Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #8

[Hazel]

Your post raises some very good points. First and foremost, the pathologist is not the person that decides if a death is a murder, a suicide, or natural causes. He simply reports what he finds, and how exactly the person died. In this case we know only that the COD was ligature strangulation, but that may have been present in the case of a murder or a suicide. The Pathologist's findings need to be combined with the crime scene evidence to tell the full story.

This makes me wonder about the conclusions drawn by the independent examiner. Specifically I wonder about his findings as they relate to Honey, specifically the laceration and pooled blood. My problem with this is that we already know that Honey was murdered, either by Barry or an assailant. The key here will be what injuries were found on Barry. There has been talk that their wrists were restrained with plastic ties. I am wondering what evidence there is of that? If there were plastic ties, why were they removed? And why the need for the jackets pulled back over their arms? We have also heard talk that the strangulation may not have been from the belts, and might have been from a rope or manual strangulation. I find this very strange as well as I have seen many autopsy photos of the results of a strangulation and it is alway fairly obvious if someone was strangled by rob or by hand. The markings are distinct. I just don't see how it could possibly be one or the other?

Thank you, that's interesting, so I guess it's safe to say it was the hired "team" that agreed on mm, as if it was so obvious, it took them no time to come to the mm conclusion, right after the second autopsies by the hired pathologist.
Coincidentally, that was exactly what the people that hired them wanted to hear.

I too am curious to learn what injuries were found on Barry, if he was indeed murdered, he would have put up some fight, no? Defensive wounds in hands?
Nail scratches on face?
Where the Shermans wearing their winter gloves?
How about their cellphones, Honey's purse, Barry's glasses, car keys, etc?
So many questions, we have heard so little about the important details.
From the little we've been told, it seems the "conclusion" stems from the "wrist markings" and just lately we heard about other markings on neck, not from leather belts.

The theory is the plastic ties were removed by the alleged perp(s) to make it look like ms.
The jackets pulled back over their arms is so bizarre, the perp(s) would have been manipulating and touching their bodies and clothing so much. Surely there has to be lots of physical, dna, forensic evidence left by the assailant(s) at the scene(s).

If what they are telling us is accurate, then the perp(s) must have spent so much time in the house, first waiting for Honey to come back home, then waiting for Barry to come back home 3 hours later.
Then doing all the "clean-up" (removal of ties, moving of body(ies) to the pool area, staging as ms, disposing of ties, etc.)

Someone said the perp(s) must have come prepared, which makes me wonder if they mean the perp(s) had backpacks on.
Were the alleged perp(s) wearing adult diapers or did they bring along some kind of portable potty? After so many hours, the perp(s) surely would have needed a potty break?

 

[Lexiintoronto]

Hazel's interesting and informative post that ABro mentioned: (I had to cut and paste in order all of her post to carry over. Her post is #15 in this thread)

IMHO, these TWO articles are important, by one of the best investigative reporters.
Pay close attention to the dates.

Perhaps someone that has some free time, can make a TIMELINE of EVENTS combining both articles, including dates of search warrants, production orders, judicial authorizations, etc., and other news articles, including date of the so-called "unauthorized leak" from someone within the team of hired lawyers/PIs, etc.
With a Timeline of Events, it will be much easier to comprehend how things unfolded. It will paint a much clear picture. JMHO
To be a fly on the wall during that Monday, January 22nd, 2018 interview!

Title: Sherman investigation initially focused only on Barry’s wife Honey as a murder victim

Search warrant documents obtained by the Star shed light on the early weeks of the police probe into the deaths of the billionaire couple.






(respectfully snipped and bolded by me)

https://www.thestar.com/news/canada...lice-probed-at-first-not-barry-and-honey.html

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Title: How the investigation into the deaths of Barry and Honey Sherman turned from murder-suicide to double homicide













(respectfully snipped and bolded by me)

https://www.thestar.com/news/canada...d-from-murder-suicide-to-double-homicide.html

 

[Lexiintoronto]

I'm failing hard at copying the post. You'll have to click on her post below to take you to the original.

