gates is also a well known Aspie. He has not ruffled any feathers that I know of. So it is only relative. I only know my experience. The whole staging, JMO, of this death could have very well thrown junior members of the TPS off. I don’t know who the first responders were upon the 911 medical call, but it could be likely that they were younger/less experienced members of the TPS and jumped the shark so to speak. Or the person who leaked the info was less experienced and put the murder-suicide out there because he heard from one of his/her senior members that it looked liked that initially? JMO of course. I am in no way associated to the rich and famous, as this case appears, but I still feel strongly that it was a hit. He really pissed off a lot of people.

 

[DarkSkink]

I would be interested to hear if anything has been said about more specific times of death for the Shermans. There appeared to be a window from the wednesday (after work for Barry) when they returned from an appointment with an architect to friday around 11 45am when the bodies were found. If evidence shows that Mrs Sherman died first and her husband a number of hours later, it would seem to support the murder-suicide theory, in my opinion. Although not impossible, it would seem ludicrous for a murderer to stick around for such a long time. Could this be part of the reason for the police theory?

I found the murder-suicide theory unbelievable at first, until I read a post several days ago in which someone made a comment about the photos of the Shermans bodies being removed from the house. It appeared that one body was flat and one not, perhaps one in rigor and one not. Of course, that was just supposition as well, but a large gap in the times of death would make it much harder to make a case for a double murder.

Wondered if any had heard anything regarding any of this or opinions?

Well, the theory of them dying hours apart also lends itself to the double murder theory.

If this was a double murder, Barry would likely be the target. Given the fact they were hung, it would indicate the perp took time and wanted a slower than usual death. It also indicates the perp had a personal investment in their deaths, rather than needing a quick, clean getaway. The perp also left the bodies behind rather than try to hide it. The killer may have also tried to stage the scene to appear as a double suicide or murder suicide.

If a killer is going to be that invested, and go through that amount of trouble, it's within the realm of plausibility that the killer would also spend time taunting and torturing the person they held so much hate for. What better way than killing their partner first, and then progressing from there?

The point is, the time between their deaths doesn't really indicate anything either way when combined with the little we know.

 

[AllyJane]

I don't think in this case, that the religious community would do that even if it was ruled a murder/suicide. They would just choose to disbelieve it, IMO.

Jews and Muslims must bury as soon as possible usually the next day as long as it doesn't fall on the Sabbath. However, regardless of your religion or position in society, legal requirements such as an autopsy will override any religious need. So the fact that their bodies were discovered on the Friday, they should have been buried on the Sunday if they died by natural causes. But because an autopsy was required, the burial could not be scheduled until the bodies are officially released by LE. LE does its best to respect the religious needs of the families without compromising the case. (I know that as a Jew and someone who has lost a family member to murder).

 

[thesensitivechild]

This is either a murder-suicide or a double murder staged to look like a double suicide ( or perhaps a murder suicide). We have discussed how unusual a murder suicide this would have been, but it also would be an unusual murder.

Assuming this was a double murder, there is some reason to believe this was a hired “hit” or otherwise done by someone who knew what they were doing. The killer(s) was able to get into and out of the house without being seen or attracting attention and they did not leave any obvious indication of their presence. We don’t how cleanly it was really done and we don’t know about the security system (I’m pretty certain there was one). It will all come out eventually.

Realistically, most people have no ties to organized crime and would have no way to locate some “ Sammy the Bull” type. Most “hit men” are just some guy with criminal inclinations who wants some fast money; Hardly a professional. Hiring someone like that entails all kinds of risks and if the guy gets caught, you can expect he will sell you out to save his skin. Still, people do cut deals like that and sometimes the job does get done.

Staging a murder to look like a double suicide is pretty unusual. I would expect most hired killers to just kill the intended victim in the simplest, most effective means possible and then get out of Dodge while leaving as little evidence as possible.

From what I have read, staged suicides are rarely successful. Of course, successfully staged suicides that are never detected would not be part of any statistics of the matter.

The murderer and the person doing the hiring would always be better off if
the hit man made it look like a suicide but the added time and the greater chance of leaving evidence might offset the advantages. If the person doing the hiring has a solid alibi and has covered up his financial and phone records, and the hit man has left no ties to the victim, people may suspect something but prosecution would be unlikely.

The least likely scenario would be staging the victims to be some sort of “message” to the family. This would be a dead giveaway to who was behind it.

We can be sure that there is going to be an absolutely thorough investigation and nothing will be released until every detail is considered.

If this turns out to be a double murder it will be the biggest case in Canada and all of the stops will be pulled until it is solved.




