Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #4

[otto]

I have been searching for precedents concerning police releasing their findings while a private investigation is ongoing.

Has anyone found anything on this subject?

Because of the tremendous pressure (in my opinion) on the T.P.S., I think it will be quite awhile before the T.P.S. makes any statement. I do realize that their investigation is still active as well and they have not released the house yet.

Also, I was reading again how long toxicology results can take and why.

I found this statement by forensic toxicologist Dwain C. Fuller (from below article) very interesting:

“There’s a phenomena called post-mortem redistribution that actually takes place after you die,” Fuller explained. The concentration of drugs in any given part of the body can fluctuate as the drugs move around after death."

"The central cavity of the body, where the heart and lungs sit, can rise quite a bit in drug concentration – making it harder to determine what happened. If urine is available, Fuller said that’s also a useful specimen."

“It’s basically like drugs and water in a way, because they don’t have that matrix of all the proteins and stuff,” he said. Sometimes they’ll use other specimens like livers or brains, but much rarely these days.

"As a backup for confirmation, they’ll use vitreous humor – the fluid inside the eye, which is mostly sequestered from post-mortem distribution. “Problem is, there’s just very little of it, so we have to use it sparingly,” he said."



https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...-barry-sherman-how-do-police-investigate.html

The wife had throat cancer and arthritis, so she was probably on several medications. We haven't heard about illnesses in the husband.

I would expect that if drugs were used in the murder, they would have been lethal and there would be no need for strangulation. Toxicology might tell us about medications, but it won't change the cause of death by ligature neck compression to poisoning.

 

[Tortoise]

Thanks for the link, Otto.

Maybe it's just me but I have a problem with newspapers quoting "police sources" since there are no direct quotes from the police.

It is also possible that there was a correct source who possibly stating they are looking at everything, including murder-suicide. The paper may have just run with the "murder-suicide" theory without mentioning other theories the police were looking at.

I have such a strong critical view to the choice of words in any article and how they are used to support a specific headline.

"Police sources" could be anyone not directly involved in the investigation.

I appreciate what you are saying, Otto. I just have too many questions about who these "sources" are, were they given correct or incorrect information and more importantly, did they only state one theory over others? Or did the newspaper only run with one of the theories they were advised about.

I take the words "sources" and "police sources" in newspaper articles with a grain of salt. That's just my opinion and view.

I agree.

The other point of course is that this hidden source is cited using the word "possibility".

 

[zencompass]

Would the post mortem examinations reveal a possible time of death connected to their stomach contents?

I am thinking about stages of digestion and when this process halted at time of death.

 

[MistyWaters]

Strangulation, the layman's term for ligature neck compression, is as common as stabbing.

The category is "strangulation, suffocation or drowning". 4 spousal murder-suicides in 10 years, for all we know all 4 were caused by drowning or suffocation. IMO those stats don't support any conclusion whatsoever.

All indications, the way in which the bodies were found rightly roused cause for "suspicion".

"........."I think if you canvassed 100 homicide detectives in North America, you'd be hard pressed to find very many of us who said they ever dealt with a double suicide where the mechanism of death was hanging," he said. "I find that sort of the least-palatable resolution."........

.....It's [a] very unusual, very unusual way to commit homicide," he said. "Where you have this wonderful couple, standing members of the community, are somehow both dead from a ligature compression of the neck. It's bizarre."....."

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/barry-sherman-honey-sherman-homicide-deaths-1.4456170

 

[gregjrichards]

Would the post mortem examinations reveal a possible time of death connected to their stomach contents?

Yes they can give a rough time frame from how food is digested.

 

[otto]

Thanks for the link, Otto.

Maybe it's just me but I have a problem with newspapers quoting "police sources" since there are no direct quotes from the police.

It is also possible that there was a correct source who possibly stating they are looking at everything, including murder-suicide. The paper may have just run with the "murder-suicide" theory without mentioning other theories the police were looking at.

I have such a strong critical view to the choice of words in any article and how they are used to support a specific headline.

"Police sources" could be anyone not directly involved in the investigation.

I appreciate what you are saying, Otto. I just have too many questions about who these "sources" are, were they given correct or incorrect information and more importantly, did they only state one theory over others? Or did the newspaper only run with one of the theories they were advised about.

I take the words "sources" and "police sources" in newspaper articles with a grain of salt. That's just my opinion and view.

It is very common for police sources to be quoted, and I see no reason to doubt all information supplied by police sources. Here are a few examples, and I could provide another hundred quickly and easily.