IMHO, these TWO articles are important, by one of the best investigative reporters.
Pay close attention to the dates.

Perhaps someone that has some free time, can make a TIMELINE of EVENTS combining both articles, including dates of search warrants, production orders, judicial authorizations, etc., and other news articles, including date of the so-called "unauthorized leak" from someone within the team of hired lawyers/PIs, etc.
With a Timeline of Events, it will be much easier to comprehend how things unfolded. It will paint a much clear picture. JMHO
To be a fly on the wall during that Monday, January 22nd, 2018 interview!

Title: Sherman investigation initially focused only on Barry’s wife Honey as a murder victim

Search warrant documents obtained by the Star shed light on the early weeks of the police probe into the deaths of the billionaire couple.






(respectfully snipped and bolded by me)

https://www.thestar.com/news/canada...lice-probed-at-first-not-barry-and-honey.html

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Title: How the investigation into the deaths of Barry and Honey Sherman turned from murder-suicide to double homicide













(respectfully snipped and bolded by me)

https://www.thestar.com/news/canada...d-from-murder-suicide-to-double-homicide.html

 

[ldlager]

All physicians have a code of ethics to follow and we have zero proof that he has failed to do so.

Oh I understand that. I didn't think I stated or even inferred that "he", (whoever "he" is), acted unethically. What I did indicate is that some/many objective observers (and even possibly some WS posters!!) could perceive Dr Chiasson as lacking impartiality and objectivity in this matter, in view of the terms of his engagement. That's all.
Excerpts from the CMA code of ethics:
Fundamental Responsibilities:
5. Practise the art and science of medicinecompetently, with integrity and withoutimpairment.
7. Resist any influence or interference that couldundermine your professional integrity.

 

[Hazel]

I'm sure we will get a clearer picture once LE asks for the public's help in identifying persons of interest in video footage, or perhaps asks people seen on video footage to come forward.
Or maybe LE starts collecting DNA like they did in the Sonia Varaschin case, to compare to the DNA profile they might have, or information on shoe/boot print like the work boots on SV's case.
Or perhaps asks the public to help identify a voice in audio tape, etc., etc., then we will have something to work on, to sleuth about, maps, images to "study" etc., etc.

If MM, the case cannot just fade away. :nono:

As it stands right now, and hearing so many saying the case will never be solved, and many others implying the scene was contaminated, others insinuating that evidence was compromised, others accusing LE of being incompetent, that they bungled the case from the start, so on and so forth, gives the impression that some are trying to tell the public to forget about it, that there's nothing to see here folks, just go on with your lives it was just them being targeted, leave your windows open, leave your doors unlocked, nothing to fear.
All those negative comments about how it will never be solved, come off as a preemptive measure. JMHO

 

[Grey-St]

To add to GreySts' posts, the TPS has openly stated the costs, time and man-hours needed for both the Sherman and BM murder cases has left them short financially. Pretty obvious that they are still working on it. Five months for such a huge amount of paperwork, alone, is not a long time never mind to find the perps.

Excellent posts GreySt.

Thank you JDG.

And I also don't think TPS would be putting in this amount of time and resources if they weren't committed to this being a targeted double homicide. They have good reason to believe what they believe, and are investigating thoroughly and accordingly.

 

[Grey-St]

Thank you for your reply deugirtini.
Not trying to put words in your mouth, but if I'm reading it correctly, you are saying:

That on Dec. 20, 2017 the private team [hired by family] were "immediately" able to come to a MM conclusion.

and

" ... eventually" the private team [hired by family] changed the police theory on the Shermans' deaths from murder-suicide to double homicide.

Eventually, meaning not immediately after, but most likely that "change" happened during that Monday, January 22, 2018 interview, right?​

I'm guessing we are on the same page. We will have to wait for the next updates, in order to better understand what happened.

I'm wondering if maybe this isn't how it transpired at all? We really don't know much.

