Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #8

[Kerry Winter]

Sad state of affairs when TPS spends more than a month on this case, has every piece of evidence available to them, and they believe Honey was the only victim. Then they speak to a retired coroner who was HIRED BY THE FAMILY, and four days later they announce that this is definitely a double murder.

I'm sorry, but either TPS are just a group of incompetent fools, or something is definitely being covered up. I just cannot believe the current coroner would not spot any of these things, especially given that this is such a high profile case and those are the exact things he would have been looking for. Theoretically the younger coroner should be far more proficient than the older retired guy simply due to rapid advancements in science.

Nope, I still ain't buying it. Cops were right from the beginning and they are burying the truth at the request of the family.

Cops were right from the beginning!

 

[SeesSeas]

One of the producers at The Fifth Estate told me that they were waiting on an audio of Barry killing Honey. She also told me that a man who closely resembles Barry, (although he was covering his face with a jacket), turned away the camera...guess he forgot to shut off the audio,

^^snip & BBM

Anxiously awaiting the "audio of Barry killing Honey"!!
Hopefully, that audio will surface in my lifetime.

 

[Kerry Winter]

After a 4 hour polygraph on The Fifth Estate “GONG” show....my lawyer 2 days later arranged our own lie detector test.
I passed with flying colours in less than 45 mins.
The examiner asked me how l could fail?!?! How long was the test?
When l answered, he replied,
“Anyone would fail a 4 hour polygraph!”

 

[Kerry Winter]

Cops were right to spend time investigating, after all there were suspicious circumstances like countless lawsuits and the manner in which they were found. However, the best in the business (supposedly) seemed to be still under the impression that this was a murder suicide right up until after the funerals. So what happened to change their minds? Was it the independent report released by the family? Or was it the visit from the mayor to the chief of police after his meeting with the family at the funeral? The Sherman family is a cash cow for politicians on a municipal, provincial and federal level, and all it would take would be a threat to end that gravy train to change their minds.

Cash is king, and in this particular case nobody would be hurt by covering up the truth. Its a win/win for both sides.

Very good....Barry’s relationship with the provincial and federal Liberal party....yes, that implies J. Trudeau,his dinner guest while he was a registered lobbyist.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

After a 4 hour polygraph on The Fifth Estate “GONG” show....my lawyer 2 days later arranged our own lie detector test.
I passed with flying colours in less than 45 mins.
The examiner asked me how l could fail?!?! How long was the test?
When l answered, he replied,
“Anyone would fail a 4 hour polygraph!”

You admitted to lying on the Fifth Estate after the polygraph. I can dig up the quote tomorrow if needed.

I think it was on a radio interview in the days that followed the Fifth Estate broadcast you said the ‘second polygraph in your lawyer’s office’ first was inconclusive, you were again retested and you passed.

ETA: Why not release the report of questions, answers and the results of your second polygraph along with the name of the polygrapher?

 

[Lexiintoronto]

https://www.princeton.edu/~ota/disk3/1983/8320/832004.PDF
Article above states polygraphs take between 1-3 hours.

If you google it, the range seems to be between 1-4 hours.

 

[Hazel]

Very good....Barry’s relationship with the provincial and federal Liberal party....yes, that implies J. Trudeau,his dinner guest while he was a registered lobbyist.

First picture was taken inside BS's home, looks like the area where HS was dancing with instructor.

( 1 ) https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CNYc-qFWUAAM6CJ.jpg

source for pic:
https://twitter.com/rob_oliphant/status/636728260190203904

Second picture could have also been from inside his home, same date (Aug. 26, 2015), wearing same ties. I almost didn't recognize Barry in this picture.
The guy in the blue suit looks familiar, but can't place him.

( 2 ) https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CNX5fiRXAAAOKCI.jpg

Interesting comment in the twitter (source for pic):
https://twitter.com/karenmock/status/636689242681417728

 

[Tortoise]

I mentioned “holding hands” metaphorically. In other words, Barry set the stage for 2 lovers ending their lives together.
It is my belief that after my cousin killed Honey...he wanted to make it look like a suicide pact. They weren’t literally holding hands.

Someone wanted to set the stage for a suicide pact but in my opinion it wasn't Barry.

How easy it would have been for him to leave a few notes.

 

[ldlager]

First picture was taken inside BS's home, looks like the area where HS was dancing with instructor.