"As investigations continue into the Vaughan bank hostage-taking earlier this week, police sources tell Global News the suspect was carrying a fake gun and explosives."​

https://globalnews.ca/news/3920497/...e-taking-carried-fake-weapons-police-sources/

"Police were seen canvassing the cul-de-sac Saturday morning, and the crime scene was later extended from the doorstep of the Shepherds of Good Hope to include a two-block stretch of Murray Street, east of King Edward.

Police sources confirmed blood was found in the cul-de-sac."​

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/local...n-part-of-king-edward-closed-saturday-morning

"Police said Sunday that the investigation is ongoing, but it’s believed the suspect — named by police sources as Abdulahi Hasan Sharif — acted alone."​

http://edmontonsun.com/2017/10/01/e...live/wcm/7da0e6cb-0b38-4b6f-8b30-19a01eacb969

"Channel 5 Belize said that the ex-pat — known only as John — disappeared Saturday. Police sources said he has been charged for an unrelated burglary in another town."​

http://torontosun.com/2017/05/04/po...eath/wcm/015c4669-cb91-41a2-a672-e231604d6fc1

 

[zencompass]

I apologize, Otto, if my posts were contentious. That was not my intent.

 

[otto]

Would the post mortem examinations reveal a possible time of death connected to their stomach contents?

I am thinking about stages of digestion and when this process halted at time of death.

It could, but food digestion is an unreliable method for determining time of death because it gives a window of time. Furthermore, unless it is known when they last ate, digestion doesn't mean anything.

 

[Grey-St]

Strangulation, the layman's term for ligature neck compression, is as common as stabbing.

Strangulation may not mean ligature neck compression. It likely mean manual neck compression. Often classified as simply "neck compression" as COD, as in the Tess Richey case.

I would wonder if ligature neck compression is actually anywhere on that statistical list.

 

[otto]

I apologize, Otto, if my posts were contentious. That was not my intent.

No need to apologize. There have been many comments here suggesting that when police sources are cited, they should not be trusted. Given that police sources are commonly cited in most news articles related to police investigations and are typically accepted as valid, I'm a bit surprised that in this particular case police sources are all of a sudden considered nonsense.

 

[otto]

Strangulation may not mean ligature neck compression. It likely mean manual neck compression. Often classified as simply "neck compression" as COD, as in the Tess Richey case.

I would wonder if ligature neck compression is actually anywhere on that statistical list.

Actually, "ligature = a thing used for tying or binding something tightly."
Strangulation is the layman's term for this cause of death.

 

[Grey-St]

Thanks for the link, Otto.

Maybe it's just me but I have a problem with newspapers quoting "police sources" since there are no direct quotes from the police.

It is also possible that there was a correct source who possibly stating they are looking at everything, including murder-suicide. The paper may have just run with the "murder-suicide" theory without mentioning other theories the police were looking at.

I have such a strong critical view to the choice of words in any article and how they are used to support a specific headline.

"Police sources" could be anyone not directly involved in the investigation.

I appreciate what you are saying, Otto. I just have too many questions about who these "sources" are, were they given correct or incorrect information and more importantly, did they only state one theory over others? Or did the newspaper only run with one of the theories they were advised about.

I take the words "sources" and "police sources" in newspaper articles with a grain of salt. That's just my opinion and view.

rbbm. It's important to do so, imo. I'm with you on all of this.

 

[JDG]

Otto, I didn't bring the whole quote thing down here.

I did read that BS had had prostate cancer a decade or so ago. So both had experienced bouts of cancer but were treated and considered cured. Not aware of anything else but it doesn't mean there weren't other drugs in their lives. Given their ages, other pills wouldn't be surprising. As for arthritis meds, depends on what kind of arthritis. I thought she had had multiple surgeries to maintain mobility. IMO

 

[Grey-St]

We've had that debate in this discussion thread from beginning. Most people, and I mean people who read the news rather than people on this forum, accept police sources as a valid source of information. Here, there seems to be an expectation that the police office's name, rank, and role be provided, that if that officer's name is not included the information must be false. I'm not sure why anyone would refuse to accept information from police sources, but it cannot be said that police have not confirmed that they are investigating the deaths as a murder-suicide. According to police, that is exactly what they are doing.

Well people on this forum follow the news with much more scrutiny and vested interest, and therefore know better.

No one has stated that the information must be false, just that it should be taken with a grain of salt. With a bit of common sense and specialized interest and knowledge like those here on WS, we know that in a thorough investigation, all MOD's will be explored.

 

[otto]

Otto, I didn't bring the whole quote thing down here.