 

[Grey-St]

Oh I understand that. I didn't think I stated or even inferred that "he", (whoever "he" is), acted unethically. What I did indicate is that some/many objective observers (and even possibly some WS posters!!) could perceive Dr Chiasson as lacking impartiality and objectivity in this matter, in view of the terms of his engagement. That's all.
Excerpts from the CMA code of ethics:
Fundamental Responsibilities:
5. Practise the art and science of medicinecompetently, with integrity and withoutimpairment.
7. Resist any influence or interference that couldundermine your professional integrity.

You have to remember though, that to this family and case, he is an outsider, thus being impartial. He wasn't hired to give a specific outcome, he was hired to do his job as a pathologist.

If it was a family member doing the examination, that would lack impartiality and objectivity. Dr. Chiasson did his job.

 

[kay74]

There were ligature marks on their necks not from the belts and wrists had been tied so how could it be murder/sucide?!? Did Barry strangle himself before he tied himself up with a belt? Saying it's M/S is the easy way out but it's not possible.

 

[ldlager]

You have to remember though, that to this family and case, he is an outsider, thus being impartial. He wasn't hired to give a specific outcome, he was hired to do his job as a pathologist.

If it was a family member doing the examination, that would lack impartiality and objectivity. Dr. Chiasson did his job.

I agree Grey-St.- Dr. Chiasson appears to have done exactly what he was hired to do.

 

[Satchie]

Apparently TPS did not bother to even know what was discovered during the private autopsy, or review/compare any differences there may have been between the two, or subsequently ask the original pathologist what his thoughts were on whatever was noticed during the 2nd autopsy. These are not my words, they are from a newspaper article from a highly respected crime reporter with the Toronto Star.

I really wonder who the informant is for the Star reporter, and what their agenda is in providing all this info, and how much they really know. I very much doubt any one in the TPS investigation is talking to a reporter. So how can the informant claim to know what the chief investigators knew/thought? How can the reporter therefore claim to know?

For example, at the beginning of the latest article:

Why? Chiasson wondered. The answer, provided to Chiasson by the first pathologist, and other pieces of information learned that day last December...

. https://www.thestar.com/news/canada...d-from-murder-suicide-to-double-homicide.html

So, evidently, both pathologists discussed the case together that day. Then, in all likelihood, the government pathologist turned around and discussed/continue to discuss it with the TPS chief investigators. Maybe there was new info, maybe there wasn't. Those senior people with the TPS would never respond to questions from a reporter, they'll neither confirm or deny what he's been told by the informant about what they theorized or knew then or now.

To me, the whole slant of the Toronto Star stories is to try to convince us that the private investigation saved the day, that TPS would have messed up if not for the private investigation. So who would be wanting to get that particular version of the story into the news? Possibly the media savvy Mr. Greenspan? Perhaps it's an attempt to counter this kind of story published earlier this year?

Private investigators costly, and unlikely to turn up anything more than police find

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/sherman-family-private-investigators-police-1.4498795

 

[deugirtni]

Throughout the Sherman threads, we have discussed various things, including the timing of this murder in relation to the home being for sale and the possible implications of that, etc.
I did not know until the most recent Star article that:
-not only was the home for sale on the open market with photos online, which offering apparently necessitated a lockbox being put on the home, and
-not only was the date of the murders only a short time before Honey was to depart for Florida (she was to arrive on December 18th), and
-not only did this apparently occur on a night when it seems no 'staff' were scheduled to arrive the following day (giving a lot of time for any perps to take their time in staging a scene in addition to doing the deed), but
-it also happened to be a time when the Sherman's trusted realtor, Gottlieb, just happened to be away in Florida herself, and so the home-showing was not co-attended by her personally, but instead by her 'assistant', when the buyer-agent showed the property to his client-couple.

