Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #4

[AllyJane]

The police have asked neighbours for video. I think part of the delay is that it was the holidays and many neighbours were away.

 

[Grey-St]

Or, they have determined the MOD and are simply gathering and documenting additional corroborating evidence.

I have previously posted hypothetical reasons
to justify a conclusion of a murder suicide. For those who believe this is a double murder, I would be interested in your views on who you think are the most likely suspects, and your thoughts on the odds of each party having committed or caused this crime.

rbbm. If they have determined MOD, we would know.

If they have concluded murder-suicide, this investigation would be closed, with maybe a statement of "this investigation has concluded, please respect the families privacy at this time". There's nothing else to investigate, they don't have to find out why. If they have concluded double-murder, they would release a statement classifying this as a double-homicide and that "the investigation is ongoing". They don't have to wait to lay charges or even have a person of interest.

This leads me to believe they are still investigating MOD. Jmo.

 

[AddyFinch]

The police do not owe the public any kind of explanation. They will say something along the lines of 'the case has been closed', 'its an ongoing investigation' or something similar.

If murder, I think the police do have an onus to tell, acting on behalf of "public safety", but it would be a vague statement. But the private investigators answer only to the family, and if they decide it was murder, then they would be obligated to notify the TPS plus the family. They also are obligated to turn over any evidence if found, to the TPS.
Guarding the crime scene is a matter of fact, there is no getting around it until they are finished. (Can't believe that woman delivering flowers just walked under the tape in the driveway!)
In answer to the question re use of Auxillaries to guard scene to save $$ and free up uniformed cops... "police association would be ticked". And not to be forgotten, some of those "guarding shifts" could be pay duty shifts. (cops days off, picking up extra shifts).
Since I am "just leaning" over the fence, I will say for certain IMHO... the Sherman children did not do this, nor arrange for it to be done.
As to the art... ach, art is subjective When crime scene is released, the executors will need to hire private security for this place asap.

 

[JDG]

If murder, I think the police do have an onus to tell, acting on behalf of "public safety", but it would be a vague statement. But the private investigators answer only to the family, and if they decide it was murder, then they would be obligated to notify the TPS plus the family. They also are obligated to turn over any evidence if found, to the TPS.
Guarding the crime scene is a matter of fact, there is no getting around it until they are finished. (Can't believe that woman delivering flowers just walked under the tape in the driveway!)
In answer to the question re use of Auxillaries to guard scene to save $$ and free up uniformed cops... "police association would be ticked". And not to be forgotten, some of those "guarding shifts" could be pay duty shifts. (cops days off, picking up extra shifts).
Since I am "just leaning" over the fence, I will say for certain IMHO... the Sherman children did not do this, nor arrange for it to be done.
As to the art... ach, art is subjective When crime scene is released, the executors will need to hire private security for this place asap.

There is no risk to public safety. Therefore, they owe the public nada. IMO

 

[ldlager]

This is just my opinion. I feel that when two people have been killed in such a grotesque way, there are many family members who are grief stricken and horrified, it may be better to let the police get on with it.

For us to act like its a game of Clue, just seems wrong to me, on so many levels. Imagine if this was YOUR family??

Someone YOU loved? I think we can surmise and sleuth about anything that is MSM but beyond that, IMO, its not the thing to do. IMO

I could be wrong but its how I feel.

JDG there is no right or wrong answer. And I am sure that none of the posters on this site in any way minimize the pain inflicted on the family by this tragedy. But this site is websleuth

 

[ldlager]

The site is called websleuths and I think reasonable active participation in the site can involve more than simply commenting on what has already been reported in MSM. Just my opinion.

 

[cluciano63]

LE absolutely will make a statement if this is determined to have been a double murder. Possibly not, if murder-suicide is the final determination.

 

[Veeduck]

I had hoped TPS would give an update at the 30-day mark, but still no word from them. Hopefully we will get some official statement from one or more of the following soon:

1. When police release the crime scene and Tom Klatts is finally given access to the house, (though he’ll probably be as reticent to speak publicly as the police have been).

2. When toxicology results are ready in another 4-6 weeks, (though we’re still waiting on the tox results for Tom Petty’s death last October).

3. When DNA samples from the victims, their cars, and house - as well as anyone who is known to have been in their cars or house recently - have been analyzed and compared, (though it will take many additional weeks or months, if not longer).

