I am convinced that it was double murder.The two coroners agreed on the wrist marks and that swayed me.It implies to me that they were restrained together and Honey was held longer because she got home first.If they were killed separately there was no need for restraint.Someone sure had a hate on for them.
Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #7
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Grey-St
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Sorry, I'm a little behind here today!What's your theory Grey-St? Do you think it was double murder? Any ideas for motive?
Hired hitman/men? or someone close to them?
Would very much appreciate your theories/thoughts about this case.
I do believe they were both murdered. I believe it's the most logical explanation, and definitely felt this in my gut early on. I stayed on the fence and *tried* to kept an open mind until I heard it from LE, though.
The possibilities in terms of who, what, why is truly endless. I had a few theories I was holding, but as the weeks have gone on, the wires have crossed in my brain. All I know is I believe whoever did this felt very wronged by him/them.
Great list.
Yes this is a strong possibility regarding the money if we go back to the double murder theory.
But if I had to go back that way, then Im inclined to believe it was someone in the family or extremely close to the family with easy access to the home.
The 4 kids and their spouses would have had easy access to the home and would stand to inherit a lot of money and power.
Honey was a target; why was there a need to kill her too? If it really was a double murder, it was someone very close to the family not a business associate. Why kill Honey too? Why in their private home? And Why not just shoot and leave?
Why strangle them?
No one is considering close family members who would have had access to that home. This would include the 4 children and their spouses.
They stand to gain a lot of money and power.
Who are the spouses?
How was the relationship with the son in laws and Honey and Barry?
For me to consider that this a double murder,
I would have to then consider it was a close family member who stood to gain a lot of money with their deaths and who had easy access to the home, who knew their routines and who despised both Honey and Barry.
I had wondered same thing, ie perhaps TPS knew (from the first autopsy findings) that it was a double murder, however they wanted to keep it secret for investigative purposes, so they went with the flow of what was already 'out there', being stated all over MSM - didn't say it was MM, but also didn't correct the wide-range perception and continued reporting that it was a M/S.
But then I corrected any such thoughts, because there's just no way TPS could/would have allowed MSM to continue thrashing BS's name all over MSM, suggesting he was a murderer. They can't say they're not seeking suspects, and at the same time believe it was a double murder. It seems like they just royally screwed up (or the pathologist did), only to be corrected when the independent, second autopsies were performed.
Considering that police made statements to MSM (on Friday, the very same day the bodies were found), before autopsies were performed (on Saturday, the following day), that they were not seeking any outstanding suspect(s), for me, it begs to understand how much the pathologist's findings are influenced by police perceptions and direction. (A horrible thought.)
Interesting that the latest article states that in the independent second set of autopsies, the pathologist determined they were likely not strangled with the belts, but with something else, and then hung with the belts afterward. It would be awfully difficult for a dead person to stage his own hanging with a belt after he's already dead by strangulation with something else?
https://www.thestar.com/news/canada...d-from-murder-suicide-to-double-homicide.html
Article Dec.15/17 (before autopsies)
http://nationalpost.com/pmn/news-pm...ound-dead-police-call-the-deaths-suspicious-2
Grey-St
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It doesn't have to be a "very close family member" for someone to feel deeply wronged by both BS and HS. As a couple, they held a great deal of power. They support each other in their decision making. They represent each other. Even if BS was the main target, HS could have needed to go as well. Maybe she knew something? Maybe she could have easily led LE to possible suspects?
I feel for their children and extended family. This must be torturous.
Grey-St
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I'm so agreeing with this. I actually do believe that TPS screwed up. How do you make any such statement before an autopsy is conducted? Before any actually investigation has commenced? They did the same thing with Tess Richey. It blows my mind.
I am surprised that we have not heard anything about suspected time of death (at least I haven't seen anything yet). The couple had a meeting on the Wed evening, and their bodies were found around 11am on the Friday morning, which is only a span of about 40 hours.