( 1 ) https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CNYc-qFWUAAM6CJ.jpg

source for pic:
https://twitter.com/rob_oliphant/status/636728260190203904

Second picture could have also been from inside his home, same date (Aug. 26, 2015), wearing same ties. I almost didn't recognize Barry in this picture.
The guy in the blue suit looks familiar, but can't place him.

( 2 ) https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CNX5fiRXAAAOKCI.jpg

Interesting comment in the twitter (source for pic):
https://twitter.com/karenmock/status/636689242681417728

Blue suit is I think Michael Levitt, MP for York Centre riding.

O/T- Re the second picture- look at the location of the light switches- so low on the wall, not even at Barry,s waist level. Either they are at the top of the basement stairs, or maybe designed for access from a wheelchair?

 

[andreww]

BBM Are you referring to the four Sherman children? Is this factual?

Simply put, the money the Shermans gave to charities, politicians, etc., was not done out of the goodness of their hearts. It was done to 1) reap tax benefits and 2) buy political favours that would be beneficial to them and their business. The heirs of the Sherman estate, presumably the family, would definitely be aware that money can indeed be used to get what you want, in this case, dignity after death.

 

[deugirtni]

The more I read about Ontario Pathologists errors, mistakes, omissions, and erroneous conclusions, the more I suspect they may have screwed this case up. All we really know is that they were strangled. Words like “likely” don’t impart any confidence IMO. Or perhaps it’s as simple as maybe both pathologists missed the bullet holes? :gaah:

That's what I've been wondering about.

There is nothing to say that the news reporters have been furnished with *all* of the information (from police, from pathology, etc), or even that the reporters' 'sources' have all the info - which was then imparted to the public.

I've been wondering about the 'pool of blood', reportedly underneath where HS was 'hanging', but yet no evidence of the blood having been shed whilst she was hanging there... and then the description of her lip and nose 'scratches', which injuries don't (for me anyway) impart a sense of having been enough to have caused the 'pool of blood' which seems to have been described in reports.

There is likely (and hopefully) all kinds of information which has been collected, which we will never know about until such time as there might come a criminal trial.

We usually never become informed about errors that are made (by police, by pathologists) until they might happen to come to light much later. In this case, the family was on it right away, which hopefully necessitated crossing all t's and dotting all i's right from practically the beginning. In this case, it seems that TPS was not given the opportunity to shine their light into only one neat and tidy little tunnel.

When police entered the scene, there was HS with facial cuts, hanging over a pool of blood, and police could find no evidence of forced entry. The immediate and logical (at the time perhaps) conclusion was that it was murder/suicide. With perhaps a lot more investigation, they would have determined it was murder/murder, by someone hoping to make it appear to be murder/suicide.

TPS took Wayne Millard's suicide as suicide, because at first glance, that is how it appeared. A bit more investigation would have revealed the weapon used was an illegal firearm, which would have more quickly led to the eventual murder charges against his own son. Things are not always as simple as they appear.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/matthew-ward-jackson-sentenced-1.4484762

Hamilton Police Service wasted 6 months waiting for results to prove that a homeless man was the murderer of Audrey Gleave while they kept him in custody - which results turned out to provide no such proof. So many months later, too much evidence and potential witness memory was lost to just start over in looking at a different perp, which perp continues to roam our streets.
https://kitchener.ctvnews.ca/charges-withdrawn-in-audrey-gleave-murder-case-1.652837

Laura Babcock's disappearance was not investigated nor taken seriously at all, because she was a drug user with mental health issues who was providing sexual services for hire, and telling people she was going on vacation. Turns out it was Dellen Millard who made her disappear. If this had been properly investigated, perhaps 2 other murders wouldn't have happened?
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/new...-laura-babcock-investigation/article19114719/

Bruce McArthur has been charged with his 8th murder so far - after how many years of being a serial killer in Toronto, and apparently his name coming up years ago as a potential suspect?
https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...-released-by-police-in-separate-incident.html

Tess Richey's own mother was the person who found her murdered body, only 2 blocks from where she was last seen. Police suspected it was an accidental death until the autopsy showed she died of 'neck compression'.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/toronto-police-probe-tess-richey-case-1.4431982

Police are overworked and short-staffed, and it's not really a big surprise that all things are not investigated to the extent that they should be. That police took the easy answers instead of pursuing all possibilities in the Sherman case isn't a big surprise either. In this case, the issues just happened to come to light early on. Jmo.

 

[matou]

When the bodies were first discovered by the realtor and the other staff present in the home were informed about it, did the staff run out of the home fearing a murderer was around or did they assume suicide and stay inside? I know we likely can't answer this question.

