Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #9

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Looking at the Apotex and Empire signage and at the bars surrounding the Sherman swimming, pool and thinking ( a stretch perhaps) that all 3 look similar.
Wondering if the bodies were in some way staged ( BS's leg crossed over the other one) to mimic the appearance of those symbols?

Thinking of symbolism and HS's rumoured largest collection of diamonds in the world and the diamond earring ironically found in a gutter.
speculation, imo.

Canadian tycoon Barry Sherman 'killed wife then himself' | Daily Mail Online
rbbm.
31 Jan. 2018
"Winter said: 'He couldn't enjoy life. I asked him if there was anything in life he enjoyed. He said "making *advertiser censored**ing money."'

Yet he couldn't bear to spend it. His favorite restaurants were McDonald's and budget chain, Swiss Chalet - where he always ordered the special.

He drove a clapped-out old car, refused to buy a new television when his old one barely worked, bought cheap shoes and clothes and would sneak back into the theater when he went so that he could see a second movie for free.

In stark contrast, Winter said, Honey was rumored to have one of the world's largest diamond collections."

48C3F98100000578-5327391-image-a-14_1517415853066.jpg

4835D07300000578-5327391-image-a-4_1517414636070.jpg

48C3F8B000000578-5327391-image-a-10_1517415493500.jpg
 
They certainly would. However we have no idea if there are even any cameras in the immediate vicinity of the Sherman home.
I think I recall Gomes saying that yes, there was footage (during her press conference). Also, don't they have thousands of hours of footage to examine? I also recall it being reported that TPS was asking neighbours for their recordings, even over a bit, not like next door neighbours.
 
I think I recall Gomes saying that yes, there was footage (during her press conference). Also, don't they have thousands of hours of footage to examine? I also recall it being reported that TPS was asking neighbours for their recordings, even over a bit, not like next door neighbours.
Yes, I'm sure they've taken footage from every place within a couple of miles, specifically businesses on Bayview Avenue, however that doesn't mean that there is any footage close to the Sherman residence.
 
Yes, I'm sure they've taken footage from every place within a couple of miles, specifically businesses on Bayview Avenue, however that doesn't mean that there is any footage close to the Sherman residence.
I doubt if TPS would bother asking for recordings from locations from which the contents would be meaningless. This was also reportedly an area with a then-current problem of break-ins, and a wealthy neighborhood, so presumably at least some of the neighbors would have been concerned enough to have such security. jmo.
 
It is simply unfathomable to me that *especially* considering the public screwups of the TPS in recent times, the break-in problem of the Sherman neighbourhood at the time, AND knowing that they were being closely watched by the family's own PI team, that TPS would screw up so royally as to miss prints and collecting forensic evidence from the scene. Hopefully in the end we will discover there was a reason for all of this, which reason is NOT due to suffering from tunnel-vision that it was M/S.
 
It is simply unfathomable to me that *especially* considering the public screwups of the TPS in recent times, the break-in problem of the Sherman neighbourhood at the time, AND knowing that they were being closely watched by the family's own PI team, that TPS would screw up so royally as to miss prints and collecting forensic evidence from the scene. Hopefully in the end we will discover there was a reason for all of this, which reason is NOT due to suffering from tunnel-vision that it was M/S.
Clearly deciding it was a simple murder suicide in the beginning is what set TPS on that path.
 
Do you really need to fake a forced entry? Could not an intruder have simply knocked on the door and forced their way inside once opened? If Murder/Suicide, I have been wondering if Barry was trying to stage it as a double murder or a double suicide? Or, there is the possibility that he may have had a change of thought and changed the staging at some point? This might explain the supposed evidence of wrist bindings that had been removed. Perhaps Barry bound Honey's wrists, then one of his own, but found it impossible to tie his own wrists together effectively, so he abandoned the idea and opted for jackets instead?
Considering that it *seems* like TPS were basing their publicly declared initial thoughts that there was no suspect at large *because* there was no sign of forced entry and nobody else present (even though there were multiple people present upon discovery of the bodies!), I'd say there was a need to fake a forced entry, if one was trying to make it appear to be a murder that wasn't. Absolutely an intruder could have simply been let in by the owners, but, it seems TPS would require a break-in, if murder. Barry lost out on the opportunity to make it appear to be a double suicide when he messed with Honey's face, so that option seems to be off the table, doesn't it?
 