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Or it was so well organized the person is long gone... hired hit. No longer in Canada.


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[thesensitivechild]

Just a thought. Hired hit man. Instructed to kill wife. Then to corner husband (make it clear he is about to be killed), show him his dead wife and then claim that in death people will think he is responsible for killing the person he loved most. Hows that for vengeance. To know that your life if about to be taken away and with it your integrity and subsequently your families sense of inner peace. Moo. That would be torture. That would be humiliation. That would be fear on every level- that people won’t know the truth of what really did transpire, your legacy ruined, that your family will believe you did this. Can you imagine that terror. There we have the motive. Hired hit physically and psychologically. All speculation.
Ps if this does involve a hit and this is really me just riffing- I could see police being scared themselves...

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[Quinnergirl]

Just a thought. Hired hit man. Instructed to kill wife. Then to corner husband (make it clear he is about to be killed), show him his dead wife and then claim that in death people will think he is responsible for killing the person he loved most. Hows that for vengeance. To know that your life if about to be taken away and with it your integrity and subsequently your families sense of inner peace. Moo. That would be torture. That would be humiliation. That would be fear on every level- that people won’t know the truth of what really did transpire, your legacy ruined. That speaks motive to me and it screams a desire for vengeance. Hired hit psychically and psychologically.


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I also think along these lines…this was personal…this was intended to pack a personal punch before death…I can almost hear the dialogue. (I won’t go into what I imagine was spoken). This was a ‘hurtful” hit. JMOO I am a sensitive too

 

[Sphinx]

Well, the theory of them dying hours apart also lends itself to the double murder theory.

If this was a double murder, Barry would likely be the target. Given the fact they were hung, it would indicate the perp took time and wanted a slower than usual death. It also indicates the perp had a personal investment in their deaths, rather than needing a quick, clean getaway. The perp also left the bodies behind rather than try to hide it. The killer may have also tried to stage the scene to appear as a double suicide or murder suicide.

If a killer is going to be that invested, and go through that amount of trouble, it's within the realm of plausibility that the killer would also spend time taunting and torturing the person they held so much hate for. What better way than killing their partner first, and then progressing from there?

The point is, the time between their deaths doesn't really indicate anything either way when combined with the little we know.

They arrived, and left the Architect's Office in separate cars. I suspect that Honey returned home, wanting to just rest and enjoy her home. She was 70, and had arthritis. Barry, however was known for working late in his labs. I think it is quite logical that he returned to work ( are there any ways to determine when he was at Apotec ? ), and came home a few hours later. The killer(s) may not have had any choice but to wait for him to return. If it was a hit, they may have been sent to kill them both, because Honey knew too much about Barry's work, or whatever the reason might have been that would cause a high level hit to be ordered,or even if revenge was the motive. It would also be easier to pick them off one at a time, and it was well known that they did not have staff in the house at night. It is hard to say when the killer(s) might have entered the house, because it is a big house, and maybe they could easily have hidden in the garage/pool area for a few hours with no one finding them. I kept thinking --- how could they enter, and leave the house unseen, because some of the neighbours must have had outside security cameras, or maybe just someone jogging or walking a dog might have seen them. What if they came hidden in a car or van that had reason to be there that day, and leave later ? I am thinking of any household staff, or even a realtor or someone staging the house ? Could anyone like that have come perhaps during the day, parked in the garage, and left later ? If they did hijack Honey's car, and forced her to drive them to the house, then let them in, could they make sure the car was parked in such a way so as to block any outside cameras from seeing them ? Either they were really familiar with the property, and for some reason had been there many times, or they scoped it out very well before. This is of course all just speculation. IMO

 

[DarkSkink]

I also think along these lines…this was personal…this was intended to pack a personal punch before death…I can almost hear the dialogue. (I won’t go into what I imagine was spoken). This was a ‘hurtful” hit. JMOO I am a sensitive too

All that is the stuff of TV and crime novels though. There are better ways to send a message, or get away with it, or have your way with victims.

What is most telling for me is that it took homicide 2 days to get involved, right after the family basically told LE that 'No, it's not a murder suicide.'.

I can't recall such an absurd event in a "murder" case previously. I have seen families publicly complain before, but never such a snap to it, ramp it up response from LE. Get the fire trucks. Get the pumper trucks. Bring in the big guns. The family told us we were wrong.

I'll gladly eat my words if someone is charged, but if ultimately LE announces it was a murder/suicide like originally thought, they just opened themselves up to a lot of criticism. Tess Richey's family should be following this closely. LE should not even be giving the appearance of pandering to the wealthy class, let alone actually doing it.