 

[deugirtni]

When the bodies were first discovered by the realtor and the other staff present in the home were informed about it, did the staff run out of the home fearing a murderer was around or did they assume suicide and stay inside? I know we likely can't answer this question.

If they had stayed inside, it couldn't be assumed that they assumed it was suicide. They (housekeeper and gardener person) had apparently been inside the house for more than a couple of hours before the bodies were found. I believe they would have assumed that murderers would have already left the scene. jmo.

 

[andreww]

Something is definitely being covered up....it must be very hard for the family and Jack Kay to accept/swallow that Barry snapped, killed Honey then hung himself.
However, the truth will come out. There werent multiple “phantom” murderers that targeted my cousin and his wife.
The Sherman’s billions don’t give them the right to rewrite history!

Kerry, as you know, you and I are on the same page. But do you think the truth will ever come out? Its been my experience, having followed "true crime" for many years, that the masses are content to believe far fetched scenarios over what seems to be the obvious solution. In this case, with the wealth, political connections and corporate battles, I think people are more likely to believe that this was an act of corporate treachery rather than a murder suicide. I also feel that any books that might be written on the subject will lean more on those kinds of theories just because it makes a better story.

In your opinion, do you think the truth will ever come out and be accepted as fact?

 

[deugirtni]

Well how do you explain that on all the search warrants only Honey was ever named as a victim? Police also said that there was no public threat, indicating that any perpetrator was either dead or in custody. We are hearing that these "marks" were caused by rope or manual strangulation, not by the belts, wouldn't that make it 100% clear that it was a double murder? Yet police claimed that they were still considering suicide?

Its pretty clear that cops were thinking suicide right up until the independent findings were published on the front page of all the Toronto papers, then within days TPS publicly announced that it was a double murder. Somethings not right here.

Maybe the thing that's not right here, is that the first pathologist did not declare (to our knowledge) that it was a murder/suicide, nor that it was a double murder. Obviously he did find the wrist abrasions on both victims, to suggest each victim's hands had been bound, and he thought that was important enough to have taken skin/tissue samples. Is it possible that the issue is completely with TPS, in that their first instinct upon entering the scene was 'murder/suicide', and they stuck with it? For them, they walked into a scene where they found Honey's face smashed up, but not Barry's, and no evidence of forced entry.

The first autopsy report perhaps could not conclusively state whether BS's death was suicide or murder, so TPS just kept running with their initial theory (at Barry's reputation's expense), until such time as a more decisive determination could be made? The private team came to the 'murder/murder' conclusion on December 20th, the same day as their autopsy was performed, but yet they didn't go public with it until exactly one month later. It seems like perhaps they gave TPS a full month to make their determination, based on evidence, and release the scene. When they still didn't/couldn't do that, perhaps that is when the private team decided to go public with their information. Then lo and behold, TPS is forced into making the effort to bother to speak to the second pathologist.... and a few days later, hold a press conference agreeing with the murder/murder theory.

Is it possible that TPS could have been thinking the same thing all along, but wanting to investigate freely, without the murderer(s) knowing that it was suspected to be anyone other than BS?

jmo

 

[andreww]

Maybe the thing that's not right here, is that the first pathologist did not declare (to our knowledge) that it was a murder/suicide, nor that it was a double murder. Obviously he did find the wrist abrasions on both victims, to suggest each victim's hands had been bound, and he thought that was important enough to have taken skin/tissue samples. Is it possible that the issue is completely with TPS, in that their first instinct upon entering the scene was 'murder/suicide', and they stuck with it? For them, they walked into a scene where they found Honey's face smashed up, but not Barry's, and no evidence of forced entry.

The first autopsy report perhaps could not conclusively state whether BS's death was suicide or murder, so TPS just kept running with their initial theory (at Barry's reputation's expense), until such time as a more decisive determination could be made? The private team came to the 'murder/murder' conclusion on December 20th, the same day as their autopsy was performed, but yet they didn't go public with it until exactly one month later. It seems like perhaps they gave TPS a full month to make their determination, based on evidence, and release the scene. When they still didn't/couldn't do that, perhaps that is when the private team decided to go public with their information. Then lo and behold, TPS is forced into making the effort to bother to speak to the second pathologist.... and a few days later, hold a press conference agreeing with the murder/murder theory.