Aren't those way too many coincidences to be considered coincidental?
--
"At 10:30 a.m., two real estate agents and a couple interested in purchasing the house arrived. The house was listed for sale by agent Judi Gottlieb. Gottlieb was away in Florida, and an other agent went in her place. The other agent present represented the prospective purchasers."
https://www.thestar.com/news/canada...d-from-murder-suicide-to-double-homicide.html

"The 12,000 square foot house is an “architectural modern masterpiece of poured concrete and steel construction,” according to an online real esate listing."
https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...sherman-sued-builders-of-north-york-home.html

 

[deugirtni]

-Sept 27th - Judge dismisses the Winters decade-long lawsuit

-Dec 6th - Judge awards costs to Barry Sherman in the amount of $300,000 to be paid by the Winters (https://www.macleans.ca/news/barry-...th-his-cousins-goes-on-weeks-after-his-death/)

-Dec 11th - Honey sends emails to friends letting them know she would be arriving at her Florida home on December 18th, with Barry joining her on Dec 25th and both of them stayin until January 12th

-Dec 12th - Honey misses a meeting at Bayshore, and apparently forgets to notify her regrets, however she responds immediately when Bayshore enquired if all was okay (maybe she was absorbed in planning the couple's holiday festivities?)

-Dec 13th - Honey attends a late afternoon meeting at Apotex along with Barry, to discuss details of their new home construction with the builder/architect; Honey leaves for home before 5pm; Barry apparently wrote a company email at 8:30pm; both returned home on this evening; it is reportedly believed the couple was killed on this date.

-Dec 14th - it seems this day went by without scheduled commitments, and Barry's absence at work went unphased

-Dec 15th - housekeeper, plant-waterer, personal trainer, and real estate showing all scheduled to happen on this day; bodies discovered by replacement realtor while accompanying another realtor's showing to prospective buyers

-Dec 18th - Honey scheduled to arrive in Florida for the holiday season

 

[ldlager]

I really wonder who the informant is for the Star reporter, and what their agenda is in providing all this info, and how much they really know. I very much doubt any one in the TPS investigation is talking to a reporter. So how can the informant claim to know what the chief investigators knew/thought? How can the reporter therefore claim to know?

For example, at the beginning of the latest article:
. https://www.thestar.com/news/canada...d-from-murder-suicide-to-double-homicide.html

So, evidently, both pathologists discussed the case together that day. Then, in all likelihood, the government pathologist turned around and discussed/continue to discuss it with the TPS chief investigators. Maybe there was new info, maybe there wasn't. Those senior people with the TPS would never respond to questions from a reporter, they'll neither confirm or deny what he's been told by the informant about what they theorized or knew then or now.

To me, the whole slant of the Toronto Star stories is to try to convince us that the private investigation saved the day, that TPS would have messed up if not for the private investigation. So who would be wanting to get that particular version of the story into the news? Possibly the media savvy Mr. Greenspan? Perhaps it's an attempt to counter this kind of story published earlier this year?


http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/sherman-family-private-investigators-police-1.4498795

Hi Satchie. The Star article indicates the source is “...people with close knowledge of the private investigation into the case..”
The use of the word “people” implies more than 1 person IMO. And as you surmise, they may be part of the private investigation team, or they have knowledge of the details. Like you, I doubt the source is TPS, I’m sure that they are being very careful after the commotion that was caused by the “no suspects at this time” announcement.

 

[ldlager]

I agree Grey-St.- Dr. Chiasson appears to have done exactly what he was hired to do.

Grey-St, I respect your depth of knowledge in this area. I have a question that perhaps you or other knowledgeable posters have the answer to. When the PI team contracted with Dr. Chiasson, would the terms of his engagement be simply to perform an examination and autopsy, and report the findings to the PI team? Or could the terms of his engagement be to perform an examination and autopsy to identify and report on factors or evidence that could support a finding of M/M?
I am asking this not to question the dr,s ethics- I am just wondering if an engagement with specific and targeted terms of reference like that can be accepted and undertaken by a pathologist/doctor.
I appreciate everyone’s expertise here. :thinking:

 

[deugirtni]

Grey-St, I respect your depth of knowledge in this area. I have a question that perhaps you or other knowledgeable posters have the answer to. When the PI team contracted with Dr. Chiasson, would the terms of his engagement be simply to perform an examination and autopsy, and report the findings to the PI team? Or could the terms of his engagement be to perform an examination and autopsy to identify and report on factors or evidence that could support a finding of M/M?
I am asking this not to question the dr,s ethics- I am just wondering if an engagement with specific and targeted terms of reference like that can be accepted and undertaken by a pathologist/doctor.
I appreciate everyone’s expertise here. :thinking:

The world seems to be falling apart and I completely get it how people may be only too willing to believe that not many people any more have morals, ethics, honesty, etc. And perhaps being 'sleuthers' and being interested in different cases might bring more to our attention and perhaps cast a darker pall on humanity in general. And it runs deep because we hear about corruption and compromises even from parties and bodies who are upheld and even bound to higher standards. I can see that it might be easy to have a negative outlook on reports, investigations, research, testimony, etc., from professionals who are hired to find truths. But I still believe that most people are honest and most professionals respect the ethics to which their professions are obligated.

Not that it matters what my beliefs are, but jeez. The PI team is comprised of esteemed, reputable professionals from the info I can gather. They used to hold the very same 'jobs' that the LE team now holds, except perhaps the PI team may have a lot more experience under their belts than some on the LE side. They get paid directly by clients now, for their expertise, rather than receiving pay for just showing up every day. They are putting their individual reputations on the line more now than they were when they were protected as employees. I haven't read anything to say that any of the team members would let go of their standards for the sake of money. They aren't just some little unknown holes-in-the-wall that were gathered from some far off country, specifically chosen for a reputation of providing what the customer wants, as opposed to the truth.

It's interesting because 'normally' around here, if a member disagrees with something regarding the police, the member will get accused of saying 'the police are therefore incompetent', and get lambasted by the majority, etc. Yet in this case, although police have changed their tune to agree with the PI team, some are not believing them, which is in fact intimating that police are all kinds of things, including being bribe-takers, liars, incompetents, etc.

To say that a contract would be dependent upon a certain finding would mean these professionals would not get paid for their work and time unless their findings went a certain way. Who would do that? Here is an article where another professional, independent PI is quoted:

"he always advises his clients that it's quite possible, following their own investigation, they will reach the same conclusions as the police.
"They need to know going in that the likelihood of us disagreeing with the police is far less than the likelihood of us agreeing with the police because [they] tend to do a very good job of policing death investigations."

Still, both King and Perry say they can offer an independent look from a team of professionals to ensure everything that was supposed to be done, was done, and the police conclusions were appropriate."

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/sherman-family-private-investigators-police-1.4498795

The family has only urged "police to conduct a “thorough, intensive and objective criminal investigation” into their parents’ deaths" (http://toronto.citynews.ca/2017/12/...utical-billionaires-found-dead-in-their-home/), after hearing on day one that police 'sources' were leaking murder/suicide to MSM. In light of that, it is understandable how the family may have lost confidence in police and since they have the money, why NOT pay for an independent investigation, which at the very least, will keep TPS on their toes, even if the two teams were to ultimately reach the same conclusions. jmo.

 

[ldlager]

The world seems to be falling apart and I completely get it how people may be only too willing to believe that not many people any more have morals, ethics, honesty, etc. And perhaps being 'sleuthers' and being interested in different cases might bring more to our attention and perhaps cast a darker pall on humanity in general. And it runs deep because we hear about corruption and compromises even from parties and bodies who are upheld and even bound to higher standards. I can see that it might be easy to have a negative outlook on reports, investigations, research, testimony, etc., from professionals who are hired to find truths. But I still believe that most people are honest and most professionals respect the ethics to which their professions are obligated.

Not that it matters what my beliefs are, but jeez. The PI team is comprised of esteemed, reputable professionals from the info I can gather. They used to hold the very same 'jobs' that the LE team now holds, except perhaps the PI team may have a lot more experience under their belts than some on the LE side. They get paid directly by clients now, for their expertise, rather than receiving pay for just showing up every day. They are putting their individual reputations on the line more now than they were when they were protected as employees. I haven't read anything to say that any of the team members would let go of their standards for the sake of money. They aren't just some little unknown holes-in-the-wall that were gathered from some far off country, specifically chosen for a reputation of providing what the customer wants, as opposed to the truth.

