Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #9

[andreww]

Most times elderly couples are found dead together and there are no signs of violence or mayhem or forced entry, many individual police officers based on experience assume it is a murder-suicide and will likely describe it that way to others.
The Sherman crime scene fit this scenario and I believe many police officers and other interested parties jumped to the conclusion of a murder-suicide. If some 'senior' police officer was speaking to a reporter, he would have likely stated his opinion of M/S and the reporter would have published the story with that conclusion.
All this talk and discussion of a flip-flop by the TPS, secret sources, a cover-up of a M/S and so on, based on some cop saying it was M/S (off-the record); to my thinking is pointless.

Come on, you are acting like the M/S theory was out there for only a day before they got on track. Police investigated this case thoroughly for about six weeks, and all indications show that they believed it was M/S the entire time, until Susan Gomes announced it as a double murder.

 

[andreww]

Why were Barry and Honey Sherman hanging by the pool?

Because that was the easiest place for Barry to set it up. As he'd likely already killed Honey by strangling her, his plan to stage this as a double suicide necessitated him strangling himself. Most would use a closet or a door knob to do this, but he needed somewhere that two people could conceivably do this. The pool railing was the perfect height and and was spacious enough for two.

On the other side of the equation, what possible reasoning is there fo a double murderer to stage this as a suicide? This imaginary criminal was stealth enough to be in the house for hours, kill two people, move them both to a different part of the house, string them up and stage a suicide scene without leaving a trace that he was even there. Why not just shoot them both in the head and walk out the door? What possible good does staging a double suicide do, besides providing the opportunity to slip up and leave a clue that might reveal his identity?

 

[ABro]

Come on, you are acting like the M/S theory was out there for only a day before they got on track. Police investigated this case thoroughly for about six weeks, and all indications show that they believed it was M/S the entire time, until Susan Gomes announced it as a double murder.

We actually don’t know how long they thought it was murder suicide. That they changed their minds after talking to the second pathologist is the Greenspan/Donovan spin.

Six weeks is a long time to be at a crime scene that you believe is an obvious murder suicide.

 

[andreww]

I think Warmington has been around the block more than a time or two. Any reporter know a police officer isn’t allowed to touch the scene when deaths are deemed “suspicious”. Their role is to protect the bodies and the crime scene to ensure everything is undisturbed, while waiting for the coroner and forensic pathologists to arrive. Prior to the autopsy, which certainly wasn’t completed in the Sherman residence, no police officer would’ve been able to determine either the cause or manner of death by visual observation, the same day the bodies were discovered.

My theory is the source was not a police officer and both TPS and the media intentionally allowed the fabricated story to unfold until the official double homicide announcement but why, I’ll leave it at that. Other than to say during investigations of staged homicides, obviously the murderer/s intended the deaths to be perceived that way. Even if LE knew better, there’s no immediate benefit for LE to show their hand.

Lol, who's the conspiracy theorist now? Simple fact is that TPS and the press work together all the time. In the case of a reporter like Warmington, who has been around forever, he has likely developed a relationship with a number of TPS personnel. They likely have no problem feeding him the basics of a case so he can get his story done and get the scoop. They are friends. I'll tell you that on several occasions I've been on a crime scene and asked the guarding cop what happened. In all cases the officer has given me the basics of what happened. Cops are people too and people like to talk.

 

[ABro]

Because that was the easiest place for Barry to set it up. As he'd likely already killed Honey by strangling her, his plan to stage this as a double suicide necessitated him strangling himself. Most would use a closet or a door knob to do this, but he needed somewhere that two people could conceivably do this. The pool railing was the perfect height and and was spacious enough for two.

On the other side of the equation, what possible reasoning is there fo a double murderer to stage this as a suicide? This imaginary criminal was stealth enough to be in the house for hours, kill two people, move them both to a different part of the house, string them up and stage a suicide scene without leaving a trace that he was even there. Why not just shoot them both in the head and walk out the door? What possible good does staging a double suicide do, besides providing the opportunity to slip up and leave a clue that might reveal his identity?

It makes no sense to stage a double murder as it was done, I agree.