There were apparently people working in the home earlier than that on the Friday morning, unaware of the scene downstairs. A housekeeper and a plant-waterer (according to reporter Kevin Donovan) show up on the Friday morning, so that span is less than 40 hours.... but who would have known which days these assistants were scheduled to work or not work? Likely nobody (except possibly the housekeeper herself?), not even the victims' immediate family members.
To have any expectation of escaping undetected, the killer(s) would have to have had it all done on the Wed night and be out of there no later than the early hours of Thursday (imho). I wonder what kind of activity the neighbourhood cameras show in the area on the Wed evening and throughout the night?.. and even throughout the day on the Wed? The killer could have waited until both were gone from the house on the Wed, and then somehow gained entry and waited.
There were apparently people working in the home earlier than that on the Friday morning, unaware of the scene downstairs. A housekeeper and a plant-waterer (according to reporter Kevin Donovan) show up on the Friday morning, so that span is less than 40 hours.... but who would have known which days these assistants were scheduled to work or not work? Likely nobody (except possibly the housekeeper herself?), not even the victims' immediate family members.
To have any expectation of escaping undetected, the killer(s) would have to have had it all done on the Wed night and be out of there no later than the early hours of Thursday (imho). I wonder what kind of activity the neighbourhood cameras show in the area on the Wed evening and throughout the night?.. and even throughout the day on the Wed? The killer could have waited until both were gone from the house on the Wed, and then somehow gained entry and waited.
Actually what Kerry Winter and his family went through is 1 billion times more torturous (and are still going through.) They were small dependant orphaned children; Kerry was 4, oldest brother was 7 and the others were toddlers.
There is no comparison to what the Winter family went through in comparison these much Older wealthy adult children in 30s and 40s are going through now.
Perhaps if Barry had led a more honest, respectable way of doing business and had more respect for the laws of the universe this wouldnt have happened? I think his luck of 50 years ran out. I think they were rather lucky to carry on this way for 50 years well into 70s.
Karma?
I don’t understand why what the Winter kids went through has anything to do with how the Sherman kids feel. We could choose any kids and the tragedy of parental loss.
The Winter kids were unlikely to receive any grief therapy and I magine their unresolved mental health issues led to the self medicating.
No amount of money will fix internal issues
The Winter kids were unlikely to receive any grief therapy and I magine their unresolved mental health issues led to the self medicating.
No amount of money will fix internal issues
miele.m,
I don't think anyone here is minimizing the dreadful pain and agony suffered by the Winters' as young boys, when their parents died. It definitely leaves a permanent sense of insecurity in ones life, as well as many other emotions.
From what Kerry Winter has stated in public forums, media etc. I know he feels very betrayed by the Shermans and that must be almost unbearable. I can only hope that he can someday find some semblance of peace, along with his other family members.
I don't think anyone here is minimizing the dreadful pain and agony suffered by the Winters' as young boys, when their parents died. It definitely leaves a permanent sense of insecurity in ones life, as well as many other emotions.
From what Kerry Winter has stated in public forums, media etc. I know he feels very betrayed by the Shermans and that must be almost unbearable. I can only hope that he can someday find some semblance of peace, along with his other family members.
Who would the Winter orphans have sued if the executors had sold the pharma business to someone other than Barry Sherman?
With the business eventually facing insolvency after the executors were responsible for overseeing it, the business was put up for sale on the open market and another offer to purchase was received. The would-be buyers being completely unrelated, it would not have been possible for the executors to have obtained any such agreement to employ, several years down the road, certain family members of the original owner, nor tell them who their shareholders must be at which percentages, etc., had they sold the company to the other buyer instead of BS. That's just not how real life works.
That business would never have been sellable if those kind of stipulations had existed for any other party. BS made an offer which was higher than the other offer received, AND he agreed to certain things (none of which were even applicable during the time BS owned said company). There was nothing to say that BS was not ever allowed to sell that business, should it make sense for him to do so, as the business owner. The money received by the executors upon the sale of Winters' business was the fair market value of the business at the time, and *that* was the children's inheritance.
