Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #8

[deugirtni]

Makes no sense to me neither.

We have to make a distinction between the first and second pathologist, because we haven't heard anything about the first pathologist's conclusions from the TPS. JMO

All we've heard comes from sources from the PI"s team, so we don't even know what the first pathologist ruling is on manner of death. The TPS only revealed cause of death. MOO

The first pathologist has many years experience, is highly trained, knowledge of the most advanced techniques/technologies, has good eye sight, steady hands, and so on. MOO

:twocents:

RBBM
TPS did indeed reveal both COD and manner of death, in that COD was 'ligature neck compression', while manner was 'double homicide' as noted in TPS's press conference in late January? While that didn't specifically state that the pathologist ruled it was double murder, surely police would not have gone against what the pathologist's findings were?

 

[dotr]

I agree that we’re on the same page. I believe quite a few people on WS’s believe there’s a coverup.
The truth will come out....be patient. A fine US mag will write the story.

A few posts up thread, the idea of HS as the killer was mentioned, do you think there was any chance that could have happened?
speculation, imo.

 

[andreww]

A few posts up thread, the idea of HS as the killer was mentioned, do you think there was any chance that could have happened?
speculation, imo.

Honey Sherman died first, by several hours. No chance the killed BS.

 

[dotr]

Honey Sherman died first, by several hours. No chance the killed BS.

Duh, of course thanks!

 

[andreww]

respectfully snipped by me

"The private team came to the 'murder/murder' conclusion on December 20th, the same day as their autopsy was performed,"

In my humble opinion, I think what you just said, in what I respectfully bolded, is very accurate and important.

According to what we have been told, the first pathologist was present when the second pathologist arrived, and showed him pictures, etc. We don't know if he stayed the whole time.

How is it possible for the PI's team to conclude mm right after their hired pathologist carrying out the second set of autopsies, that very same day, Dec. 20th (one day before the funeral), without having any other forensic evidence of the crime scene(s)? Without having set foot inside the home and viewed the crime scene. Without having reviewed any surveillance videos, audio, alarm system, etc. Nor having any access to the boxes and boxes of evidence, that the TPS homicide and forensic team, professionally collected during the next 6 weeks?

This doesn't make sense to me, to conclude mm only based on "markings" that could have been self-inflicted. JMHO

"Is it possible that TPS could have been thinking the same thing all along, but wanting to investigate freely, without the murderer(s) knowing that it was suspected to be anyone other than BS?"

Most definitely, it's possible, but then why not include Barry's name in all the search warrants, etc., which they applied for not once but on various different dates, and all only contain Honey's name?

Perhaps there is a good reason for that, but for the time being, it doesn't make any sense to me. JMHO

Your post raises some very good points. First and foremost, the pathologist is not the person that decides if a death is a murder, a suicide, or natural causes. He simply reports what he finds, and how exactly the person died. In this case we know only that the COD was ligature strangulation, but that may have been present in the case of a murder or a suicide. The Pathologist's findings need to be combined with the crime scene evidence to tell the full story.

This makes me wonder about the conclusions drawn by the independent examiner. Specifically I wonder about his findings as they relate to Honey, specifically the laceration and pooled blood. My problem with this is that we already know that Honey was murdered, either by Barry or an assailant. The key here will be what injuries were found on Barry. There has been talk that their wrists were restrained with plastic ties. I am wondering what evidence there is of that? If there were plastic ties, why were they removed? And why the need for the jackets pulled back over their arms? We have also heard talk that the strangulation may not have been from the belts, and might have been from a rope or manual strangulation. I find this very strange as well as I have seen many autopsy photos of the results of a strangulation and it is alway fairly obvious if someone was strangled by rob or by hand. The markings are distinct. I just don't see how it could possibly be one or the other?

 

[ldlager]

Absolutely, however, in this case, some people believe that TPS is only giving lip service, and do not actually *believe* that LE believes it was a double murder.

Or that the first pathologist was possibly "convinced" to change what might have been his initial finding

 

[ldlager]

Honey Sherman died first, by several hours. No chance the killed BS.

Andreww, how do you know that HS died first, and by several hours? She was possibly home earlier, but I don't ever recall seeing info published , or confirmed by LE that she "died" several hours earlier?.

 

[JayFriend]

Why did cops investigating murders of Barry and Honey Sherman switch from murder/suicide to double murder scenario?

http://www.annrbrocklehurst.com/201...murdersuicide-to-deouble-murder-scenario.html

 

[dotr]

Why did cops investigating murders of Barry and Honey Sherman switch from murder/suicide to double murder scenario?

http://www.annrbrocklehurst.com/201...murdersuicide-to-deouble-murder-scenario.html

Nice shout out here for Hazel!