But it also makes no sense to stage a murder suicide as it was done.

Either way, we have a scenario that poses a lot of problems and doesn’t answer the question of why leave bodies hanging by the pool in that manner.

Your answer is a non-answer. If it was a simple murder suicide, there was no need to “set up” anything. They didn’t have to hang side by side.

What exactly was Barry trying to set up? And why bother?

The staging, no matter what happened, is beyond strange and designed to send a message.

 

[Tortoise]

If you are going to strangle someone, say on the ground floor of a building (because that is where you apprehended the victim/s), and want it to appear as a suicide, it is easiest to leave the victim/s on the ground floor and it is easiest to fix belts and bodies to a low railing than hoisting them up to a higher point of suspension. I don't think there is a message in their location by the pool.

 

[ABro]

If you are going to strangle someone, say on the ground floor of a building (because that is where you apprehended the victim/s), and want it to appear as a suicide, it is easiest to leave the victim/s on the ground floor and it is easiest to fix belts and bodies to a low railing than hoisting them up to a higher point of suspension. I don't think there is a message in their location by the pool.

Except it’s not going to appear as suicide when the wife’s beaten and bloody so there’s that. You didn’t fool anyone by hoisting her body onto a poolside railing. See the problem?

 

[Tortoise]

Except it’s not going to appear as suicide when the wife’s beaten and bloody so there’s that. You didn’t fool anyone by hoisting her body onto a poolside railing. See the problem?

True, but the additional wounding was probably not in the plan and occurred during an unforseen struggle. The killer botched the plan and decided to go ahead and let Barry appear to be the killer, probably due to not having another plan for the staging, IMO. I suspect he re-placed Barry's glasses on his face and posed his legs to disguise the attack.

 

[MistyWaters]

Come on, you are acting like the M/S theory was out there for only a day before they got on track. Police investigated this case thoroughly for about six weeks, and all indications show that they believed it was M/S the entire time, until Susan Gomes announced it as a double murder.

The first indication of a double homicide for me came when the autopsy results were announced, both died by the same cause of ligature neck compression and then immediately TPS announced the homicide team had taken the lead in the investigation. Various media reports began editing out references to m/s particularly the Globe and Mail, sort of interesting to observe as well.

The first couple days prior to the autopsy results being announced it seemed the anonymous report of blood on Honey’s face might’ve indicated she died as a result of head injury due to a sudden rage, a domestic violence incidence. I got the impression the autopsy might’ve been expediated, considering the unfounded rumours that were swirling.

Just my opinion but Kerry’s later media blitz including the 5th estate documentary promoting m/s probably turned even more people away from the possibility.

 

[ABro]

True, but the additional wounding was probably not in the plan and occurred during an unforseen struggle. The killer botched the plan and decided to go ahead and let Barry appear to be the killer, probably due to not having another plan for the staging, IMO. I suspect he re-placed Barry's glasses on his face and posed his legs to disguise the attack.

Wait. What was “the plan” as you see it? To kill Honey or to kill both?

 

[MistyWaters]

True, but the additional wounding was probably not in the plan and occurred during an unforseen struggle. The killer botched the plan and decided to go ahead and let Barry appear to be the killer, probably due to not having another plan for the staging, IMO. I suspect he re-placed Barry's glasses on his face and posed his legs to disguise the attack.

I agree. Just a normal day often doesn’t go as planned so it sure can’t be assumed killers plan of premeditated murder of two people proceeded exactly as intended. The crime scene revealed the outcome but we have no way of knowing how closely that resembled the original plan.

 

[MistyWaters]

Wait. What was “the plan” as you see it? To kill Honey or to kill both?

For all we know, KW could be right in that torture was involved. (I’ve always the alternate possibility he stated to be unusual, given KW’s adamant claim of how greatly Barry hated his wife)

“Winter reflected: 'Either way he had a terrible end. He either killed his wife and hung himself or he was targeted and Honey was punched out in front of him and his last moments must have been horrific.'..”
Canadian tycoon Barry Sherman 'killed wife then himself' | Daily Mail Online

 

[MistyWaters]

Lol, who's the conspiracy theorist now? Simple fact is that TPS and the press work together all the time. In the case of a reporter like Warmington, who has been around forever, he has likely developed a relationship with a number of TPS personnel. They likely have no problem feeding him the basics of a case so he can get his story done and get the scoop. They are friends. I'll tell you that on several occasions I've been on a crime scene and asked the guarding cop what happened. In all cases the officer has given me the basics of what happened. Cops are people too and people like to talk.