4. When all other types of physical evidence (prints, fiber, hair, etc.) from the victim's cars and house has been catalogued and thoroughly examined, (though most or all of it will be withheld until a suspect is in custody or Barry’s supposed suicide is confirmed).

5. When security camera videos have been viewed and investigated, (though even if any useful info is obtained, it could be held back for months or years).

6. When TPS finds whatever object it was looking for (missing key?) on the roof and in the nearby storm sewers, (though we don't know if it even exists).

7. When TPS is able to get the presumed UNSUB to crack under interrogation, or his guilty conscience compels him to come forward, (though this, of course, may never happen).

8. When any witness or witnesses collect the courage to volunteer previously unknown information, (no telling when or if that happens, but at least the victim's family will be able to offer a very substantial reward in this case).

Any Ws members, especially those with investigative background, please feel free to add to this far from comprehensive list.

 

[Grey-St]

There is no risk to public safety. Therefore, they owe the public nada. IMO

If LE concludes that this is a double-homicide, they are obligated to inform the public. Risk to public safety, or not.

 

[Grey-St]

I had hoped TPS would give an update at the 30-day mark, but still no word from them. Hopefully we will get some official statement from one or more of the following soon:

1. When police release the crime scene and Tom Klatts is finally given access to the house, (though he’ll probably be as reticent to speak publicly as the police have been).

2. When toxicology results are ready in another 4-6 weeks, (though we’re still waiting on the tox results for Tom Petty’s death last October).

3. When DNA samples from the victims, their cars, and house - as well as anyone who is known to have been in their cars or house recently - have been analyzed and compared, (though it will take many additional weeks or months, if not longer).

4. When all other types of physical evidence (prints, fiber, hair, etc.) from the victim's cars and house has been catalogued and thoroughly examined, (though most or all of it will be withheld until a suspect is in custody or Barry’s supposed suicide is confirmed).

5. When security camera videos have been viewed and investigated, (though even if any useful info is obtained, it could be held back for months or years).

6. When TPS finds whatever object it was looking for (missing key?) on the roof and in the nearby storm sewers, (though we don't know if it even exists).

7. When TPS is able to get the presumed UNSUB to crack under interrogation, or his guilty conscience compels him to come forward, (though this, of course, may never happen).

8. When any witness or witnesses collect the courage to volunteer previously unknown information, (no telling when or if that happens, but at least the victim's family will be able to offer a very substantial reward in this case).

Any Ws members, especially those with investigative background, please feel free to add to this far from comprehensive list.

Unfortunately, none of these actions will be given a public statement by LE. They are not obligated to comment on the specifics of their investigation. The only time this information becomes available, is when a case goes to trial. Even family members are unaware of these details until a trial commences, or a case is closed. They may be updated on toxicology results.

The only obligation LE has to give a public statement, is when COD is concluded, in the case of homicide- when MOD is concluded, when there is a person of interest and they require the public's assistance, or there's a risk to public safety, when an arrest warrant is issued, when an arrest is made and charges laid, or when a case is closed.

We very well may know when the crime scene is released, because we will figure it out, or the media will report on it. I don't believe it requires a public statement, however.

 

[zencompass]

From article ( below):

"The family of Barry and Honey Sherman have hired a pathologist to conduct a second autopsy on their bodies, CTV News Toronto has learned."

https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/sherman-family-hires-pathologist-to-perform-second-autopsy-1.3734463

 

[JayFriend]

The police do not owe the public any kind of explanation. They will say something along the lines of 'the case has been closed', 'its an ongoing investigation' or something similar.

The family MAY be told some information but they will also have the right to privacy if certain things prove to be true.

In view of how uncommunicative they've been since the very beginning, other than the murder/suicide theory leak and the "no public danger" pronouncement, I cannot see them then abandoning the crime scene with no explanation. During most high profile crime investigations there have been a series of press conferences, but here.... crickets.

 

[otto]

Illness in things such as cancer.

My question is what reasons have been given when other elderly people kill their spouse. And I am elderly so no need to do any snarky comments

Stats Can link is posted in the first couple of pages of this thread.

 

[zencompass]

Not the OP, but yes, they did.

Thank you LexiinToronto,

I've been away from the threads. Just catching up now.