Yes, I'm sure they've taken footage from every place within a couple of miles, specifically businesses on Bayview Avenue, however that doesn't mean that there is any footage close to the Sherman residence.


In Susan Gomes news conference, she states that "outstanding persons were caught on surveillance video in the neighbourhood".
 
Wondering if the blood apparently seen on HS's face was as a result of the strangulation, as opposed to getting hit, ie. might she have involuntarily bitten her tongue?
imo, speculation.
 
Considering that it *seems* like TPS were basing their publicly declared initial thoughts that there was no suspect at large *because* there was no sign of forced entry and nobody else present (even though there were multiple people present upon discovery of the bodies!), I'd say there was a need to fake a forced entry, if one was trying to make it appear to be a murder that wasn't. Absolutely an intruder could have simply been let in by the owners, but, it seems TPS would require a break-in, if murder. Barry lost out on the opportunity to make it appear to be a double suicide when he messed with Honey's face, so that option seems to be off the table, doesn't it?
I agree, the injuries to Honey would just about rule out the idea of double suicide.

I guess police figured that, yes they could have let an intruder in, but that person would need to take a key to lock up when he left. If there are no missing keys, where does that leave us?

The jackets do seem to indicate restraint, however, if their wrists had indeed been bound, why the jackets? Again, does this suggest that Barry had at one point bound their wrists but shifted course when he could not manage to tie his own wrists, or he could not set up the belt with his wrists bound? I simply do not see why a murderer would remove the bindings? And if he did, why would he replace them with the jackets, presumably after they are dead?
 
Wondering if the blood apparently seen on HS's face was as a result of the strangulation, as opposed to getting hit, ie. might she have involuntarily bitten her tongue?
imo, speculation.
The only thing we know about the injuries to Honey are that the was a pooling of blood on the floor beneath her body. Nobody has ever stated that her wounds were to her face.
 
First @Kerry Winter, thank you for you candidness and willingness to share on this thread. And as a fellow person in recovery, keep up the good work in that regard. I can't imagine it's easy with all this going on.

I haven't posted on this thread in ages, probably because my opinion on it changes often, though I admit I lean towards double murder. I think my hesitation is influenced by the Rebecca Zahau case in the US, if any of you followed it (it has many many quite contentious threads here on WS if you care to research), but I will sum up with the similarities:
  • A bizarre murder scene that seemed staged (RZ was found naked hanging from a 2nd floor balcony)
  • A contentious initial manner of death (Ruled suicide initially based almost entirely on the word of the only other person in the house)
  • A wealthy, influential family (RZs boyfriend was a billionaire pharmaceutical CEO)
In her case, LE took the word of her boyfriend's brother at face value, were clearly influenced by the boyfriend's position in the community to cover up the bizarre death, and investigated it as a suicide with complete blinders. I won't say more because some disagree, but her boyfriend's brother, after many years, private investigations by her family, and public pressure, was found culpable of her murder in a civil lawsuit.

Anyway, at the beginning of this case, I was very adamant that this was not a murder-suicide. But the more I learned about Barry and his character, and then how the very wealthy family reacted and seemed to want TPS to find otherwise, I admit to becoming a bit less certain. It's uncharacteristic of me to take a contrary position, but I've seen how money and influence and ambiguous evidence can influence even those who should be impartial in ways they may not even be aware of (subconscious bias - JonBenet Ramsey anyone?). That said, I do think murder/suicide is highly highly unlikely but not 100% ready to rule it out.