Is it possible that TPS could have been thinking the same thing all along, but wanting to investigate freely, without the murderer(s) knowing that it was suspected to be anyone other than BS?

jmo

Of course, anything is possible, but I just don't get why, if both their wrists were actually bound, why TPS wouldn't have declared this a double murder long before they did. We know several things, because TPS hasn't said a lot. We know they originally said there was no threat to the public. We know that production orders were processed only listing Honey as a victim. So it appears that right up until the funerals, TPS was still thinking murder/suicide. The only things that changed were that the mayor met with the police chief and the independent report was published. Did either of these occurrences change their minds? As far as I am concerned, the second the family became involved in the investigation, the case was compromised. I don't buy what the independent pathologist found and I don't buy what TPS are saying now.

In many ways I see this case as being similar to the Jonbenet Ramsey case. There is absolutely no evidence of an intruder, the crime scene has been staged, they hired their own investigators, and there are political figures getting involved, and police are bending over backwards to accommodate the family.

And the family, so vocal when it was suggested that this was a murder suicide, hiring a team of investigators, yet not a word since it was declared a double murder? If they were so certain that TPS had been wrong, wouldn't they continue to investigate independently? Wouldn't they press TPS to find the killer? Nothing but crickets. Almost like getting the answer they wanted was all they were looking for. Nothing to see here folks, everybody has gone home.

 

[Tortoise]

After a 4 hour polygraph on The Fifth Estate “GONG” show....my lawyer 2 days later arranged our own lie detector test.
I passed with flying colours in less than 45 mins.
The examiner asked me how l could fail?!?! How long was the test?
When l answered, he replied,
“Anyone would fail a 4 hour polygraph!”

<< Late Thursday, Winter sent The Fifth Estate[FONT=&amp] results of another polygraph test he says he arranged himself that showed the results were "inconclusive." >> [/FONT][FONT=&amp]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/barry-sherman-cousin-1.4514176?cmp=rss



[/FONT]

 

[deugirtni]

Of course, anything is possible, but I just don't get why, if both their wrists were actually bound, why TPS wouldn't have declared this a double murder long before they did. We know several things, because TPS hasn't said a lot. We know they originally said there was no threat to the public. We know that production orders were processed only listing Honey as a victim. So it appears that right up until the funerals, TPS was still thinking murder/suicide. The only things that changed were that the mayor met with the police chief and the independent report was published. Did either of these occurrences change their minds? As far as I am concerned, the second the family became involved in the investigation, the case was compromised. I don't buy what the independent pathologist found and I don't buy what TPS are saying now.

In many ways I see this case as being similar to the Jonbenet Ramsey case. There is absolutely no evidence of an intruder, the crime scene has been staged, they hired their own investigators, and there are political figures getting involved, and police are bending over backwards to accommodate the family.

And the family, so vocal when it was suggested that this was a murder suicide, hiring a team of investigators, yet not a word since it was declared a double murder? If they were so certain that TPS had been wrong, wouldn't they continue to investigate independently? Wouldn't they press TPS to find the killer? Nothing but crickets. Almost like getting the answer they wanted was all they were looking for. Nothing to see here folks, everybody has gone home.

The family is no longer being vocal in the news, but that doesn't equate with the investigation (both of them) not continuing. I haven't heard anything about the private team being disbanded since they got their determination of double murder? And police now know they must eventually produce a suspect with their declaration of double-murder. You know that police don't advise the public of the results of their investigative work... every case goes quiet while we allow LE to do their jobs.

TPS saying immediately that there was no threat to the public - doesn't necessarily mean their belief was based only upon their thoughts that BS did the crime, but could also mean their experience told them (based on whatever evidence we haven't necessarily heard about) that this was a targeted crime which did not put others in the community at risk. It seems obvious that one way or another, for one reason or another, the scene was staged - most likely to look like something other than what it really was. Home invasions and robberies aren't likely to remove wrist ties, and/or hang people that have already been killed by strangulation, etc.

Lastly, Chiasson is an esteemed, experienced, professional who is bound by certain ethics. To think that he would finagle the autopsy findings in a criminal matter just because the family hired him in search of a specific answer, is just wrong. moo.

 

[casesensitive]

Deugirtni, your last two posts are excellent imo, and I agree with everything you have suggested.

 

[JayFriend]

If they had stayed inside, it couldn't be assumed that they assumed it was suicide. They (housekeeper and gardener person) had apparently been inside the house for more than a couple of hours before the bodies were found. I believe they would have assumed that murderers would have already left the scene. jmo.

I wonder how much the crime scene was compromised by all these people.