That’s not quite the same way I was thinking of the media and police “working together”. What I was referring to is if someone with nefarious purposes was attempting to feed misinformation to the media, the motivation of that person could also be directly connected to the crime. Therefore, the media working with police and allowing the information to be published could further serve as an investigative ploy.

As you say, I agree that in Canada our media is far more an ally to police forces rather than an adversary.

 

[WINDSOR]

Come on, you are acting like the M/S theory was out there for only a day before they got on track. Police investigated this case thoroughly for about six weeks, and all indications show that they believed it was M/S the entire time, until Susan Gomes announced it as a double murder.

Susan Gomes announced it was a double murder based on the six weeks of investigation. The police when doing the investigation do not begin with a solution. The purpose of an investigation is to find and evaluate evidence and come up with what probably happened. If the TPS 'knew' is was a M/S there would be no need for a six week investigation. The M/M declaration was based on the evidence.

 

[dotr]

Would anything change in our understanding of these peculiar deaths and apparent staging of the scene if, for example at gunpoint, BS was forced to murder HS?
imo, speculation.

 

[andreww]

It makes no sense to stage a double murder as it was done, I agree.

But it also makes no sense to stage a murder suicide as it was done.

Either way, we have a scenario that poses a lot of problems and doesn’t answer the question of why leave bodies hanging by the pool in that manner.

Your answer is a non-answer. If it was a simple murder suicide, there was no need to “set up” anything. They didn’t have to hang side by side.

What exactly was Barry trying to set up? And why bother?

The staging, no matter what happened, is beyond strange and designed to send a message.

BBM, not sure what you mean by that.

The reason there was a need to set up the double suicide staging was to conceal what Barry had done. Barry, likely angry about the move, argues with Honey and ends up killing her in a rage. Not wanting to face the allegations and inevitable headlines, he decides to end his own life, staging it to look like a double suicide. As Honey has already been strangled, he is locked in to going that route. Thus, he stages the act in the pool room.

 

[andreww]

Susan Gomes announced it was a double murder based on the six weeks of investigation. The police when doing the investigation do not begin with a solution. The purpose of an investigation is to find and evaluate evidence and come up with what probably happened. If the TPS 'knew' is was a M/S there would be no need for a six week investigation. The M/M declaration was based on the evidence.

Don't you grasp the fact that if TPS is in fact covering this up, Susan Gomes is likely just a patsy, saying what she has been instructed to say?

 

[Tortoise]

Wait. What was “the plan” as you see it? To kill Honey or to kill both?

Both, IMO.

 

[MistyWaters]

Don't you grasp the fact that if TPS is in fact covering this up, Susan Gomes is likely just a patsy, saying what she has been instructed to say?

In any large organization, press conferences are rarely if ever ad libbed, so absolutely her presentation was prepared in advance. As she stood at the podium she referred to a written script. That’s extremely common and the script was probably compiled through collective involvement by others including the head of Homicide, Police Chief, the TPS PR spokesperson, etc. No one representing an organization is ever a one man (or woman) show without a significant amount of behind the scenes collaboration, unless of course they’re the top dog.

 

[MistyWaters]

BBM, not sure what you mean by that.

The reason there was a need to set up the double suicide staging was to conceal what Barry had done. Barry, likely angry about the move, argues with Honey and ends up killing her in a rage. Not wanting to face the allegations and inevitable headlines, he decides to end his own life, staging it to look like a double suicide. As Honey has already been strangled, he is locked in to going that route. Thus, he stages the act in the pool room.

Strangulation using a ligature does not meet the definition of a sudden rage killing, particularly if there’s forensic evidence of wrist bindings on each of the bodies.