"The family of Barry and Honey Sherman have hired a pathologist to conduct a second autopsy on their bodies, CTV News Toronto has learned."

https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/sherman-f...opsy-1.3734463

 

[otto]

Interestingly, I have been the lead Detective on a couple of murder / suicide cases and I am aware of the finer details of others too and I have to say that hanging or ligature compression has NEVER been in play in these ones .
That’s not to say it cannot happen but it is most unusual and less likely than other methods used


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Strangulation, the layman's term for ligature neck compression, is as common as stabbing.

 

[otto]

That's really strange, because LE never actually made that statement.

Repeating something doesn't make it true. Police confirmed that they were investigating the possibility that it was a murder-suicide.

"Officially, Toronto police have released little information about the deaths, beyond that they were deemed suspicious. But police sources confirm to the Star that police are now probing the possibility that they were a murder-suicide."

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...gating-death-of-billionaire-and-his-wife.html

 

[zencompass]

Thanks for the link, Otto.

Maybe it's just me but I have a problem with newspapers quoting "police sources" since there are no direct quotes from the police.

It is also possible that there was a correct source who possibly stating they are looking at everything, including murder-suicide. The paper may have just run with the "murder-suicide" theory without mentioning other theories the police were looking at.

I have such a strong critical view to the choice of words in any article and how they are used to support a specific headline.

"Police sources" could be anyone not directly involved in the investigation.

I appreciate what you are saying, Otto. I just have too many questions about who these "sources" are, were they given correct or incorrect information and more importantly, did they only state one theory over others? Or did the newspaper only run with one of the theories they were advised about.

I take the words "sources" and "police sources" in newspaper articles with a grain of salt. That's just my opinion and view.

 

[zencompass]

Thank you, Otto, for showing that not only the Toronto Sun newspaper but the Toronto Star wrote about sources advising them.

I hadn't read about the sources in the Toronto Star.

 

[otto]

Thanks for the link, Otto.

Maybe it's just me but I have a problem with newspapers quoting "police sources" since there are no direct quotes from the police.

It is also possible that there was a correct source who possibly stating they are looking at everything, including murder-suicide. The paper may have just run with the "murder-suicide" theory without mentioning other theories the police were looking at.

I have such a strong critical view to the choice of words in any article and how they are used to support a specific headline.

"Police sources" could be anyone not directly involved in the investigation.

I appreciate what you are saying, Otto. I just have too many questions about who these "sources" are, were they given correct or incorrect information and more importantly, did they only state one theory over others? Or did the newspaper only run with one of the theories they were advised about.

I take the words "sources" and "police sources" in newspaper articles with a grain of salt. That's just my opinion and view.

We've had that debate in this discussion thread from beginning. Most people, and I mean people who read the news rather than people on this forum, accept police sources as a valid source of information. Here, there seems to be an expectation that the police office's name, rank, and role be provided, that if that officer's name is not included the information must be false. I'm not sure why anyone would refuse to accept information from police sources, but it cannot be said that police have not confirmed that they are investigating the deaths as a murder-suicide. According to police, that is exactly what they are doing.

 

[zencompass]

I have been searching for precedents concerning police releasing their findings while a private investigation is ongoing.

Has anyone found anything on this subject?

Because of the tremendous pressure (in my opinion) on the T.P.S., I think it will be quite awhile before the T.P.S. makes any statement. I do realize that their investigation is still active as well and they have not released the house yet.

Also, I was reading again how long toxicology results can take and why.

I found this statement by forensic toxicologist Dwain C. Fuller (from below article) very interesting:

“There’s a phenomena called post-mortem redistribution that actually takes place after you die,” Fuller explained. The concentration of drugs in any given part of the body can fluctuate as the drugs move around after death."

"The central cavity of the body, where the heart and lungs sit, can rise quite a bit in drug concentration – making it harder to determine what happened. If urine is available, Fuller said that’s also a useful specimen."

“It’s basically like drugs and water in a way, because they don’t have that matrix of all the proteins and stuff,” he said. Sometimes they’ll use other specimens like livers or brains, but much rarely these days.

"As a backup for confirmation, they’ll use vitreous humor – the fluid inside the eye, which is mostly sequestered from post-mortem distribution. “Problem is, there’s just very little of it, so we have to use it sparingly,” he said."



https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...-barry-sherman-how-do-police-investigate.html