My sources tell me many cops are not happy about the switch, but so far none of them are talking or leaking. So Here’s what we know about the police’s about face on this investigation. (Big thanks to Hazel from Websleuths.com, who pulled it all together from this March 16 Star article):

 

[Grey-St]

Of course, anything is possible, but I just don't get why, if both their wrists were actually bound, why TPS wouldn't have declared this a double murder long before they did. We know several things, because TPS hasn't said a lot. We know they originally said there was no threat to the public. We know that production orders were processed only listing Honey as a victim. So it appears that right up until the funerals, TPS was still thinking murder/suicide. The only things that changed were that the mayor met with the police chief and the independent report was published. Did either of these occurrences change their minds? As far as I am concerned, the second the family became involved in the investigation, the case was compromised. I don't buy what the independent pathologist found and I don't buy what TPS are saying now.

In many ways I see this case as being similar to the Jonbenet Ramsey case. There is absolutely no evidence of an intruder, the crime scene has been staged, they hired their own investigators, and there are political figures getting involved, and police are bending over backwards to accommodate the family.

And the family, so vocal when it was suggested that this was a murder suicide, hiring a team of investigators, yet not a word since it was declared a double murder? If they were so certain that TPS had been wrong, wouldn't they continue to investigate independently? Wouldn't they press TPS to find the killer? Nothing but crickets. Almost like getting the answer they wanted was all they were looking for. Nothing to see here folks, everybody has gone home.

BBM. Why are you so quick to assume that this isn't happening? Just because you're not hearing something publicly? We've heard nothing from anyone, on all fronts. I would assume both parties are still investigating thoroughly to get to the bottom of this crime.

 

[Grey-St]

The first doctor did the autopsies at the same time, I mean one after the other. If he decided both were murdered after performing each autopsy, why only fill in the form and only sign off on honey? Why wait to sign off on Barry? I believe that honeys injuries and blood led him to conclude she was murdered. But Barry had marks from wrist bindings just like her, and presumably he also ligature marks around his neck, and internal injuries consistent with being strangled by something other than a belt. The second coroner found the same things and concluded murder, seemingly almost immediately. Yet the first doctor decided to wait 20 days? Given that he is highly trained, given that he is a professional, and given that it is such a high profile case, Stalling or putting it off makes no sense to me.

Maybe the first doctor was under some sort of pressure, like he had folks in his head saying it was likely a murder/suicide. Maybe he just wasn't quite sure for his own reasons, and feared getting it wrong, so held off declaring MOD for BS. Maybe the private doctor has been doing this a bit longer and feels much more confident in his decision making abilities and skills. Maybe after the two doctors spoke, the first one felt much more confident in making a final decision, in terms of having clarity/simplicity, ignoring the noise, and consulting another professional.

Sometimes I need that too, so I get it. JMO though.

 

[ldlager]

Maybe the first doctor was under some sort of pressure, like he had folks in his head saying it was likely a murder/suicide. Maybe he just wasn't quite sure for his own reasons, and feared getting it wrong, so held off declaring MOD for BS. Maybe the private doctor has been doing this a bit longer and feels much more confident in his decision making abilities and skills. Maybe after the two doctors spoke, the first one felt much more confident in making a final decision, in terms of having clarity/simplicity, ignoring the noise, and consulting another professional.

Sometimes I need that too, so I get it. JMO though.

Sometimes I need that too. But if he had issues or questions wouldn't it make more sense for him to reach out to his boss (who in this case is an experienced pathologist); or his coworkers (who are also experienced pathologists and medical doctors)? Or call in an independent expert from another city, another province, or the USA? Instead, he relies on a pathologist hired, at least indirectly, by the family???. To many, including many a reasonable observer, the family's pathologist could be perceived as having a vested interest in having the finding come out as MM. All JMO

 

[JDG]

To add to GreySts' posts, the TPS has openly stated the costs, time and man-hours needed for both the Sherman and BM murder cases has left them short financially. Pretty obvious that they are still working on it. Five months for such a huge amount of paperwork, alone, is not a long time never mind to find the perps.

Excellent posts GreySt.