I did read that BS had had prostate cancer a decade or so ago. So both had experienced bouts of cancer but were treated and considered cured. Not aware of anything else but it doesn't mean there weren't other drugs in their lives. Given their ages, other pills wouldn't be surprising. As for arthritis meds, depends on what kind of arthritis. I thought she had had multiple surgeries to maintain mobility. IMO

I don't know about their health histories, just what I've skimmed in the news - because I trust what I read in the news. My only point is that the cause of death has already been determined, so I doubt that knowing which medications were in their systems will add anything to what we already know.

 

[Grey-St]

It is very common for police sources to be quoted, and I see no reason to doubt all information supplied by police sources. Here are a few examples, and I could provide another hundred quickly and easily.

"As investigations continue into the Vaughan bank hostage-taking earlier this week, police sources tell Global News the suspect was carrying a fake gun and explosives."​

https://globalnews.ca/news/3920497/...e-taking-carried-fake-weapons-police-sources/

"Police were seen canvassing the cul-de-sac Saturday morning, and the crime scene was later extended from the doorstep of the Shepherds of Good Hope to include a two-block stretch of Murray Street, east of King Edward.

Police sources confirmed blood was found in the cul-de-sac."​

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/local...n-part-of-king-edward-closed-saturday-morning

"Police said Sunday that the investigation is ongoing, but it’s believed the suspect — named by police sources as Abdulahi Hasan Sharif — acted alone."​

http://edmontonsun.com/2017/10/01/e...live/wcm/7da0e6cb-0b38-4b6f-8b30-19a01eacb969

"Channel 5 Belize said that the ex-pat — known only as John — disappeared Saturday. Police sources said he has been charged for an unrelated burglary in another town."​

http://torontosun.com/2017/05/04/po...eath/wcm/015c4669-cb91-41a2-a672-e231604d6fc1

Of course quoting police sources is common practice, the media eats it up, especially when little information is provided by LE. No one's saying source information is 100% always false, either, just that one should remain cognizant of where the information is coming from and how its being reported.

What's different in the case, is that the source failed to mention the other MOD's that are likely being explored in a thorough investigation. Then the media ran with it, and it has created what it has.

 

[otto]

<modsnip>

I hope we can agree that ligature neck compression does not mean hands used to cause compression, as suggested upthread.

We know it is neck compression, and by definition strangulation is neck compression. We know that a ligature was used, and by definition that means something other than hands.

"Strangulation / hanging

Definition: external pressure on neck resulting in compression of blood vessels and occasionally airway

Strangulation: neck compression due to something other than the victim's body weight, such as manual compression or ligature tightened by assailant; usually homicidal"

http://www.pathologyoutlines.com/topic/forensicsasphyxia.html

 

[MistyWaters]

Strangulation may not mean ligature neck compression. It likely mean manual neck compression. Often classified as simply "neck compression" as COD, as in the Tess Richey case.

I would wonder if ligature neck compression is actually anywhere on that statistical list.

On that topic, just recalling this quote:

"......The pathological term means either death from hanging or strangulation with a ligature. Former homicide investigators told the Star on Monday that marks on the neck can allow pathologists to make the distinction between manual strangulation and the use of a cord of some kind, like a rope.

“These causes of death can be seen in homicides and suicides and rarely accidents,” said Christopher Milroy, director of forensic pathology at the Ottawa Hospital, who is not involved in the Sherman investigation.

“Hanging is normally a suicide. Ligature strangulation is most commonly seen in homicides, but may be seen in other manners of death,” he said..."
https://www.thestar.com/news/crime/...be-what-happened-inside-50-old-colony-rd.html

 

[Power of Two]

The link below worthwhile watching. The bungling of the TPS is documented within and there is also input from Joe Warmington from the Toronto Sun, both of whom are in the spotlight in the Sherman case. Those of us on WS who followed the Tim Bosma and Laura Babcock murder cases are still reeling from the sick and convoluted details of their murders and await a third trial in 2018 connected to one of their murderers regarding his own father. My point being, I am not surprised that the TPS is minding their Ps&Qs on the Sherman case given how badly they dropped the ball for Laura, and subsequently Tim.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSQnVSyRFOg

 

[Grey-St]

I hope we can agree that ligature neck compression does not mean hands used to cause compression, as suggested upthread.

We know it is neck compression, and by definition strangulation is neck compression. We know that a ligature was used, and by definition that means something other than hands.

"Strangulation / hanging

Definition: external pressure on neck resulting in compression of blood vessels and occasionally airway

Strangulation: neck compression due to something other than the victim's body weight, such as manual compression or ligature tightened by assailant; usually homicidal"

http://www.pathologyoutlines.com/topic/forensicsasphyxia.html

Yes, we can agree on the first line of your post.

My point is, when dealing with COD, under the umbrella of "strangulation", neck compression and ligature neck compression are two different classifications.