Jmo.
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/rep...family-feud-comes-to-the-fore/article1069800/
Excellent analysis. Clear and to the point,
True dat..if the Winter children were given to Barrys sister who was Jewish as required by Mrs Winter,there would have been a continued family connection to the business for tha boys.Instead they were adopted by someone who had no interest or connection and had the Trust run it.I think that decision greatly decreased the boys bargaining powers.
Possibly a number of people could have known when the housekeeper and waterer were scheduled to work that day. The kids could have known- it's possible the housekeeper came once a week, every Friday, for a number of years, to clean the house for the weekend. Maybe it was a standard appointment, especially to clean for the Sabbath? The trainer could have known, if he was at the house when they were working (note that the trainer also arrived at the house that Friday, so it's possible he trained HS every Friday, and saw the housekeeper there every Friday). Also, neighbours may have known- I know in our house, the cleaning service cleans a couple of neighbours' houses on the same day as ours, so those neighbours know that the cleaners will be at our house on that day.
Maybe even the realtor knew the schedule, not that it seemed to matter, as they showed the house to prospective clients while the housekeeper was actually there. BTW, what realtor would show a $6 mm house to prospective buyers, knowing that a housekeeper/cleaner was in the house cleaning it? You would have to shepherd the clients around the housekeeper, while certain rooms would be cleaned already, and other ones not yet cleaned. Who does that? If you as a realtor show up with clients and the cleaning lady is there cleaning the house, wouldn't you either reschedule, or at least ask the housekeeper to step outside while the house is being shown?
Don't know in this case, but it has happened in various cases, some on here.
A well known case was the Fox Lake police officer who staged his suicide to look like he was shot while courageously pursuing criminals. A massive hunt for his killers followed, until the story slowly unravelled. His motive was to die a hero, rather than be exposed for fraud and lose his job. Seems like an absurd motive to me, but I don't think LE can ever rule something out because it seems unlikely.
I also believe that homicide investigators are exceptionally cautious about what they officially state to the public. They don't consider it their job to keep the public and amateur sleuths up to date about the direction/theories behind a suspicious death. I also don't think it was their job to make an official statement denying the published rumours about murder-suicide (no one knows where they even came from), or get involved in the public relations campaign the family were waging. I can definitely see the communications department of the homicide division deciding that this was not a matter of public safety, and so to avoid a media circus for as long as possible, they would simple make no public statements at all.
But they do consider it their responsibility to inform citizens if there are public safety issues. I think that was why they immediately made official statements about no signs of breakin, so no suspects being sought. This was meant to reassure Toronto homeowners that there were no signs that other members of the public were at risk.
I wasn't aware that BS has a sister. How old would she have been at the time the children's parents died?
Would she have been in a position to adopt four boys?
Going by media reports at the time of the murders/funeral, Im only aware that Honey Sherman had a sister.
Thought Barry was an only child.
For the adoptive parents to have no connection to the Trust, set up by the parents for the children, is exactly as it should be. It also puts to rest rumours that the Barkins blew the money.
As minors, there is no bargaining powers, its all up to the terms of the Trust and the Offical Guardian. AFAIK
Maybe a legal beagle could weigh in here and confirm or correct me.
Does anyone know how LE would have (or could have) determined, on day 1, that there was no risk to the public? And how could they be so confident of that position that they would go on record saying it to the public? How would they know, at that early stage, that it wasn't, for example, a home invasion or a robbery gone wrong? This has always baffled me.
Grey-St
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I don't really think I said anything about the Winter children? This isn't their murder case? I too believe what happened to those siblings is awful, but I wasn't talking about them in this post. These wealthy adult children- their parents were murdered. Yeah, this must be pretty torturous for them in my opinion. This also isn't the "who has it worse" olympics. Awful things happened in both situations.
And for the record, you're basically implying that Kerry Winter could have done this, and it would have been warranted.
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