 

[AllyJane]

<< Late Thursday, Winter sent The Fifth Estate[FONT=&amp] results of another polygraph test he says he arranged himself that showed the results were "inconclusive." >> [/FONT][FONT=&amp]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/barry-sherman-cousin-1.4514176?cmp=rss



[/FONT]

4 hour polygraph with the Fifth Estate? Funny but I thought his meeting with police as reported by the Toronto Sun was 4 hours per a quote by Mr. Winter in Feb 2nd article. Four hours is a long time for a police interview as well as a polygraph and to have both be 4 hours is a quite a coincidence.

 

[JDG]

Sometimes I need that too. But if he had issues or questions wouldn't it make more sense for him to reach out to his boss (who in this case is an experienced pathologist); or his coworkers (who are also experienced pathologists and medical doctors)? Or call in an independent expert from another city, another province, or the USA? Instead, he relies on a pathologist hired, at least indirectly, by the family???. To many, including many a reasonable observer, the family's pathologist could be perceived as having a vested interest in having the finding come out as MM. All JMO

All physicians have a code of ethics to follow and we have zero proof that he has failed to do so.

 

[Hazel]

then that could explain how/why Chiasson/pathologist#2 and 'all of them collectively' ("Present with Chiasson were three private investigators &#8212; Tom Klatt, Ray Zarb and Mike Davis &#8212; all former members of the Toronto Police homicide squad."), were immediately able to come to an MM conclusion.

&#8220;Photographs of both the scene and the autopsy, certain things struck all of them collectively and lead them to the conclusion that it was a double homicide,&#8221;

"In Chiasson&#8217;s examination, it was determined that they were likely not strangled with the belts. Instead, they were strangled with some other type of ligature, and the belts were then put around their necks."

"The deduction Chiasson and the private detectives made was that their wrists had been bound prior to death."

"Photos of the scene did not reveal any ropes or ties that could be responsible for the abrasions."

"The skin was missing from around Sherman&#8217;s wrists, ...The same had been done to Honey Sherman&#8217;s wrists.
Why? Chiasson wondered. The answer, provided to Chiasson by the first pathologist, and other pieces of information learned that day last December eventually changed the police theory on the Sherman deaths from murder-suicide to double homicide."

https://www.thestar.com/news/canada...d-from-murder-suicide-to-double-homicide.html

Thank you for your reply deugirtini.
Not trying to put words in your mouth, but if I'm reading it correctly, you are saying:

That on Dec. 20, 2017 the private team [hired by family] were "immediately" able to come to a MM conclusion.

and

" ... eventually" the private team [hired by family] changed the police theory on the Shermans' deaths from murder-suicide to double homicide.

Eventually, meaning not immediately after, but most likely that "change" happened during that Monday, January 22, 2018 interview, right?​

I'm guessing we are on the same page. We will have to wait for the next updates, in order to better understand what happened.

 

[Hazel]

RBBM
TPS did indeed reveal both COD and manner of death, in that COD was 'ligature neck compression', while manner was 'double homicide' as noted in TPS's press conference in late January? While that didn't specifically state that the pathologist ruled it was double murder, surely police would not have gone against what the pathologist's findings were?

I'm sorry, I'm not that familiar with pathologists' lingo. I meant to say "mechanism of death" or however it's called.
The TPS only mentioned COD (ligature neck compression) but haven't said if by means of the leather belts, ropes, plastics, nothing, only said that they were hung with leather belts. The LE didn't say if they believe the Shermans were dead before being hung or if they die as a result of the hanging. iirc
I was just trying to point out that all other details we've heard came from sources apparently from the private team. JMOO

 

[deugirtni]

Thank you for your reply deugirtini.
Not trying to put words in your mouth, but if I'm reading it correctly, you are saying:

That on Dec. 20, 2017 the private team [hired by family] were "immediately" able to come to a MM conclusion.

and

" ... eventually" the private team [hired by family] changed the police theory on the Shermans' deaths from murder-suicide to double homicide.

Eventually, meaning not immediately after, but most likely that "change" happened during that Monday, January 22, 2018 interview, right?​

I'm guessing we are on the same page. We will have to wait for the next updates, in order to better understand what happened.

Apparently TPS did not bother to even know what was discovered during the private autopsy, or review/compare any differences there may have been between the two, or subsequently ask the original pathologist what his thoughts were on whatever was noticed during the 2nd autopsy. These are not my words, they are from a newspaper article from a highly respected crime reporter with the Toronto Star.

 

[Kerry Winter]

Honey Sherman died first, by several hours. No chance the killed BS.

Agree.

 

[Kerry Winter]

Why did cops investigating murders of Barry and Honey Sherman switch from murder/suicide to double murder scenario?

http://www.annrbrocklehurst.com/201...murdersuicide-to-deouble-murder-scenario.html

Thx Ann.