 

[DarkSkink]

I am sorry, but all these fantasy thingoes are a little much.

Any sort of over the top gore can be debated as to it's necessity, but theorizing about hits or staged murders can lead to websites and information like the one presented previously.

Although uncomfortable, opposing or out of the box opinions do help and possibly expose weaknesses in your own opinions.

People not on WS may think even being on WS is ghoulish and a little much. Perspective. It is a crime website, and unfortunaelty, the details of crime aren't nice.

 

[Skullz]

If they had Day staff. Why weren't they discovered on Thursday?
Getting in there would have been easy.
Leaving undetected would have been the trick.
As for layout of the house. Real estate firm had and maybe still does have pics of whole place.
LE asked nicely for neighbors security footage. If they don't move quick on getting video coverage it will soon be over written by recent days video streams.
Logically the best way to exit . Would have been on foot thru rear instead of vehicles driving by which then adds another accomplice.
He had lots of enemies and trying to snuggle a pill for medical marijuana would have pissed BIG PHARMA right off. He had the government cronies to get him in the door with a medical marijuana pill. Nobody can patent the plant but he would have found a way just like he did making knock offs of popular drugs.

 

[human]

If BS killed HS accidentally in a fit of rage, then why did he not pull into the garage, put her body in there, and drive to kill himself such as ramming into a concrete structure at 90 miles an hour? The crime would be covered up then

 

[DarkSkink]

If BS killed HS accidentally in a fit of rage, then why did he not pull into the garage, put her body in there, and drive to kill himself such as ramming into a concrete structure at 90 miles an hour? The crime would be covered up then

That would be painful, and no guarantee that you would die. Imagine waking up in a hospital with amputations or paralyzed.

 

[Sanz]

News Interview with former FBI agent Brad Garrett, on the mystery of the Sherman deaths.
Garrett has been an investigator on big murder cases during the last 15 years.

"'Happened for a reason': Mystery grows in death of Toronto billionaires"
https://youtu.be/gy3jspjrWM8

This video was previously posted however I can't find the original post to share that link. It's worth the watch.


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[human]

That would be painful, and no guarantee that you would die. Imagine waking up in a hospital with amputations or paralyzed.

I don’t think anyone could survive a 90 mile an hour crash into a concrete abutment.

 

[DarkSkink]

News Interview with former FBI agent Brad Garrett, on the mystery of the Sherman deaths.
Garrett has been an investigator on big murder cases during the last 15 years.

"'Happened for a reason': Mystery grows in death of Toronto billionaires"
https://youtu.be/gy3jspjrWM8

This video was previously posted however I can't find the original post to share that link. It's worth the watch.


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He's an articulate and intelligent interview. His insight is wasted here though, because it's a dumb interview.

They completely ignore the "muder-suicide" declaration, and the subsequent family complaint.

It's almost as though they called him up, told him there was a murder, and he has no clue it could've been a murder-suicide. He finishes off talking about how it hinges on how good the "bad guys" were. No, there is much more to it.

I think the interview would have been much different had he known about the murder-suicide theory. Had they asked if that was a possibility, he could have expanded on that too and probably would have qualified the bad guys part, rather than speaking in certainties.

It's either a bit of underhanded sensationalism by the station, or a lack of thorough investigation and reporting due to inexperience or negligence.

Not to jump on the fake news bandwagon, but it begs the question if there is any connection between the Shermans and anyone of influence at the station. They are basically reporting it was a double homicide, without directly saying it. Why set this poor guy up to make that narrative for you? Homicide detectives have taken over the investigation and have called the deaths suspicious. She chooses her words carefully, and excludes everything up to that point. He is essentially giving an opinion that is not fully informed.

 

[DarkSkink]

I don’t think anyone could survive a 90 mile an hour crash into a concrete abutment.

Would you bet your life on it?

Would that be your choice? Would you want to be pulled over with a body in your vehicle before you got to this abutment? Could you guarantee you wouldn't hit a bump and slam into it sideways? Could you guarantee the airbag wouldn't interfere?

How long would you drive around with a dead body in the passenger seat looking for the perfect abutment with a long run up to it so you can achieve the right speed? You have one chance at it, with fractions of seconds to aim, and you're 75 years old with glasses.

 

[DarkSkink]

I don’t think anyone could survive a 90 mile an hour crash into a concrete abutment.

Rather than drive around, why not just leave the vehicle running in the garage?

 

[flourish]

Rather than drive around, why not just leave the vehicle running in the garage?

Not as reliable as it used to be. Also, huge garage.

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