In the absence of actually finding something like DNA evidence to bring charges against a perpetrator, evidence that would be useful in helping me rule out murder/suicide would be:
1. Being shown that their cause of death or the positions of the bodies were physically impossible to recreate with one actor; that being BS in staging the M/S;
2. That hanging by belt was NOT BS's COD - I know those of you have concluded it wasn't, but I'm not sure

So I'm almost there, but not quite. Of course I realize that the above will remain unknown until an actual trial or close of the case. I also think that if it was a double-murder it was not done by professionals for business-related or other reasons like that. They wouldn't bother with this elaborate, ambiguous staging - they'd be in and out, leave no trace, probably use untraceable weapons, they'd have no reason to not make it look like a murder, because they're confident in their ability to cover their tracks. On the other hand, this double murder was messy, and up-close and personal. Agree with those that say it speaks of revenge, which could still include a business deal gone bad, getting out of money owed, etc.

As far as suicide - there might not have been signs and it might not make sense to us, but after reading here and having people close to me who have lost people to suicide, I find it is almost always senseless, inexplicable, and notes aren't always left (I think it's only like 30-40% of the time).

So I remain on the fence, with my legs dangling over into double murder territory. The complexities of this case make me suspect that we are in for a long wait either way. I hope I'm wrong.
 
Looking at the Apotex and Empire signage and at the bars surrounding the Sherman swimming, pool and thinking ( a stretch perhaps) that all 3 look similar.
Wondering if the bodies were in some way staged ( BS's leg crossed over the other one) to mimic the appearance of those symbols?

Thinking of symbolism and HS's rumoured largest collection of diamonds in the world and the diamond earring ironically found in a gutter.
speculation, imo.

Canadian tycoon Barry Sherman 'killed wife then himself' | Daily Mail Online
rbbm.
31 Jan. 2018
"Winter said: 'He couldn't enjoy life. I asked him if there was anything in life he enjoyed. He said "making *advertiser censored**ing money."'

Yet he couldn't bear to spend it. His favorite restaurants were McDonald's and budget chain, Swiss Chalet - where he always ordered the special.

He drove a clapped-out old car, refused to buy a new television when his old one barely worked, bought cheap shoes and clothes and would sneak back into the theater when he went so that he could see a second movie for free.

In stark contrast, Winter said, Honey was rumored to have one of the world's largest diamond collections."

48C3F98100000578-5327391-image-a-14_1517415853066.jpg

4835D07300000578-5327391-image-a-4_1517414636070.jpg

48C3F8B000000578-5327391-image-a-10_1517415493500.jpg

I don't think Kerry Winter would be in any position to speculate about Honey's diamond collection. He had been estranged from Barry and Honey for over a decade if I'm not mistaken and I highly doubt that he would have any idea as to the contents of her jewelry box, or knowledge of the value of anybody else's collection. Safe to say she had some good jewelry, but the biggest collection in Canada? Also, was the earring found on the driveway expensive jewelry or costume jewellery?
 
In the absence of actually finding something like DNA evidence to bring charges against a perpetrator, evidence that would be useful in helping me rule out murder/suicide would be:
1. Being shown that their cause of death or the positions of the bodies were physically impossible to recreate with one actor; that being BS in staging the M/S;
2. That hanging by belt was NOT BS's COD - I know those of you have concluded it wasn't, but I'm not sure

I can assure you that I could accomplish #1 in very short order. People are talking like this is an impossible feat, but it is really not as complicated as it seems.

As for your second point, I agree. Any results we have heard about have kind of been combined, not being specific about result pertaining to Honey and Barry individually. Of course, if this was M/S, Honey would have been likely strangled elsewhere and then hung by the pool (secondary injuries), while Barry should only have the belt marks. This would have been the only way that Barry could stage it. However, on the double murder front, the idea that both were killed elsewhere, then hung by the pool simply does not make any sense whatsoever. Why not just kill them both by hanging on that railing if that is what you want people to believe is what happened?
 
Looking at the Apotex and Empire signage and at the bars surrounding the Sherman swimming, pool and thinking ( a stretch perhaps) that all 3 look similar.
Wondering if the bodies were in some way staged ( BS's leg crossed over the other one) to mimic the appearance of those symbols?

Thinking of symbolism and HS's rumoured largest collection of diamonds in the world and the diamond earring ironically found in a gutter.
speculation, imo.