It's interesting because 'normally' around here, if a member disagrees with something regarding the police, the member will get accused of saying 'the police are therefore incompetent', and get lambasted by the majority, etc. Yet in this case, although police have changed their tune to agree with the PI team, some are not believing them, which is in fact intimating that police are all kinds of things, including being bribe-takers, liars, incompetents, etc.

To say that a contract would be dependent upon a certain finding would mean these professionals would not get paid for their work and time unless their findings went a certain way. Who would do that? Here is an article where another professional, independent PI is quoted:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/sherman-family-private-investigators-police-1.4498795

The family has only urged "police to conduct a “thorough, intensive and objective criminal investigation” into their parents’ deaths" (http://toronto.citynews.ca/2017/12/...utical-billionaires-found-dead-in-their-home/), after hearing on day one that police 'sources' were leaking murder/suicide to MSM. In light of that, it is understandable how the family may have lost confidence in police and since they have the money, why NOT pay for an independent investigation, which at the very least, will keep TPS on their toes, even if the two teams were to ultimately reach the same conclusions. jmo.

Thanks for your answer. I didn’t mean that the pathologist wouldn’t be paid unless their findings went a certain way. What I asked was can the investigator be hired to search and report on specific things. Specifically, can a doctor be hired not for the purpose of determining if a death is murder or suicide, but instead to identify and report simply on specific markings and medical findings that are consistent with, and would support, say, murder. Or, say, suicide? Is this a legitimate and accepted type of assignment for a pathologist in private practice to undertake?
I liken it to a company hiring an accountant not for the purpose of auditing all of a company’s accounting records, but instead to investigate and report on a specific set of circumstances, for example incidents of suspected fraud or defalcation. Accountants conduct these specific and or special purpose assignments all the time. Can a pathologist do the same?

 

[Kerry Winter]

4 hour polygraph with the Fifth Estate? Funny but I thought his meeting with police as reported by the Toronto Sun was 4 hours per a quote by Mr. Winter in Feb 2nd article. Four hours is a long time for a police interview as well as a polygraph and to have both be 4 hours is a quite a coincidence.

***Actually....4 and 1/2 hr interview. I’m NOT a suspect.

 

[Kerry Winter]

You have to remember though, that to this family and case, he is an outsider, thus being impartial. He wasn't hired to give a specific outcome, he was hired to do his job as a pathologist.

If it was a family member doing the examination, that would lack impartiality and objectivity. Dr. Chiasson did his job.

C’mon....Chiasson was hired/paid by Greenspan to conclude it was a double murder. Greenspan was retained by the Sherman family to dispel the theory that it was murder/suicide.
Try to see through the smoke and mirrors. If something doesn’t make sense or add up....try to read between the lines
****In over 5 months: one public announcement from the TPS...not a single update nor Q+A?!?!

 

[Kerry Winter]

I really wonder who the informant is for the Star reporter, and what their agenda is in providing all this info, and how much they really know. I very much doubt any one in the TPS investigation is talking to a reporter. So how can the informant claim to know what the chief investigators knew/thought? How can the reporter therefore claim to know?

For example, at the beginning of the latest article:
. https://www.thestar.com/news/canada...d-from-murder-suicide-to-double-homicide.html

So, evidently, both pathologists discussed the case together that day. Then, in all likelihood, the government pathologist turned around and discussed/continue to discuss it with the TPS chief investigators. Maybe there was new info, maybe there wasn't. Those senior people with the TPS would never respond to questions from a reporter, they'll neither confirm or deny what he's been told by the informant about what they theorized or knew then or now.

To me, the whole slant of the Toronto Star stories is to try to convince us that the private investigation saved the day, that TPS would have messed up if not for the private investigation. So who would be wanting to get that particular version of the story into the news? Possibly the media savvy Mr. Greenspan? Perhaps it's an attempt to counter this kind of story published earlier this year?


http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/sherman-family-private-investigators-police-1.4498795

👍 Media savvy Greenspan is an understatement!