Canadian tycoon Barry Sherman 'killed wife then himself' | Daily Mail Online
rbbm.
31 Jan. 2018
"Winter said: 'He couldn't enjoy life. I asked him if there was anything in life he enjoyed. He said "making *advertiser censored**ing money."'

Yet he couldn't bear to spend it. His favorite restaurants were McDonald's and budget chain, Swiss Chalet - where he always ordered the special.

He drove a clapped-out old car, refused to buy a new television when his old one barely worked, bought cheap shoes and clothes and would sneak back into the theater when he went so that he could see a second movie for free.

In stark contrast, Winter said, Honey was rumored to have one of the world's largest diamond collections."

48C3F98100000578-5327391-image-a-14_1517415853066.jpg

4835D07300000578-5327391-image-a-4_1517414636070.jpg

48C3F8B000000578-5327391-image-a-10_1517415493500.jpg

You are always offering so smart ideas, dotr!
I made a little drawing to understand the symbolism .... HS sitting to the left (we don't know) and her legs spread wide like an "A"; BS sitting beside her to the right (we don't know) and his legs laying one on top of the other like a "X" - do you imagine something like that? The left part of the railing like an "E"?
 
The only thing we know about the injuries to Honey are that the was a pooling of blood on the floor beneath her body. Nobody has ever stated that her wounds were to her face.
True, we do not know for sure what happened to HS, this information about the bleeding is possibly provided by a "source ". imo, speculation.
Jan 20, 2018
Private investigators believe Toronto billionaires Barry and Honey Sherman were murdered, source says | CBC News

"The team of private investigators believes that the Shermans were, in fact, killed on Dec. 13, two days before they were found. This conclusion is based on the fact that Honey was wearing the same clothes she was last seen in, on Dec. 13, according to the source.

Private investigators also believe that Honey struggled with her killer or killers. She had cuts on her lip and nose, and was sitting in a pool of her own blood when she was discovered. However, there was comparatively little blood apparent on her upper-body clothing, suggesting that she had been face-down on the tile, bleeding, for some time before being bound to the handrail in an upright position, the source said."
 
Looking at the Apotex and Empire signage and at the bars surrounding the Sherman swimming, pool and thinking ( a stretch perhaps) that all 3 look similar.
Wondering if the bodies were in some way staged ( BS's leg crossed over the other one) to mimic the appearance of those symbols?

Thinking of symbolism and HS's rumoured largest collection of diamonds in the world and the diamond earring ironically found in a gutter.
speculation, imo.

Canadian tycoon Barry Sherman 'killed wife then himself' | Daily Mail Online
rbbm.
31 Jan. 2018
"Winter said: 'He couldn't enjoy life. I asked him if there was anything in life he enjoyed. He said "making *advertiser censored**ing money."'

Yet he couldn't bear to spend it. His favorite restaurants were McDonald's and budget chain, Swiss Chalet - where he always ordered the special.

He drove a clapped-out old car, refused to buy a new television when his old one barely worked, bought cheap shoes and clothes and would sneak back into the theater when he went so that he could see a second movie for free.

In stark contrast, Winter said, Honey was rumored to have one of the world's largest diamond collections."


4835D07300000578-5327391-image-a-4_1517414636070.jpg

48C3F8B000000578-5327391-image-a-10_1517415493500.jpg
 
Hello Dotr and FromGermany. I think you are both onto something! My gut feeling from Day 1, has been:
1. No forced entry, so the Shermans' knew the perp(s) ;
2. Injury to Honey (mouth) to shut her up;
3. Bodies staged to send a message of horror and payback for what this person has been put through

I am now ready to go with the theory that this was someone who lost a lot of money/or time investing in this Co. which has destroyed this person's life. Maybe a former partner or previous friend.

Just my
 
The only description of how HS was found differs from the article recently posted. I wonder which one is accurate.

-Private investigators also believe that Honey.... had been face-down on the tile, bleeding, for some time before BEING BOUND TO THE HANDRAIL, IN AN UPRIGHT POSITION, the source said."
bbm

- Honey, who had a blond bob and an athletic frame, WAS SLUMPED ON HER SIDE and appeared to have been struck on her face.

The unsolved murder of an unusual billionaire
 
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